Chuckg Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Batman knocking out superman with a head butt for example.... i cant concieve of any amount of skill being able to hurt someone who can withstand nukes. I am unaware of this actually happening in comics ever. Next time you want to use an example, how's about one that you didn't make up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorsch Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Yes i made it up to highlight what i consider a absurdity. It was merely a example of what i find silly, such as Va Armorr throwing/blocking a lightspeed superboy who attacked with a move through from thousands of miles away ( this apparently did happen ) but dosent change one iota the point about skill achieving impossible feats. Change the name from batman to Karate kid, if that make you feel better about my example ( and i bet he has actualy done that at sometime ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haerandir Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist I am unaware of this actually happening in comics ever. Next time you want to use an example' date=' how's about one that you didn't make up?[/quote'] I believe that his point is that it's an example of something he would be unable to accept, not that he's seen it. As such, the fact that it's made up is irrelevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist *puzzled* He uses it as an example of what he wouldn't accept, while also saying that he finds many comics today unacceptable. But even the comics he finds unacceptable haven't gone as far out as where he set his benchmark, so ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Change the name from batman to Karate kid' date=' if that make you feel better about my example ( and i bet he has actualy done that at sometime )[/quote'] Actually, no, he hasn't. See what happens when you make stuff up and try to use it as an actual example? What credibility your arguments originally had is now rapidly dying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorsch Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Chuchg we seem to be at cross purposes here. I dont maintain that my examples have ever hapened in comics as i dont own or havent read all of Karate Kids stuff and dont even claim to be a expert on current comics. Val Armorr is a relativly normal person physically, maybe cap level str and tougness, but hes is often quoted as doing stupifyingly impressive feats against people who are faster tougher stronger by about a milion times than he is (DC power scales are quite large from what i gather). Im not trying to be contentious, but why is it okay for KK to do this type of stuff over in legion comics when even batgod would quail at such chalanges in JLA. Also no one has realy steped up and cried foul that KK was ineligble for this poll along with deathstroke (who by the way has a power of 100% of his mind focused on tasks rather than 10%, as i understand the chacter, which is similar to batgirls "non metagene gift". i doubt deathstroke tests positive either) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Chuchg we seem to be at cross purposes here. I dont maintain that my examples have ever hapened in comics as i dont own or havent read all of Karate Kids stuff and dont even claim to be a expert on current comics. ... so, you don't know the characters, you don't know the comics, you don't know much of anything current, and yet you think that *you* should be the one setting the benchmarks? What. Ever. I give up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorsch Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist I was merely making a point. My knowledge or lack therof of character or comics does not detract from the actual argument i was making. ( and i do have alot of comics ) "What. Ever. I give up." also sums up my feeling of your position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haerandir Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist *puzzled* He uses it as an example of what he wouldn't accept, while also saying that he finds many comics today unacceptable. But even the comics he finds unacceptable haven't gone as far out as where he set his benchmark, so ??? He's arguing a general principle ("Any event which is outside the demonstrated abilities of an 'unpowered' human must result from 'powers' rather than 'skill'.), and positing an extreme hypothetical example in an attempt to clarify his point ("For instance, if Batman WERE to beat Superman in hand-to-hand without recourse to technology or Kryptonite, that would necessitate him to have developed 'powers', or be attributed to bad writing."). It's not a benchmark at all, it's an extrapolation. Ultimately, the disagreement arises from how people conceive of the dichotomy between 'power' and 'skill', rather than any specific comics panels. Both you and Vorsch believe that a clear dividing line can be placed between 'power' and 'skill', but you're using different criteria for how to determine the location of that line. My own opinion is that, in the superheroic milieu, no such clear distinction can be made, which is one reason I haven't posted ballots in these threads. Essentially, given that you two are starting from different premises and moving in different directions, there can be no agreement unless someone changes their fundamental assumptions and goals. I've generally agreed with you in other disputes over factual matters, but this is a question of philosophy, not phenomena. Rather than derail the thread, I would encourage you both to let it go at that. Which it appears you have. Yay! Ignore me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist I'm late getting into this thread. One character I didn't see mentioned is Tigress of the Injustice Society. She was able to hold her own against Wildcat in one of the recent JSA stories. She had some cracked ribs, but she put him down, I believe. Regarding the Batman/Shiva relative ability thing, I once read that the Batman editors generally felt that in a fight between the two of them Batman would win 4 out of 10 times. Shiva's just that good. Not sure if that is still true, since this is from a few years back, when Shiva was involved in Bruce's retraining after recovering from his broken back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist When Bruce was recovering from his broken back, Shiva could've whipped him *ten* out of ten times, until he finally got back in shape. Dude was seriously hurtin' for a while. I don't recall the editors saying this. Linkage, if possible? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist When Bruce was recovering from his broken back, Shiva could've whipped him *ten* out of ten times, until he finally got back in shape. Dude was seriously hurtin' for a while. I don't recall the editors saying this. Linkage, if possible? Here is one link I found, but I don't have a direct link to any editor quoted as saying this. It is just hearsay, but I do remember reading this same thing in one of the editorial pages at the back of one of the Batman comics several years back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist There's a lot of hearsay going around. Now that you jog my memory, I vaguely recall hearing a '6 of 10' estimate... but from a *Wizard magazine* editor, not a DC editor. And Wizard, natch, don't know its *** from its elbow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Well, wrt to the "superhuman" thing, there are plentiful examples from anime/manga and Hong Kong comics of martial artists whose strength and agility levels are clearly superhuman, but who derive said levels of ability from "training" and manipulating their "chi/ki". Almost all of the human fighters in DBZ, Kenshiro from Fist of the North Star, the cast of Ranma 1/2, etc etc. Seems to be a judgment call as to where one draws the line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist If you draw the line to exclude funky chi powers, then you exclude all the wuxia SFX ever written -- and if you're throwing *that* out, then what kind of 'comic book martial arts' tourney *is* this? It'd be like holding a 'comic book speedster' contest and then outlawing everybody above Black Racer and Speed Demon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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