Chuckg Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist > Are you even paying attention to what I am saying? Yes. I am also pointing out that what you are saying is dead wrong. > I have claimed that Batman and Prometheus were more or less evenly > matched. NEITHER of them were getting anyplace in hand to hand combat. > Oh they landed a few shots but neither man was going down anytime soon. Really? Look up. Please note that that page is pretty much the sum total of the hand-to-hand fight. (edit) There was at best a panel or two of punching before Prometheus aborted to Wrist-Blaster, and there may not have been *any*... I'll check. In it, Prometheus gets in the first punch on Batman... and Bruce then proceeds to repeatedly bang on his face like Prometheus is the guest of honor on Pinata Day. Very next page (which isn't scanned yet), Prometheus is desperate enough that he stops trying to fight hand-to-hand and uses his wrist gun to knock Batman across the room and away from him. That's when Bruce pulls out the helmet trick. But this is what *I've* been saying. Prometheus was clearly losing the HTH fight. *He* had to cheat, by pulling a gun, just to save his butt. Batman then pulled out the helmet gimmick to *counter* Prometheus' cheat. Edit -- btw, note in this scan that Prometheus, immediately after knocking Batman away with the wrist-gun blast (check out the sparks from that breastplate), is too wounded to immediately follow up his shot. He's actually having to stand there and take a Recovery, ordering his helmet to pop painkiller endorphins, because Bruce has beaten him that bad. Hence, your statement of 'could have gone a long time' is wrong... four panels worth of beating and Prometheus was already so far into the hurt locker that he's *literally* reaching for the morphine. http://pictures.greatestjournal.com/userimg/4628912/536521 But that fight was in no way even, unless you consider 'get in one shot and then get punched repeatedly back while unable to successfully defend yourself' as 'even'. Edit -- and btw, your statement of 'both men wanted a quick victory' is wrong. Prometheus specifically announced his intention to slowly beat Batman to death at the start of the fight, and Batman could have pulled the helmet cheat at any time, yet deliberately chose HTH first. They *both* wanted that mano-a-mano rematch. And Prometheus switched to the gun only because he was losing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist I don't know which scans you're seeing there Chuck because the story clearly indicates that the fight was a close one. But hey, Grant Morrison could post on the boards and say that and you would say he's wrong wouldn't ya Chuck? Heck the entire DC Editorial Staff could come on this board and say the fight was close and you wouldn't listen. So I shall merely pat you on the head and tune you out in the hopes that you and your annoying opinions will go away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist So get your polls in quickly folks! This thread might not make it to sundown! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prometheus Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist A couple of things: 1) Prometheus is getting worked in the second fight. Bats cuts him, tags him with his own club (the anvil smasher), and apparently breaks his jaw. Batman is holding him up by the collar when Prometheus fires a rocket into his chestplate. Honestly, Bruce was taking that match. 2) We don't know how the first Batman/Prometheus fight went down. Maybe Bats put up a good fight that came down to the wire, maybe Prometheus mopped the floor with him. We see the beginning and the end, but the rest happens off panel. And Prometheus is the one still standing. 3) Prometheus gets the one-punch-drop on Huntress cleanly just before the second fight, no hypnosis required. It's a surprise attack, no doubt, but Huntress is on alot of top 10 lists... I'd say he's really good without the gadgets, just not top ten. With the gadgets, he's downright terrifying. (On a related digression, anyone else notice the similarity between Prometheus and another billycub and wrist rockets armed hero hunter?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zed-F Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Let's fix that Richard Dragon problem. 1. Richard Dragon. End of list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist I don't know which scans you're seeing there Chuck because the story clearly indicates that the fight was a close one. But hey, Grant Morrison could post on the boards and say that and you would say he's wrong wouldn't ya Chuck? Heck the entire DC Editorial Staff could come on this board and say the fight was close and you wouldn't listen. So I shall merely pat you on the head and tune you out in the hopes that you and your annoying opinions will go away. Prepare to eat these words, Twilight. Finally got home and to my scanner. http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/5139/page16hm.jpg http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/7980/page29uf.jpg http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/6817/page30bt.jpg Ooo, what's that we see on image #2? Could it be, Prometheus' limp and beaten body hanging in Batman's arms? Behold, Prometheus decisively defeated in HTH combat until he pulls out the wrist-gun cheat at the last second. And man, does he look thrashed in that middle image or what? No *wonder* he had to take a recovery and pop painkillers. Man couldn't even talk intelligibly until he slipped himself some endorphins to kill the pain. Twilight, it's not just that you remembered it wrong -- we all do that from time to time. It's that you were so damn offensively blatant about calling me a liar and a fanboy, while all the time, you were the one who was off base. Like, you couldn't just wait for the scans I said I was going to post around an hour ago? Or go look at the issue again yourself? Just to be sure? *Before* hauling out the flameboy attitude, that is? At any rate, you were wrong, enjoy being such. Edit -- issue is JLA vol. 3 #38. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Thanks Zed I'll make sure your ballot gets counted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorsch Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Id just like to point out that i think the two top contenders for the best MA are ineliable because of the "no powers" criteria. Shiva and Batgirl have a superpower that defines them as impossible to beat, read body language thing. This is a power, as was pointed out earlier when Batgirl lost this ability she became average, hence her actual trained skill combined with dex str and tougness is not up to beating any of the other top 10. She has a power that lets her win, which apparently shiva uses as well. I understand alot of people will maintain its not a power, but then most wuxia abilities are merely training even though there obviously superpowers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marketeer Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist *Takes a look at the links* "Tssa"? "Chuuh"? ...it's like watching the 60s comics again. I can't wait for a panel to have Batman hitting someone, with the narration "Bort!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st barbara Posted January 21, 2006 Report Share Posted January 21, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Interesting fight scenes in "Birds Of Prey no 90" with "Deathstroke" VS "Black Canary", "Huntress" and "Lady Blackhawk". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Interesting fight scenes in "Birds Of Prey no 90" with "Deathstroke" VS "Black Canary"' date=' "Huntress" and "Lady Blackhawk".[/quote'] Lady Blackhawk? She new? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 21, 2006 Report Share Posted January 21, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Well, we have to wait until next month and BATGIRL #73 to know for sure, but BATGIRL #72 kinda hints that all points regarding Cassandra Cain are about to become academic. In the 'she's probably dead' kinda way. She got stabbed through the heart by her psychotic 'older brother' (the first, and only partly successful -- physically adept, mentally completely psychotic -- result of David Cain's little train-kids-to-be-superhuman-killers project). The only dramatic tension is 'Will Lady Shiva throw her in a Lazarus Pit next issue, and if she does, will it work?' (note -- this being the fastness of the Society of Assassins, one of Ra's Lazarus Pits is right next door, we saw it in BATGIRL #71.) However, since I think the title is being cancelled next month, that kinda answers the question. The stabbing (as Cassandra pushes somebody else(*) out of the way to save her life): http://img75.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bg72172fx.jpg The dying(?) words: http://img294.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bg72191cf.jpg The unanswered question... http://img294.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bg72218zy.jpg (*) Cassandra was busy trying to smuggle out a couple members of the Society of Assassins who didn't wanna be assassins no more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st barbara Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Lady Blackhawk? She new? I think that she might be an old (60's ?) minor character who has been revived and put in "Birds Of Prey" with the rest of the non super powered girls. (Yes I know that Dinah still has the "Canary Cry", but it is a pretty minor power that she doesn't use it that much). Tends to use guns and (possibly in accordance with the Comics Code) does dumb things like warning "Deathstroke" that she is going to shoot him, and being way too close to him at the time ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Gandhi Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Lady Blackhawk? She new?Isn't she that pilot who's working for Barbara? I recall the last issue of BoP I read a couple months ago had them in a plane with a woman wearing a Blackhawk on her jacket flying them around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Yup, she's the pilot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Relation to one of the WWII Blackhawks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casualplayer Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Relation to one of the WWII Blackhawks? Actually she was one of the WWII Blackhawks. Got Zero Hour-ed into the present from the '40's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fbdaury Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Let's fix that Richard Dragon problem. 1. Richard Dragon. End of list. Uh, no- even in his own series he got killed by Shiva and he knew there was nothing he could do to stop her panther blow at that point... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fbdaury Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Id just like to point out that i think the two top contenders for the best MA are ineliable because of the "no powers" criteria. Shiva and Batgirl have a superpower that defines them as impossible to beat, read body language thing. This is a power, as was pointed out earlier when Batgirl lost this ability she became average, hence her actual trained skill combined with dex str and tougness is not up to beating any of the other top 10. She has a power that lets her win, which apparently shiva uses as well. I understand alot of people will maintain its not a power, but then most wuxia abilities are merely training even though there obviously superpowers. Actually, it's not a power but a skill- her brain was altered to allow her to understand speech and words but to alter her mental patterns that had up until that time understood only movement as a language. That's why she was able to re-learn the skill, her body knew how to do it, Shiva only needed to show her mind how to remember it. She has been scanned and found metagene negative by top members of the DEO(or whatever the DCU calls it- the paranormal task group)- basically she is well within normal human standards but just knows how to coordinate her physical abilities in ways most humans cannot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Uh' date=' no- even in his own series he got killed by Shiva and he knew there was nothing he could do to stop her panther blow at that point...[/quote'] Then later that issue stated that he threw the fight to screw over Neron, so the demon would not get what he wanted. Also, earlier in that fight Dragon had Shiva at his mercy and would've struck the leopard blow himself had not one of Shiva's flunkies blindsided him in order to prevent it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorsch Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Actually' date=' it's not a power but a skill- her brain was altered to allow her to understand speech and words but to alter her mental patterns that had up until that time understood only movement as a language. That's why she was able to re-learn the skill, her body knew how to do it, Shiva only needed to show her mind how to remember it. She has been scanned and found metagene negative by top members of the DEO(or whatever the DCU calls it- the paranormal task group)- basically she is well within normal human standards but just knows how to coordinate her physical abilities in ways most humans cannot.[/quote'] As i said, peolple will maintain this is not a power. So she tested negative for meta gene....so what. MAs are people who are skilled fighters no more no less, that all but two fail to pick up this ability ( and notable the best two acording to peoples responces ) leads me to think this can be classed as a power. A 16 or whatever old girl can beat batman and by implication Captain america and anyone else that dosent have this "gift", they are often described as peak ability people where only skill should differentiate between them. When they lose this "gift" they are merely as skilled as they have been taught and trained to. A power is a power however its explained Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist As i said' date=' peolple will maintain this is not a power. So she tested negative for meta gene....so what. MAs are people who are skilled fighters no more no less, [...'] Val Armorr, Daniel Rand, and Karnak the Shatterer will all be very surprised to hear that they're not really martial artists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorsch Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist So will son goku, if you allow chi powers, or whatever, to be learnable. ( okay this is very weak i admit it, how about any character from HK MA movies) Val armour, a character who can fight superboy can hardly be held up as a example of "its just skill". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist And yet, that is precisely how the comic books with him in it have explained such since the character's inception. If you don't like skills that allow people to break the laws of mundane physics, you read comics in the first place why? Note -- with Goku it's largely genetic as well, Saiyan DNA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorsch Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Well ther becomes a point when its just silly. Any charcter can be written as able to hurt any other, thats the writers choice. But i wont buy such titles after such blatent ripping apart of suspension of disbelief, others suspension is more or less leinient than mine. Batman knocking out superman with a head butt for example.... i cant concieve of any amount of skill being able to hurt someone who can withstand nukes. But your right i dont collect comics anymore, though i wish i did. Just checking, but are you saying Val Armorr has displayed no superpowers? If so why is he ineligble for this poll? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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