DC's Best Martial Artist

[Enforcer84]

yet another sidetrack for me.

Who are your top ten present day, non-superhuman martial artists (Deathstroke or Karate Kid)?

No need to justify, but I'm sure some will. Let's just keep this from devolving into name calling m'kay? (Ties are acceptable)

 

mine, though I admit to being limited in knowledge of characters

 

1. Richard Dragon

2. Lady Shiva

3. Bronze Tiger, Batman, Conner Hawke

4. Black Canary, Nightwing, Manhunter, Batgirl II

5. Mr Terrific II

6. Cheshire, Wildcat

7. Arsenal, Huntress

8. Catman

9. Robin

10. Flamebird

 

 

 

Edit: got Flamebird's name wrong.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

Penguin's not up there?

[Enforcer84]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

Ben? Can I?

Thanks!

 

*Kick!

[Blue]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

Ooh, nice kick. I think Enforcer84 should be on that list somewhere.

(Below Ben, of course)

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

1. Richard Dragon

2. Lady Shiva

3. Bronze Tiger, Batman, Conner Hawke

4. Black Canary, Nightwing, Manhunter, Batgirl II

5. Mr Terrific II

6. Cheshire, Wildcat

7. Arsenal, Huntress

8. Catman

9. Robin

10. Firebird

That's pretty close to how I'd rank them. My list (no ties) would probably be...

 

1. Richard Dragon

2. Batman

3. Lady Shiva

4. Bronze Tiger

5. Black Canary

6. Batgirl II

7. Nightwing

8. Connor Hawke

9. Mr Terrific II

10. Wildcat

[Bloodstone]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

When you say Batgirl II, are you talking about Cassandra Cain? Cause I though she was Batgirl III. Batgirl II was Huntress, wasn't she? I'm not all that up on my Bat clan knowlege, so I might be confused on this one...

 

If we're talking about Cassandra, I believe she's supposed to be right on par with Shiva. Batman is right above Shiva, having besically one shoted her in at least one encounter I know of (assuming you count Superman & Batman is fully in continuity).

 

Cheshire is supposedly dead. Deathstroke shot her at the end of Villian United. Course, her NOT beign dead is probably the better option for that particular story and it's not like he blew here head off... In any event, she's supposed to be the second deadliest female assassin in the DCU, right under Lady Shiva.

 

Speaking of Villians United, Scandal is supposed to be quite the expert fighter, right op there with the likes of Talia al Ghul.

 

Also, I don't think you can rank Black Cannary as a non powered martial artists, what with the Canary Cry...

[Richard Logue]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

Also' date=' I don't think you can rank Black Cannary as a non powered martial artists, what with the Canary Cry...[/quote']

 

 

You can if you don't weigh that factor in. I think she's "lega" here if you're just considering her hand-to-hand skills alone.

[Starlord]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

Wha?! No Spider-Man or Firelord?

 

This thread sucks, man!

[Force]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

Wha?! No Spider-Man or Firelord?

 

This thread sucks, man!

 

Firelord wins hands down.

[Chimpira]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

yet another sidetrack for me.

Who are your top ten present day, non-superhuman martial artists (Deathstroke or Karate Kid)?

No need to justify, but I'm sure some will. Let's just keep this from devolving into name calling m'kay? (Ties are acceptable)

 

mine, though I admit to being limited in knowledge of characters

 

1. Richard Dragon

2. Lady Shiva

3. Bronze Tiger, Batman, Conner Hawke

4. Black Canary, Nightwing, Manhunter, Batgirl II

5. Mr Terrific II

6. Cheshire, Wildcat

7. Arsenal, Huntress

8. Catman

9. Robin

10. Firebird

 

This is pretty close to how I see it but I would raise Batgirl to category 3 because she has beaten Shiva, in a pretty impressive fight that was a year in the making and I would add Cain to line 5 and the Question to line 7. Cain taught Batgirl and Batman. I think that they both could defeat Cain but he would definitely be a hard person to put down in a fight. The Question was part of the group trained by Richard Dragon and if I remember correctly it was Shiva that pointed him in that direction.

 

I will not get into the Batman one punching Shiva thing because I hated the whole Firelord/Spiderman thing that went crazy on the boards. There are quite a few things (must not grind teeth. Must not grind teeth.)that happened in that book, Superman & Batman, that I had a problem with but it happened, I have finally successfully found someone to give the book away to and I am letting it go (Must not grind teeth. Must not grind teeth.)

[Radar]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

Manhunter? Mark Shaw, right? Not the current one...and I don't even remember Shaw being a martial artist of note. He could probably hold his own long enough to get away from any of the above, but beyond that, dunno if I agree.

[Chuckg]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

Mark Shaw's currently suffering from an advanced case of the crazies in his own comic, and with his mental state in such a mess, God only knows what's happened to his skill level.

[Chuckg]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

As for where Richard Dragon ranks -- the problem is that the latest RICHARD DRAGON mini-series is absolutely impossible to reconcile with Post-Crisis DC continuity. (Richard Dragon is a young punk in the present day, but Huntress, Oracle, and the Question were all taught by him when he was an old master -- years ago? And this is just counting post-Crisis, post-Zero-Hour stuff!)

 

(Note -- Dragon having taught Huntress things still having happened, confirmed a couple months of go in BIRDS OF PREY #85 -- which was *after* the recent RICHARD DRAGON mini.)

 

OTOH, if we specify 'Young Punk Richard Dragon', just the latest, he's still superior to Shiva, but in an indeterminate place as regards Batgirl., as they've never fought. Given that his showing vs. Shiva was more decisive, however, I must (very reluctantly -- Dragon's latest retcon made him into an *obnoxious* little bastard) say he probably laps Batgirl.

 

Oh, and note, Batgirl has defeated Shiva twice -- BATGIRL #25, in the epic knock-down drag-out brawl for it all (Batgirl wins by the skin of her teeth), and BATGIRL #9 (Batgirl sucker-punches Shiva with her broken arm). OTOH, Shiva's defeat of Batgirl (BATGIRL #8) occurred when Batgirl was temporarily suffering a significant neurological impairment, and had temporarily downgraded to the level where Batman was casually walking all over her face.

[Chuckg]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

I will not get into the Batman one punching Shiva thing because I hated the whole Firelord/Spiderman thing that went crazy on the boards. There are quite a few things (must not grind teeth. Must not grind teeth.)that happened in that book' date=' Superman & Batman, that I had a problem with but it happened, I have finally successfully found someone to give the book away to and I am letting it go (Must not grind teeth. Must not grind teeth.)[/quote']

 

Just keep telling yourself 'Shiva was under Gorilla Grodd's mind control. Her martial arts style requires mental focus to work properly.'(*) over and over again...

 

(Not that I won't agree with you that Loeb's SUPERMAN/BATMAN run is a hideously stupid mess. This is the same guy who gave us Marshmallow Fluff Darkseid, after all.)

 

 

(*) It's the same one that Batgirl III uses, after all, and we know Cassandra can go straight from 'unbeatable' to 'shambling wreck' if she's being messed with psychically the wrong way. Their style allows the unaugmented body to reach truly metahuman levels of strength, speed, and agility -- but it requires concentration. Take that away, and they're just petite women with good muscle tone and no especial skills or reflexes... i.e,. easily overpowered by a bruiser like Batman.

[Chimpira]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

Just keep telling yourself 'Shiva was under Gorilla Grodd's mind control. Her martial arts style requires mental focus to work properly.'(*) over and over again...

 

(Not that I won't agree with you that Loeb's SUPERMAN/BATMAN run is a hideously stupid mess. This is the same guy who gave us Marshmallow Fluff Darkseid, after all.)

 

 

(*) It's the same one that Batgirl III uses, after all, and we know Cassandra can go straight from 'unbeatable' to 'shambling wreck' if she's being messed with psychically the wrong way. Their style allows the unaugmented body to reach truly metahuman levels of strength, speed, and agility -- but it requires concentration. Take that away, and they're just petite women with good muscle tone and no especial skills or reflexes... i.e,. easily overpowered by a bruiser like Batman.

 

That is a good one but that would cause me to think about the book and undo all the repression I have long since made into an artform.

 

(Conan the Barbarian is pretty cool, I wonder why they never made a sequel? Highlander was a cool movie, I am glad that they had the forethought just to leave it alone. You mean they are going to make a remake of 'Get Carter'? I wonder when that will ever happen?)

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

 

1. Richard Dragon

2. Lady Shiva

3. Bronze Tiger, Batman, Conner Hawke

4. Black Canary, Nightwing, Manhunter, Batgirl II

5. Mr Terrific II

6. Cheshire, Wildcat

7. Arsenal, Huntress

8. Catman

9. Robin

10. Firebird

 

Of course KK wins hands down, but as he is disallowed I'd say you have that pretty close. It has been implied that in strait martial arts ability (ie in a ring "fight" kind of situation) Nightwing is better than Bats. I'd rank Manhunter a little lower, and Batgirl II a little higher. Glad you remembered Hawke - he fought Shiva to a standstill for about 4 pages, then she started getting him, and that is among the best anyone but Cassandra and Richard have done.

[Chuckg]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

Actually, Nightwing and Bruce had a solo match during 'Fugitive', in the Batcave. Dick having room to maneuver and all.

 

Bruce humiliated him without even having to punch back, he left Dick wrecking himself against the furniture.

 

It was very sad.

[Powerhouse]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

Ignoring the terrible Richard Dragon series (that last one), I'd rank Dragon above Lady Shiva as a better martial artist. He is simply more balanced and mediative. He actually might not be quite as strong of a fighter but his spiritual side compensates immensely. If those two ever fought, he would probably deflect all of her attacks while never attacking since there would be no point. Dragon doesn't need to "prove" anything. In the end, Shiva would just give up since she couldn't gain what she needed from that fight.

 

Shiva is above Batman, no doubt. Those two have fought each other to a standstill and that's with her giving up about 90 pounds of muscle and bone to Bruce. Also, while Bruce has devoted himself to mastering many disciplines, Shiva is focused pretty much exclusively on the martial arts.

 

Regarding Cassandra, her skills fluctuate so much that it's tough to rank her. In her first fight with Deathstroke, he couldn't touch her. Next time they meet, she acknowledge that Slade is just playing with her. WTH? Personally, despite issue 25, I rank her below Shiva due to lack of experience. Also, it was noted that Shiva had a deathwish at the time and may have wanted to lose, albeit in a hardfought contest with one of the few people who can come close to Shiva.

 

Regarding Black Canary, she has been redefined under Birds of Prey as one of the top martial artists in world (we'll ignore Identidy Crisis 3) in part to Shiva's tutelage.

[Chuckg]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

> Ignoring the terrible Richard Dragon series (that last one), I'd rank

> Dragon above Lady Shiva as a better martial artist. He is simply more

> balanced and mediative.

 

Oh, *Old School* Richard Dragon was *clearly* Shiva's superior. She acknowledged that without hesitation. Clearly Cassandra's superior as well. The old version of Richard was the acknowledged chief zen guru of all martial arts, dude had attained enlightenment and everything. Shiva followed him around like a fangirl for a while.

 

[snip]

> Regarding Cassandra, her skills fluctuate so much that it's tough to

> rank her. In her first fight with Deathstroke, he couldn't touch her.

> Next time they meet, she acknowledge that Slade is just playing with

> her. WTH?

 

That would be part of Slade's recent ridiculous power-ups for no reason, him having gone from 'Dick Grayson can repeatedly elude me in close combat' to 'I can punk entire combined JLA lineups like they were children.'

 

Ignore it. It's the writers make Slade into SladeGod, naught more.

 

> Personally, despite issue 25, I rank her below Shiva due to lack of

> experience. Also, it was noted that Shiva had a deathwish at the time

> and may have wanted to lose, albeit in a hardfought contest with one

> of the few people who can come close to Shiva.

 

Batgirl is at worst Shiva's *equal*, though. The two of them are 'any given Sunday', with who wins depending on who's having a better minute... and that's the conservative estimate. Generous estimate, Cassandra laps her.

 

(Shiva is more experienced, yes -- but Cassandra has literally been trained and mentally conditioned from birth for Ultimate Combat, as a combined project of the entire Society of Assassins, following a master plan laid out by Ra's al Ghul. The girl's just not normal.)

 

> Regarding Black Canary, she has been redefined under Birds of Prey as

> one of the top martial artists in world (we'll ignore Identidy Crisis 3) in

> part to Shiva's tutelage.

 

Yup, Dinah's in the top six now. I'd rank her as just alongside the Bronze Tiger, a hair under Batman. And it's not just Shiva, she went and trained under Cassandra and even sparred with Wonder Woman a little. (Diana was clearly holding her strength and speed back to 'compete fairly with peak human' levels, not her full power -- they both admitted that -- but the point was that Dinah was picking up Amazon-fu in addition to other styles.)

[Powerhouse]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

Let's see, I would adjust the list as:

 

1. Richard Dragon

2. Lady Shiva

3. Batman

4. Batgirl (Cassandra)

5. Connor Hawke

6. Bronze Tiger

7. Wildcat (great boxer and all around bruiser)

8. Black Canary

9. Nightwing

10. Cheshire

 

I might change this but it's not a bad list. I don't see Wildcat as a great martial artist since while he's a great boxer, he tends to brawl alot more but he IS effective. Numbers 4-8 might change up a bit.

[Chuckg]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

Wildcat is under Dinah now. The student has surpassed the teacher. They interact like that nowadays.

 

And Batman has been repeatedly schooled by Cassandra in sparring, sometimes by truly humiliating margins. The one time Batman has ever matched her, she was under the influence of berserker drugs, with God only knows what effects on her. (Supposedly, Batman was as well, but there was that conversation at the end with Babs, where he admits he set it up deliberately...)

[Chuckg]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

Oh, data points re: Batgirl (and by extension Shiva, as they share common abilities)...

 

Her unique training, conditioning etc. allows her to basically be a low-end Master of Sinanju, getting truly superhuman performance out of the human body without cybernetics or metagenes.

 

Case in point, BATGIRL #14:

 

The people in these scans are either from the CIA, or from the DEO (Department of Extranormal Operations), the DCU equivalent of DOSPA. They're running the full analysis treatment on footage of Cassandra after, in the last episode, she blitzed a CIA safehouse to rescue a guy some rogue spooks were screwing over. They're trying to ID and classify the powers of this new (to them) player on the scene.

 

After crunching all the #'s, they come to the clear conclusion -- she's obviously metahuman, with multiples of human speed and strength.

 

When their geneticist reports that her blood sample has no metagene, they start talking about cybernetics.

 

(Apparently, they don't believe in ye freaky chi.)

[Powerhouse]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

And Batman has been repeatedly schooled by Cassandra in sparring, sometimes by truly humiliating margins. The one time Batman has ever matched her, she was under the influence of berserker drugs, with God only knows what effects on her.

 

To be honest, I take a very skeptical view of ranking Cassandra because she has been portrayed as SO over the top that it's either bad writing or she's metahuman. I could see her possible beating Batman but not as easily as she has before. Also, if you go by that sparring, then how is Bats able to go toe to toe with Shiva who pretty much matches Cassandra in BG 25? He can't and there's a really bad spiral of logic.

 

The big secret of BG's success is her speed (I can see that) but also her ability to read people. Take that away and she was nothing. According to Batman, it would have taken her a year to be decent enough to wear the BG costume and *maybe* ten years, if ever, to be on his level.

 

It gets wierder when you consider that Shiva has that ability too (indeed, she retrains Cassandra in it) but Shiva has never been able to dominate other TOP martial artists like Cassandra did. I guess the argument could be that BG is just better at it because she was trained from birth to use that skill but then it becomes a serious crutch.

 

Maybe I'm just being creative but my take is that Batman has never gone full out on Cassandra. The only time he came close was in the above time you mentioned and even then, he didn't want to hurt her. That or it's just terrible writing and putting Cassandra at the level they did was just a BAD idea.

[Chuckg]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

We appear to have cross-posted, becasue I was digging out (and just posted) the indicators that Batgirl *is* metahuman, or rather, operates at metahuman levels w/o a metagene. As shown by scientific analysis of her abilities by government metahuman experts.

 

As to Shiva -- Shiva was operating at clearly metahuman levels as well, recently. (Recheck her fight with Batgirl in BATGIRL #25 -- both of them are shattering brick walls with the force of their punches, when they miss each each other and hit the landscape instead.)

 

Bronze Tiger comments in a recent BIRDS OF PREY that the Shiva of years ago (i.e. -- her first appearance in BATMAN comics) was not as formidable as she is now, so she has apparently only discovered these abilities in recent years.

 

It's instructive to note that over the past few years, Shiva's appearances in comics have usually not been as a direct antagonist for the heroes, and on the few occasions that she has been, the heroes all react like fighting Shiva = certain death. Even the Connor Hawke fight.

[Chuckg]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

BTW, other meta feats for Batgirl involve moving in literal bullet time -- and I don't mean just 'dodging bullets' (every street-leveller from Spider-Man on down to Hawkingbird can do a simple acrobatic dodge), I mean explicit Matrix-time events of standing there, watching the bullets approach her face in slow motion, and then stepping aside while they're still hanging there in mid-air.

 

She's done that at least three times under two separate writers.

 

(Whether or not Shiva can do this is unknown -- Shiva has never faced opponents with guns above the mook level, as she specializes in picking fights with martial artists. And mooks, she can wipe out before they even get a chance to shoot. However, given that they are templated off each other... Ra's was attempting to recreate Lady Shiva 2.0 with Cassandra, only better... and their matching each other in all other respects, I'd speculate that she could.)

 

As with Val "Karate Kid" Armorr -- if nowhere on his level -- Cassandra operates at blatantly superhuman levels via sheer ubermartialartsskillz. Such is possible in the DCU, Val himself being the most notable case.