DC's Best Martial Artist

[Chuckg]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

Actually, there's good reason to suspect it's not.

 

Furthermore, in Ostrander's SUICIDE SQUAD run, they fought again and Bronze Tiger wasn't anywhere near as buff against Batman.

 

But I already said this once already.

[tomd1969]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

How is the guy who defeated Batman in one shot, on a lower level of martial arts then Batman himself?

 

One kick to the gut from Bronze Tiger and Batman crumples. No extenuating circumstances involved, no distractions. Batman saw Bronze Tiger [at the time brainwashed to work for the League of Assassins] and was ready to fight him. He'd even taken a defensive position BUT WAS UNABLE TO BLOCK THE KICK.

 

The story is still part of the Post Crisis universe people!

 

How long ago was that? As other people have pointed out, Batman in Year One had a hard time putting down GCPD SWAT, now takes down whole elite squads without raising much of a sweat. Has Bronze Tiger improved that much? I don't think he has.

 

Also, this list is not static (note that Black Canary has moved up on my list). I stand by it until I see evidence otherwise that Batman, as he is currently written, is any better (or worse) than Bronze Tiger.

[Blue]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

How is the guy who defeated Batman in one shot, on a lower level of martial arts then Batman himself?

 

One kick to the gut from Bronze Tiger and Batman crumples. No extenuating circumstances involved, no distractions. Batman saw Bronze Tiger [at the time brainwashed to work for the League of Assassins] and was ready to fight him. He'd even taken a defensive position BUT WAS UNABLE TO BLOCK THE KICK.

 

The story is still part of the Post Crisis universe people!

You'll hear two arguments: First that it could be an aberration rather than the norm. The other, that we don't know every little bit of comic book history and are voting based on our personal knowledge.

 

I ascribe to the last one.

[Twilight]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

A good reason to belive it's not? You mean aside from every reliable source on the subject saying that it is in fact part of Post Crisis history?

 

It happened people, deal with it.

 

As for Batman dealing with a squad of SWAT team member without trouble. One could make the argument that any martial artist on this list could accomplish that feat, should they wish too. Several characters listed so far have taken out rooms of heavily armed people with ease, some of them packing weaponry far more advanced then that possessed by the Gotham Police Department.

[Chuckg]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

> A good reason to belive it's not? You mean aside from every reliable

> source on the subject saying that it is in fact part of Post Crisis

> history?

 

Fan sources and guidebooks do not count. And given what was in that storyline, how can anyone say it's still in continuity Post-Crisis?

 

The first Bronze Tiger/Batman fight had Bronze Tiger keeping Batman down while another member of the Society of Assassins killed Kathy Kane. The entire reason the Bronze Tiger fought Batman in the first place is because Batman was trying to stop *him* from killing Kathy Kane. But Kathy Kane doesn't exist Post-Crisis. Explain to me how that storyline is still in-continuity if this is possible?

 

> It happened people, deal with it.

 

*points up*

 

> As for Batman dealing with a squad of SWAT team member without

> trouble.

 

Ummmm, no, you mischaracterize again.

 

My point was that Batman has obviously shown improvement from his early years in comics to now -- back then, a squad of SWAT could give him trouble, today he casually steps on Navy SEALs like they're roaches.

 

Ergo, even *IF* the story you mention was still in-continuity -- which it's not -- it still wouldn't matter, because Batman that far back in his career is not the same skill level as he is now.

 

Furthermore, you completely ignored the part where more recently in comics (Ostrander's SUICIDE SQUAD run, again), Batman and Bronze Tiger went at it, and that time around, the Bronze Tiger was losing on points -- another data point to show that Batman has significantly improved since way back when. Either that, or the Tiger's been backsliding... and since that original storyline is when Ben Turner had been brainwashed into a living incarnation of martial rage by the original O-Sensei, a mental programming he has long since shaken off, backsliding is also a distinct possibility. He was amped majorly by the Dark Side back then.

 

But what is vanishingly *not* a possibility is that the same relationship re: martial ranking exists between the Batman and the Bronze Tiger *now* as did back during the Bronze Tiger's first appearances, because *SO MUCH* has changed since then -- on both sides.

 

Plus -- Kathy Kane doesn't exist post-crisis.

[Twilight]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

Guidebooks written with the authorization of DC Comics, by people who've actually done the research on the subject DO count Chuck. I said RELIABLE sources remember?

 

As for the story itself, nobody was holding Batman down at all. He merely arrived to late to save her. Also, while she may no longer be Batwoman post Crisis it's still an acknowledged fact that she was killed by Bronze Tiger in that storyline.

 

However as usual you'll ignore the facts and continue to blather on like the troll you are, so I'll talk with the intelligent people and leave you to your delusions.

[Enforcer84]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

How is the guy who defeated Batman in one shot, on a lower level of martial arts then Batman himself?

 

One kick to the gut from Bronze Tiger and Batman crumples. No extenuating circumstances involved, no distractions. Batman saw Bronze Tiger [at the time brainwashed to work for the League of Assassins] and was ready to fight him. He'd even taken a defensive position BUT WAS UNABLE TO BLOCK THE KICK.

 

The story is still part of the Post Crisis universe people!

Because this is an opinion poll. That was his opinion. You are more that welcome to your own top 10.

[Twilight]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

Because this is an opinion poll. That was his opinion. You are more that welcome to your own top 10.

 

Well for the most part, I agree with Proditor's top ten. Bronze Tiger is certainly not the most dangerous martial artist in DC but he's most definetly high up in the top ten. He's always seemed to rank just behind Richard Dragon and Shiva, from what I've read of him.

 

Also, while it cannot be denied that Batman is a tough fighter, he's hardly the most consistent one. In one book he might be going toe to toe with badass martial artists in another he's having trouble with people who shouldn't be giving him a hard time at all, given what most canon sources say his fighting skills are.

[Chuckg]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

> As for the story itself, nobody was holding Batman down at all. He

> merely arrived to late to save her. Also, while she may no longer be

> Batwoman post Crisis it's still an acknowledged fact that she was killed by

> Bronze Tiger in that storyline.

 

Really? Where? The only Post-Crisis mention of Kathy Kane that I know of was in "The Kingdom", and that was a fluke of Hypertime temporarily crossing over into the Post-Crisis reality, not her being part of it.

 

As for guidebooks, authorized or otherwise, counting as canon -- no, they are not binding if contradicted by actual comics. If the comics conflict with the guidebook, the comics win, not the guidebook.

 

Oh, and BTW, you completely ignored every point clearly showing that even if the story *is* still in continuity, neither Batman /or/ the Bronze Tiger are at the same skill level they were back then -- Bruce has clearly gone up, the Tiger's quite likely gone /down/.

[Chuckg]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

Also' date=' while it cannot be denied that Batman is a tough fighter, he's hardly the most consistent one. In one book he might be going toe to toe with badass martial artists in another he's having trouble with people who shouldn't be giving him a hard time at all, given what most canon sources say his fighting skills are.[/quote']

 

Likewise, the Bronze Tiger goes from being able to one-punch Batman to being taken out by getting smacked over the back of the head by Valentina Vostok while he's occupied with Black Thorn... Black Thorn, of all people.

 

Dude, if you want to argue that Batman's inferior to someone, boost Cassandra Cain (who's walked all over him like a doormat) or Lady Shiva (who Batman needs a double-team just to hold down for a little while -- and that was back when Shiva was notably less formidable than she is now). Those are clearly backed up.

[OddHat]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

Hey, I freely admit that it's logically absurd and physically impossible. (Of course, this being comics, *lots* of things are logically absurd and physically impossible.)

 

If it only happened the one time, I'd have been willing to write it off to a writer brain cramp and make it like it didn't happen. If the artwork were more ambiguous, I could have accepted an interpretation of 'she didn't actually move faster than the bullets, she just jinked around so fast that they shot wild'.

 

OTOH, the artist went *way* out of his way to make it *absolutely* plain that ye majorly freaky stuff was in progress yo. Furthermore, it's happened more than once in the comic.

 

And last, but definitely not least, she's not the only person in the DCU who can abuse martial arts to get temporary Flash-like superspeed. Post-Reboot Val Armorr's done the same, when he Martial Threw a charging Mon-El... a Mon-El who was charging at a high fraction of lightspeed.

 

So, the general physical laws of the DCU apparently allow for very short-term(*) bursts of Flash-like superspeed from super-duper martial artists... even as ridiculous as that sounds.

 

Is there a 'shrug' emoticon in here somewhere?

 

 

 

 

(*) A step or two at a time, no more.

 

 

Strangely or no, this matches up well with the wilder martial arts folk tales, modern fiction and movies. The DCU is a place where someone like The Kung Fu Hustle character "The Beast" really can pluck bullets out of the air through martial arts power alone.

[Thanelord]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

Sorry, aside from the flagship characters, I know little about DC. Grew up a Marvel guy, with a sprinkle of Image when they came along.

 

Thanelord

[Oruncrest]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

As for the story itself' date=' nobody was holding Batman down at all. He merely arrived to late to save her. Also, while she may no longer be Batwoman post Crisis it's still an acknowledged fact that she was killed by Bronze Tiger in that storyline.[/quote']

 

Really? Where? The only Post-Crisis mention of Kathy Kane that I know of was in "The Kingdom", and that was a fluke of Hypertime temporarily crossing over into the Post-Crisis reality, not her being part of it.

 

I believe she was mentioned in Suicide Squad #38. King Faraday's explaining to Sgt. Steele about the incident that drew Waller's attention to him in the first place - the murder of Kathy Kane.

 

(It should be noted that the story tries to absolve him of the murder by saying that another assassin killed her while BT was fighting Batman, but that would make no sense seeing as how this was BT's test to see if he was good enough to join the League of Assassins, but like I've heard recently, "What's a little inconsistency in a DC comic anyway?" )

 

Oh' date=' and BTW, you completely ignored every point clearly showing that even if the story *is* still in continuity, neither Batman /or/ the Bronze Tiger are at the same skill level they were back then -- Bruce has clearly gone up, the Tiger's quite likely gone /down/.[/quote']

 

Ben went 7 years between Detective Comics #485 and Suicide Squad #1 and hadn't lost a step, so it's a safe bet that he's not a couch potato between appearances.

 

Oh, and as for the last known Batman/Broze Tiger fight, I've got Suicide Squad #62, and it wasn't a Batman walkover. The fight - what little we saw of it - began with Ben trying to point out the real villian to Batman, but Bats don't wanna hear it. Ben tries to bull his way through Bats and gets a boot to the head for his trouble. Batman chides Turner for walking into that kick "You're angry, Turner. Sloppy. I expected better from you." This ticks Ben off and he charges Batman. The next time we see the two, Ben is decking Batman. Unfortunatly, Superman ends the all the fighting before there's a clear winner.

 

(I should point out that at this time, BT's going thru what I call a 'Black MoFo' phase. That's where a black character known for his self-control has it all stripped away, and then has to reinvent him/her self without it.It happened to Storm when she was in Japan (she got a mohawk to celebrate) and it happened to Ben. The one kick that Batman landed on him was likely to show how Ben's Black MoFo phase was affecting him and his fighting style.)

[Chuckg]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

Oh' date=' and as for the last known Batman/Broze Tiger fight, I've got Suicide Squad #62, and it wasn't a Batman walkover.[/quote']

 

I didn't say it was. I *did* say that Ben was losing on points -- and furthermore, given that he didn't KO Batman with just one kick, he's *OBVIOUSLY* not as good then as he was in the Kathy Kane story.

 

As for 'self-control' -- you are aware that the Bronze Tiger was *originally* all about The Rage, right? Kid was *BORN* with rage issues. That's what the Sensei did for him -- focused his rage into the Tiger Mask, turning him into a nigh-unstoppable living weapon fueled by the Dark Side, so to speak. That was how the Society of Assassins controlled him for a long while.

 

Ben's *always* struggled with anger, not just as a 'phase', but as his entire hero's journey. Heck, the climax of his personal story at the end of SUICIDE SQUAD was him finally coming to terms with his anger for good.

 

BTW, I'd like to repeat what I originally said in this thread:

 

Also' date=' Bronze Tiger faced Batman Post-Crisis, during Ostrander's SUICIDE SQUAD run. The fight was interrupted before a conclusion was reached, but before it was, Bronze Tiger was losing on points.[/quote']

 

Hrm, it would seem that I did *not* say that 'Batman walked all over Bronze Tiger', nor did I forget to mention that the fight ended before it was concluded. Instead, I pointed out that Batman was ahead on points before Superman butted in.

 

So congratulations, you just went well out of your way to "correct" on me something I'd already said long before you got here.

 

That was a little annoying. Please try not to do it again.

 

And I reiterate the point -- first fight, Bronze Tiger KTFOs Batman with his first blow. Second point, Batman gets the first punch in and stays ahead on points long enough for the fight to get interrupted by someone else.

 

Obviously either Batman's gone up in the interim, or Bronze Tiger's gone down, or both, 'cause Batman did *WAY* better the second time than the first time. And any way you slice it, the results of the first fight are no longer indicative of their *CURRENT* skill levels. That was a long time ago, when both were different men.

[KawangaKid]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

Based on a batman - nightwing - green arrow crossover years back, it's been suggested that Batman actually tends to hold back when fighting Lady Shiva. He warned Connor that because he managed to battle Shiva and survive, he'd attract unwanted attention from the martial arts circuit...

 

... unwanted for Bats, anyway, since he prefers to fight crime rather than dealing with martial artists with gunslinger mentalities.

[Chuckg]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

The first time they fought -- when Lady Shiva was being intro'ed in Bat-Comics, and was less skilled then that she is now -- Batman was anything *but* holding back (they were trying to capture her for interrogation), and he needed Jason Todd to double-team/distract her to give him any chance at all.

[Oruncrest]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

I didn't say it was. I *did* say that Ben was losing on points{/quote]

 

Bats delivers a kick and takes a puinch (and that's the only contact we're allowed to see) and 'Ben was losing on points'?

 

-- and furthermore, given that he didn't KO Batman with just one kick, he's *OBVIOUSLY* not as good then as he was in the Kathy Kane story.

 

I haven't read Detective Comics #485 so I don't know, but Faraday made it sound like it took more than one punch to beat the Bat.

 

As for 'self-control' -- you are aware that the Bronze Tiger was *originally* all about The Rage, right? Kid was *BORN* with rage issues. That's what the Sensei did for him -- focused his rage into the Tiger Mask, turning him into a nigh-unstoppable living weapon fueled by the Dark Side, so to speak. That was how the Society of Assassins controlled him for a long while.

 

Ben's *always* struggled with anger, not just as a 'phase', but as his entire hero's journey. Heck, the climax of his personal story at the end of SUICIDE SQUAD was him finally coming to terms with his anger for good.

 

And if Ben was just dealing with rage issues, the above fight might not've taken as long as it did (or at least Ben wouldn't have walked into that kick), but part of Ben's makeover had to do with pride issues as well (in a battle with Stalinovolk, for instance, he knocked the big man down, but instead of pressing his advantage, he gloated. Needless to say, he needed Vixen to save his bacon that day). When Ben was confronted by the dream personification of the Bronze Tiger, 'BT' said, "I am your anger. I am your pride. I will be your death." So Ben had to come to terms with that as well.

 

Obviously either Batman's gone up in the interim, or Bronze Tiger's gone down...

 

Or Batman had a better estimation of his foe than he did in the first fight and didn't walk into a knock-out punch.

[Twilight]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

There's also whatever issues Ben was dealing with at the time to consider as well. When he fought Batman the first time Ben Turner was focussed and very on his game. If he was having some sort of mental issue during that particular fight, maybe the lack of focus threw off his game? He wouldn't be the first fighter who had a difficult fight because his mind wasn't 100% on the fight after all.

 

For that matter, he might've just had an 'off day', which happens to everybody. Anyways, sounds to me like they were about even and Ben was perhaps getting an advantage when Superman stopped the fight.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

I didnt realize DC had a Shrike. Guess thats the new thing I learned today...

[KawangaKid]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

The first time they fought -- when Lady Shiva was being intro'ed in Bat-Comics' date=' and was less skilled then that she is now -- Batman was anything *but* holding back (they were trying to capture her for interrogation), and he needed Jason Todd to double-team/distract her to give him any chance at all.[/quote']

 

Actually, any time Bats confronted Lady Shiva, I assumed he'd fight all out... coz' she's a killing machine! Still, it seemed to be a lame attempt in the "Attack of the Monkey Martial Artists" cross-over to apologize for having such great difficulty against her.

[Phil]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

I'll be honest that I don't know anything about Cain or Bronze Tiger or even Black Canary (other than the old Black Canary who was a sonic e-projector, not a martial artist to speak of). In fact, my knowledge comes from Bats and JLA, and I've stopped reading Bats since the unmitigated trash of No-man's Land. So this list has clear gaps, rather than trying to guess outside the limits of my own knowledge.

 

1. Richard Dragon

2. Batgirl (Cassandra Cain)

3. Shiva

4. Connor Hawke / Batman

5. Nightwing

 

and a loooong way behind:

6. Huntress / Catwoman

7. Robin

 

Just a point on the 'logic' of MA fights and X beating Y but losing to Z. I think you have to treat any such comparison more on a league table sense (so the one who wins the most is top) than a chess-ladder model (where to finish top you have to beat the person in 2nd place, etc.). Different styles may work better against different opponents, and under different circumstances specialists like Shiva may be beaten by generalists like Batman.

 

And then there's two other issues: the obvious writer's fiat, which hardly needs mentioning, but also DC's martial arts power-escalation game of recent years where all of a sudden everyone's an expert martial artist who previously was just a decent fighter.

[Chuckg]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

I haven't read Detective Comics #485 so I don't know' date=' but Faraday made it sound like it took more than one punch to beat the Bat.[/quote']

 

I *have* read it, and Batman went down on the first blow.

 

Or Batman had a better estimation of his foe than he did in the first fight and didn't walk into a knock-out punch.

 

If you take this line of argument, then you are admitting that the only reason Batman lost the first time is 'cause of surprise advantage... i.e. Bronze Tiger weren't really *that* good. Which only reinforces my point anyway.

 

So whether we call it heads or tails...

 

If he was having some sort of mental issue during that particular fight' date=' maybe the lack of focus threw off his game?[/quote']

 

The 'mental issue' the Bronze Tiger had the first time was that he was in full-on killer programming by the Sensei, which boosted him a lot. By the time of Ostrander's SUICIDE SQUAD (heck, since he left the Society of Assassins), he had shaken that programming.

 

With it, he was unstoppable (see 'one-punched Batman'). Without it, he's 'merely' one of the best martial artists in the world.

 

But the point is, Ben Turner, not the same dude who was the best weapon of the Society of Assassins anymore, 'cause he's ditched the Dark Side power boost.

[casualplayer]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

Way before the Batgod days, Batman was DC's Worf. "Oh my god, he killed Batman! You bastards!"

 

Bronze Tiger, in full-on League of Assassins mode, is scary. However he didn't know how to fight to wound or count coup. He was a stone killer. Now he has worked to regain and redeem himself, and he is awesome. I have to say I bought Richard Dragon probably 40% because of Ben.

 

In HEROspeak, think of it this way. Bronze Tiger had an extensive list of HKAs, choke holds and maiming nerve strikes with lots of levels with those manuevers when he debuted. Now he has acquired manuevers that don't result in death, but he hasn't acquired equivalent levels in using them. Also he has picked up the Psy Lim: Code vs. Killing that slowly displaced his Psy Lim: Must obey orders from League of Assassins.

[Twilight]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

Actually I'd say the Code vs Killing replaced a berserk or an enraged, given what I've read about Bronze Tiger's history. That's just a minor point though, otherwise I agree with you casualplayer.

[Enforcer84]

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

 

I'll be honest that I don't know anything about Cain or Bronze Tiger or even Black Canary (other than the old Black Canary who was a sonic e-projector, not a martial artist to speak of). In fact, my knowledge comes from Bats and JLA, and I've stopped reading Bats since the unmitigated trash of No-man's Land. So this list has clear gaps, rather than trying to guess outside the limits of my own knowledge.

 

1. Richard Dragon

2. Batgirl (Cassandra Cain)

3. Shiva

4. Connor Hawke / Batman

5. Nightwing

 

and a loooong way behind:

6. Huntress / Catwoman

7. Robin

 

Just a point on the 'logic' of MA fights and X beating Y but losing to Z. I think you have to treat any such comparison more on a league table sense (so the one who wins the most is top) than a chess-ladder model (where to finish top you have to beat the person in 2nd place, etc.). Different styles may work better against different opponents, and under different circumstances specialists like Shiva may be beaten by generalists like Batman.

 

And then there's two other issues: the obvious writer's fiat, which hardly needs mentioning, but also DC's martial arts power-escalation game of recent years where all of a sudden everyone's an expert martial artist who previously was just a decent fighter.

Thanks for the ballot Phil! I'll get it on my list tonight!