Your least favorite 5th Ed Characters

[Hermit]

On more than one thread, a dislike for the CKC character Nebula has been mentioned. I loosely recall others at different times indicating a dislike for this hero or that villain in 5th Edition as well.

 

While I don't like to dwell on the negative, in this case I'll make an exception. After all, we might be able to collectively improve on some character concepts or at least let the PTB know what's hot, and what's not.

 

So, which 5th Edition characters out so far just don't do it for you? Which ones do you dislike, or down right loathe? Please give reasons if possible.

[winterhawk]

Since I'm partially responsible...

 

Since this seemed to have stemmed from my post on the "Footnote Characters" string...

 

Nebula: for the aforementioned reasons.

 

Zorran the Artificer because I've never been crazy about the New Gods/Eternals/Inhumans style of secret civilizations.

 

To stay on the positive, I will say that I have not been disappointed with any Champions suppliment (I have not purchased any Star Hero stuff, mainly for monetary reasons) as a whole since the DOJ took over, which is a lot more than I can say for previous regimes (European Enemies?!?! What were they thinking?)

[Enforcer84]

Actually, I was kind of disappointed with the changes made to Vibron. I liked him the way he was.

[Rechan]

Talisman.

 

Not only is it that blatant 'She's a bad person, she's more powerful because she's dabbled with black magics, and ooh, it will lead to her demise because it's blaaaack magic, and baaad'. I'm waiting for the booga booga.

 

Also, she just seems... I don't know. Her powers are just so *blatant*. It just doesn't feel *Magic* so much as excuse to have a bad girl with wicked toys. Maybe I just have certain attitudes when it comes to Mystics. I havn't found a realy Interesting mystic villain yet.

 

She's the first one that popped into my mind.

[lemming]

I don't like Takofanes mainly due to the overwhelming death machine aspect. Some of the other megavillians can be reasoned with it seems. Then maybe it's i don't like the mystic vibes in 5th?

 

Nebula: I kind of ignored her as a one trick pony even though she's not really.

 

Warlord: He just rubs me the wrong way. Probably due to a previous Warlord villian who was much cooler. (Different game...)

[TheEmerged]

Nebula is out in front. Even without the whole EDM-UAA issue, she just... doesn't work.

 

I like the concept of Captain Chronos. I cringe in horror at some of his executions. Besides, I still argue an NND Entangle is useless because it can't do BODY...

 

I also agree that Talisman feels "forced", for lack of a better description.

 

I'm not overly fond of Sapphire or that "wannabe Solitaire" named Witchcraft, but I can't say I actively dislike them.

[Lord Liaden]

Stalwart, from the Champions Universe book, is a character I have some difficulty swallowing. It's not so much that he's "petty, vengeful, picky, and self-absorbed," or that he's a candidate for one day stealing the Stalwart powered armor and going freelance - these are things that could make for interesting plot developments. What sticks in my craw is that the FBI would choose to pilot their one-of-a-kind anti-supervillain armor, "a former student at the FBI Academy who'd been expelled for cheating on an exam." (CU p. 117) If there was ever a job that called for the best of the best, it's being entrusted with the Stalwart suit.

 

Okay, I admit that the rest of it bothers me too - same reason.

[Haerandir]

I just can't get behind Nighthawk. I'd rather have seen Crusader make the leap to the current edition if the Champions absolutely had to include a 'grim vigilante detective' slot.

[winterhawk]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Stalwart, from the Champions Universe book, is a character I have some difficulty swallowing. It's not so much that he's "petty, vengeful, picky, and self-absorbed," or that he's a candidate for one day stealing the Stalwart powered armor and going freelance - these are things that could make for interesting plot developments. What sticks in my craw is that the FBI would choose to pilot their one-of-a-kind anti-supervillain armor, "a former student at the FBI Academy who'd been expelled for cheating on an exam." (CU p. 117) If there was ever a job that called for the best of the best, it's being entrusted with the Stalwart suit.

 

Okay, I admit that the rest of it bothers me too - same reason.

 

Wow, I guess I never gave ole Stalwart a good goings over...now I don't like him either

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

If there was ever a job that called for the best of the best, it's being entrusted with the Stalwart suit.

That is a pretty common comic book cliché. I never could understand why government organizations were also so quick to give every loon a shot at greatness. Major Force was always one of the worse for me, but if you think about it the entire Suicide Squad fit the bill too.

[Haerandir]

Originally posted by Monolith

That is a pretty common comic book cliché. I never could understand why government organizations were also so quick to give every loon a shot at greatness. Major Force was always one of the worse for me, but if you think about it the entire Suicide Squad fit the bill too.

 

Well, I think it's a case of paranoid government spooks double-thinking themselves into a bad situation. See, the FBI knows that the second any government agency gives superpowers to anyone, they have set in motion a chain of events which will inevitably culminate in the super-agent going rogue. Primus has already lost a couple of Avengers that way. So, they handed the suit to an obvious bad seed so that they'd at least know he was going to go bad ahead of time, and they'd be ready for it. No doubt they've got all sorts of contingency plans in place for when he flips out and steals the suit. Besides, at least they know he's motivated and resourceful enough to cheat on his exams to get into the agency, and dumb enough to need to cheat and to get caught. So, when he goes bad, it shouldn't be too hard to catch him.

 

Imagine their surprise should he happen to retire from the agency after ~30 years of loyal service!

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Monolith

That is a pretty common comic book cliché. I never could understand why government organizations were also so quick to give every loon a shot at greatness. Major Force was always one of the worse for me, but if you think about it the entire Suicide Squad fit the bill too.

 

That's a fair point, Monolith, but I think the rationale is rather different here. The Suicide Squad members not only started out with powers and skills of their own, but were considered totally expendable by their government handlers precisely because they were loons, monsters and lifetime criminals. Major Force, and Captain Atom before him, were court-martialed military men who were used for experiments that the military figured they might not survive, because neither man was given a viable alternative; their superiors had no idea that superbeings would result until Capt. Atom popped out of the quantum field eighteen years later.

 

All of Stalwart's exceptional powers come from his armor, and the FBI had a choice as to what kind of man to give the responsibility of wearing it. They chose a selfish jerk - competent at his job, as his writeup makes clear, but not a person to inspire confidence or trust.

[wcw43921]

The one that comes immediately to mind is Black Harlequin. Too much and to obvious of a Joker swipe for me to enjoy or respect.

I also concur with Haerandir about Nighthawk. Crusader and Starburst definitely should have made it into 5th Edition.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Haerandir

Well, I think it's a case of paranoid government spooks double-thinking themselves into a bad situation. See, the FBI knows that the second any government agency gives superpowers to anyone, they have set in motion a chain of events which will inevitably culminate in the super-agent going rogue. Primus has already lost a couple of Avengers that way. So, they handed the suit to an obvious bad seed so that they'd at least know he was going to go bad ahead of time, and they'd be ready for it. No doubt they've got all sorts of contingency plans in place for when he flips out and steals the suit. Besides, at least they know he's motivated and resourceful enough to cheat on his exams to get into the agency, and dumb enough to need to cheat and to get caught. So, when he goes bad, it shouldn't be too hard to catch him.

 

Imagine their surprise should he happen to retire from the agency after ~30 years of loyal service!

 

LOL! That's an interesting rationale, Haerandir, and the logic is almost twisted enough to fit the government brass mindset. I guess my problem is that Lucius Grimes aka Stalwart isn't like the loyal, dedicated men and women that the government entrusts with their fighter airplanes or the controls to their missile silos. Sure, one could imagine one of them going rogue too, but it's not something their bosses are counting on.

[Haerandir]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

LOL! That's an interesting rationale, Haerandir, and the logic is almost twisted enough to fit the government brass mindset. I guess my problem is that Lucius Grimes aka Stalwart isn't like the loyal, dedicated men and women that the government entrusts with their fighter airplanes or the controls to their missile silos. Sure, one could imagine one of them going rogue too, but it's not something their bosses are counting on.

 

Well, sure. The military's been doing this sort of thing since forever. They've got it down to a science. You'll note that the FBI doesn't have much experience with fighter planes and missile silos. The FBI is hardly as bad as the CIA or similar pure espionage organizations, but they spend most of their time chasing terrorists, serial killers and covert paramilitary organizations. It's bound to warp their thinking. They're just not used to thinking in terms of 'loyal, dedicated and trustworthy' so much as 'not too disloyal, fairly dedicated and more-or-less trustworthy'.

 

At least, that's how it seems to work in fiction. We're talking conspiracy-theory fodder here, not real life. I have no intention of impugning the loyalty/dedication/trustworthiness of real-world FBI types.

 

Having said all of that, I'm not a huge Stalwart fan, either...

[Hermit]

Hmm I better contribute

 

The ones that just don't sing for me include:

Gravitar- To repeat what I said about her earlier: I think it's the 'I will personally, single handedly take over the world' thing. It just strikes me as ... well, moronic. She's got to sleep sometime. I'm trying to get over my dislike for what I see as a bland and not too bright overly powered villainess, but it's not coming easy.

Cateran- Ah, no offense. Normally I like any lady with redhair. Still, this one just made me just want to mutter "There can be only one..." and move on. I think the 'immortal' niche could have been filled by someone better, and more original.

Zorran- I don't really dislike him, I just feel he's not of much use until I get more information on the Lemurians etc. I don't really want to create my own details only to find out I goofed it up totally later on.

Stalwart- For the reasons Lord Liaden has given PLUS the name is just too cool for a guy like that. I may just kill him off so I can free it up.

Stingray- Compared to 4th Edition aquatic villains like Red Tide and Pieces, she just seems blah. Though admitedly, she's last on the list for a reason. I don't mind her that much.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Hmm I better contribute

 

Originally posted by Hermit

The ones that just don't sing for me include:

Gravitar- To repeat what I said about her earlier: I think it's the 'I will personally, single handedly take over the world' thing. It just strikes me as ... well, moronic. She's got to sleep sometime. I'm trying to get over my dislike for what I see as a bland and not too bright overly powered villainess, but it's not coming easy.

 

As she stands now, I'm inclined to concur. OTOH, she is an excuse for an old-fashioned scenery-levelling super slugfest waiting to happen, which can be a fun break from true world conquering masterminds and psychotic killers. However, IMO the real long term interest for Gravitar lies in her potential. On her present course she's cruising for a serious collision with reality, as you point out, and she could go in several different directions as a result: become a serious mastermind villain, or at least a willing member of a group or agency. Gravitar with backups and competent leadership would be a chilling prospect. Or she might even be turned to the side of the angels and become a great force for good.

 

Originally posted by Hermit

Stingray- Compared to 4th Edition aquatic villains like Red Tide and Pieces, she just seems blah. Though admitedly, she's last on the list for a reason. I don't mind her that much. [/b]

 

Stingray seems to suffer a bit from "reboot-itis." If you read the backgrounds to Pisces, Red Tide and Stingray, they come out almost identical: Atlantean princess rebels and tries to seize the crown, fails and is driven into exile. Perhaps the character feels a little tired because we've seen this idea used and reused - it might be quite fresh to someone just entering the 5E CU. (My favorite of the three is Red Tide - solid, consistent power framework and a serious and deadly mean streak. Pisces had by far the coolest costume, though.)

[Enforcer84]

If you ask me, Gravitar seems to be what would your average teenager or genxer do if they suddenly had super powers? She knows that she is one of the baddest of the bad and she's just acting out. I agree with LL, she has potential to become something more than what she currently is. Where as most of the master villains do not.

[Hermit]

Its cool

 

Fair enough, Lord Liaden and others mentioned some plot hooks on the 'seeds' thread that showed some ways Gravitar might grow, and it's that that gives me hope. So, your points about her being able to learn and progress are well made. That's partially what I want this thread for, not just to voice our complaints, but maybe to hammer out how to make said characters better So thanks. I plan on taking some of the ideas rather than making the character bore me to tears.

 

I don't know about the other master villains NOT being able to be more. I see potiential for growth in Menton (believe it or not) , Takofanes (Who I plan to eventually create a team of minions), and the Warlord.

 

Funny though, I LIKE the Warlord, but I'm not nearly as jazzed up on him as some others I've seen on this board.

 

What, does the guy have a beer flavored multipower or something?

[lemming]

Oh yeah; Gravitar: She's got potential once she gets her head handed to her a few times, she might get smarter.

 

And the picture for her IMO was not a very good one.

 

Then again, I've got a large corral of my own villians so I just farm the books for mini ideas.

[Enforcer84]

Okay, but really, is Doctor Destroyer going to get more Ruthless? Is he going to see the light?

 

IMO the biggest "evolution" for Destroyer is if he succumbs to old age and is replaced, the new DrD might have some maneuverability...

 

Warlord has a nice mysterious motivation thing working for him. He could be plumbed for depth by establishing what his deal is.

 

IssT'a Vahsan ?

She already is the Empress of countless Dimensions, I don't see her changing her ways.

 

Takofanes is pretty rigid as well, save for giving him minions as you suggest, Hermit, his goal, like Mechanon is that of the destruction of all mankind. Not really going to see changes of heart from either of those.

 

of course, that's just how I see them.

[Logan D]

I'm with the majority opinion here concerning Stalwart. It would be far more interesting if he _was_ a good guy and the power of the suit went to his head over time. Or how about this - he honestly has good intentions, but he's got a serious weakness. He's an addictive personality and develops a drug or alcohol problem. We've seen in the comics what happened to Iron Man in that situation. Or twist that further and have him preyed upon by a villain or villain group. They develop a designer drug that he gets addicted to and that will kill him or send him into terrible pain and convulsions if he stops taking it. Then they blackmail him... You can se where this is going, of course. Like others have said, just having him be bad from the start is a little too pat.

 

I actually like Nightwing a lot. (I prefer to spell it Knightwing, BTW) As a dark iconic figure who takes up a sort of Batman/Moon Knight role, he's pretty darn cool. I'm also a fan of Gatchaman, and his costume just speaks to me.

 

Gravitar, I both like and dislike. For many of the reasons posted already. I really didn't like her drawing in CKC, but Storn's version of her in an earlier book (where it looks like she's crushing Nightwing) was wonderful. And another picture of her lifting and turning over a BATTLESHIP really gave a great sense of her true power. But yes - she definitely feels like a spoiled teenager who needs a good kick to her reality gland. With that kind of growth she could be a really cool character.

 

Cateran was one of the really good things from CNM, and I was happy to see her included in Champs 5th. But I didn't like her picture in CKC. No offense to Greg, because I normally like his stuff. But that was most definitely NOT his best work. I loved her look in Bay City (hubba hubba!) and if I ever use her in a campaign, that's the picture I'll use for her.

 

Zorran - I pretty much agree. As it stands, he's pretty much "enh" to me. You've seen one villain sorcerer, you've seen them all. Particularly if you're looking at Zorran.

 

Several Members of the War Machine rub me the wrong way for various reasons. Not so much that I couldn't make use of them or some of the ideas. But I wouldn't use them "as is" out of the box. A lot of it is visual. I like Bryce's stuff most of the time. But I felt like he was just "phoning it in" with the pictures he did for Warlord and the War Machine. I've seen those suit designs of his way too many times before.

 

And the first thing that needs to be changed is Warbird's armor suit. Wings are fine. Wings are cool. Birdlike wings attached to the arms, Icarus style, are, IMNSHO, _stupid_, from both a mechanical and tactical sense. How would he ever use his arm mounted weapons without changing direction or falling out of the sky? (Bluejay has much the same problem in my mind. Although I do like her a lot as a character.) Yes, yes, I know, I'm trying to rationalise stuff in a _superhero_ universe. But it just _bugs_ me, okay?

 

Oh, and BTW, I like Devastator's image from Champions a LOT more than the suit that actually got used for Warlord in CKC. I'd switch them, myself.

 

I like the Ultimates a lot. But I don't like Cyclone. He steps on Binder's schtick too much. I don't want another power armor guy in the Ultimates, even if his powers are different. And while Thunderbolt serves the same "ecological niche" as Charger did, I don't understand the necessity of making the switch if you're going to wind up with the same basic types of powers. (Now if Charger got _killed_ in game, I could see Binder seeking out Thunderbolt to replace him.) I see where Radium also "fills in" for Plasmoid. But again - why? Plasmoid was _such_ a cool and strange concept. (with the possibility of turning him into the Emisssary if he gets "repaired") And Radium is just... well, he's just kinda blah. (But if you use Plasmoid, turn him into Emissary, kill him off and _then_ bring in Radium, it makes a certain kind of sense.)

 

All in all, I prefer the version of the Ultimates that appeared in Enemies Assemble and I consider that version to be the definitive one.

 

This version of the Ultimates however does give me the possibility of starting out with one version, and then, through attrition and replacement, utilise characters from either version to fill the holes. That, to my mind, has a _lot_ of potential for the Ultimates as an ongoing nemesis that evolves over time. You can start with the 4th edition version and evolve it to the 5th, or vice versa. Or have a mix of characters. Or heck, use them ALL if you've got a big team and REALLY make your PCs tremble! Even if your players have read both books, they may not know preciesly which line-up of villains they are going to be up against. So this has the potential to be a very useful tool, if rather inadvertantly.

 

Thunderbird - Too much of a Punisher ripoff with a pretty thin motivation.

 

I agree with the assessment of Stingray versus Red Tide. I prefer Red Tide's back story a lot more. In fact, it's so good, I replaced much of Pisces backstory with Red Tide's in my version of the Zodiac. It made a lot more sense and was more consistent.

 

I actually like Sapphire more than the 4th Ed Quantum. She's just a nicer character, and I feel I'd like her more. (On the other hand, the version of Quantum from C:TNM, was actually pretty cool.)

 

There's nothing particularly _wrong_ with Witchcraft (aside from the dorky name - ugh) but I think she is too close to Solitare in terms of power and design. If you're going to change characters, then _really_ change them. I think I'd either wind up just using Solitare instead. I liked her costume, name and backstory better anyway.

 

I like Defender, but in 4th and 5th editions, he's pretty boring. That's not necessarily _bad_. Because he's supposed to be an NPC and he shouldn't show up your PC team leader. But I loved the "Team Defender" concept from C:TNM, and would love to work that in somehow. Maybe just give the character(s) a different name (Team Crusader, perhaps?) and make them based out of MIT or WPI in Boston. That would work really well. Can you imagine a bunch of college guys like the ones from "Real Genius" inventing and taking turns in the power suit? That has _SO_ much potential!

 

(Carl: "So, let me get this straight, you think some mentalist is sending you bad dreams?"

Chris: "Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort of Sun God robes, on a pyramid, with a thousand naked women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"

Mitch: 'No."

Chris: "Why am I the only person that has that dream?")

[Wildcat]

Istvatha V'han

 

The character I most dislike in 5th Ed is Istvatha V'han. I don't see her as being a plausible villain with the kinda resources the book claims she has. I mean once she set her sights on earth, and this dimension... She'd have it.

She has not only the ability to bring numerous supervillains against the PCs but also the entire vastness of 100 million universes. We're talking space armadas that would be so vast as to span light-years from one end to the other. How can you stop that? If I were to use the character as written I'd have to confidently have her unable to mount that large of an assault against this dimension, but that would only work once. With the abilities and resources she has she'd win the next time she came back.

I could see her as being an otherworldly threat, leavign out the fact she has 100 million dimentions to pull resources from, and just give her a small force of D-soldiers and Supers.

[Scott Destroyer]

Hello,

 

Hmm, can't think of any characters I've seen so far that I outright hate, but there are a few that have annoying aspects to them. Some troublesome ones include -

• Gravitar - her place as "premiere mutant villain" in CKC will inevitably bring her comparisons to Magneto, and those comparisons will not be flattering (especially after the last X-Men movie ). "Petulant brat with lots and lots and LOTS of raw power" - doth it really a master villain make? Given the nature of her world domination plans, it seems she should at least demand a refund on the points she spent for her INT 25.
  
• Takofanes - the "undead" theme seems to belong in a "Tomb of Dracula"-style horror comic, fighting the likes of Blade and Brother Voodoo, but his power level is right up there in the league of Dr. Strange's rogues' gallery. It's a discordant mix to me, and also has a bit more High Fantasy flavor than I care for, especially to be fighting so many non-mystical heroes, as he apparently does. He's usable, but I'd far sooner have seen his CKC slot as "premiere magical villain" go to Tyrannon, Dr. Yin Wu, or even this new Skarn the Shaper. (and am I the only one who thinks his name would look much better if you replaced the "f" with a "ph"?)
  
• Anubis - He looks like Anubis, he thinks he's Anubis, he has powers that could be appropriate to Anubis. He's actually Set. Huh? And I know the mask has messed with his head, but he hasn't figured this out? He does have KS: Egyptian Myth & Legend 14-, ya know...
  
• Black Paladin - This one's more of an art nitpick, but it still bugs me. He's supposedly from the Arthurian era, around the 5th and 6th Centuries AD, but his armor looks about 900 years ahead of its time. Even his language is a bit disturbing; the Franks had not long been in Gaul by the time of Arthur, and were by no means the only powerful tribe there...
  
• Cateran - OK, I can see putting a Highlander-style immortal in the book. But to make her Scottish, too? She might as well walk around with "Blatant Rip-Off!" tattooed on her forehead. Her first appearance would bring play to a screeching halt as my Highlander-fan players laughed her out of the room. And if I were going to lift from Highlander, I'd go for the coolest of the cool, and lift Methos... I also wouldn't have minded seeing an Empyrean in the "immortal" slot, since (unlike winterhawk) I do enjoy the "hidden races" themes. (This is also why I cut Zorran a lot more slack than some others here seem to.)
  
• Dr. Silverback - Pure personal preference here; I've just never liked the "intelligent gorilla" schtick; when it's bad, it can be horrible, and even when it's done well, it has a goofy and unoriginal air to it. Still, I admit that it can be done fairly well, and I do like the color art of the Doc in the sidebars here.
  

Originally Posted by Logan D:

Thunderbird - Too much of a Punisher ripoff with a pretty thin motivation.

 

Well, he's in good company then, because the Punisher is himself a blatant ripoff of the pulp-fiction vigilante "the Executioner", Mack Bolan. Punisher seems to have originally been a caricature created essentially so that the Daredevil writers could preach against lethal, non-Comics Code, Executioner-style vigilanteism.

 

Originally Posted by Wildcat:

The character I most dislike in 5th Ed is Istvatha V'han. I don't see her as being a plausible villain with the kinda resources the book claims she has. I mean once she set her sights on earth, and this dimension... She'd have it.

She has not only the ability to bring numerous supervillains against the PCs but also the entire vastness of 100 million universes. We're talking space armadas that would be so vast as to span light-years from one end to the other. How can you stop that?

 

She may be the ruler of hundreds of millions of dimensions, but how many are infinite as this one, and how many are tiny "pocket" dimensions, perhaps devoid of life except for one of her outposts? And she's not the only player in her league. She's Hunted by Tyrannon (who, remember, counts as more powerful than her), and I don't doubt that the large majority of her resources and attention go to defending her current holdings from him, and attacking him where she can. So I have no real problem with her inability to conquer Earth. She also sounds like a good catalyst for a "classic Trek"-style story about how guts, wits, daring, and the indomitable human spirit can overcome aliens with vastly superior resources and technology.

[death tribble]

To reiterate what I have said previously

 

I don't like Vhan. The art on the cover looks ok but the inside drawing is off. And the whole concept. Just reading it left me cold. Plus the fact that I hate Tyrannon as I got the Mystic Masters book when that came out. So that more or less doomed her from the get go.

 

Takofanes. I don't like tha art of him except that one pic of him sitting, down and again reading through did nothing for me.

 

Nebula. I like the pic but the concept and backing story ? No.

 

Herculan. Preferred the old story. Will use the new pic for someone else.

 

The Crowns of Krim. Due to the tie to Krim et al and Takofanes, I just don't think this lot is of use to me. I like what Marchwarden did with them though.

 

The Warlord. I can't seem to get scared of this guy. Not with armour that looks like that. Saw a pic from Storn of a guy called the Warlord and this held attention, presence, a threat.

 

I'll reread the book to see what others I might leave out/alter.