Your least favorite 5th Ed Characters

[Doug McCrae]

Re: Istvatha V'han

 

Originally posted by Wildcat

The character I most dislike in 5th Ed is Istvatha V'han.

Great name, though.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Enforcer84

IssT'a Vahsan ?

She already is the Empress of countless Dimensions, I don't see her changing her ways.

 

 

Well, with few exceptions, V'han has never really been stimied so completely by such little gnats before. I think Earth will intrigue and frustrate her. She has Noblisse Oblige despite her tyranical nature, and I can see her showing a great deal of personality. What if she should grow to know Earth's suffering and becomes quite concerned for its people? What if she attempts to conquer it for its own sake? Can you imagine some heroes reaction when she seems more concerned with the problems of poverty, diesase and war on our world than our own politicans are?

 

There are a few old classics that can be dusted off in order to expound on her. One of her plot seeds in the book involved asking/demanding a PC be her consort. What if she develops geniune feelings for him?

 

I like the Darkseid-Doom mix, the velvet glove over an questionite fist she's got going. I think V'han is going to be seen by many of her subjects as some sort of overpowering primal force...but she's not. Unless the GM decides otherwise, there is no reason not to play her as a woman of power... a modern day Elizabeth or Katherine the Great. She can evolve, for good or ill.

 

 

Mmm... regarding Takofanes, you may have got me there... undeath is traditionally considered somewhat stagnant. However, that does make me think of a new plot. What if Takofanes recognizes he's hit the limit of where Undeath will allow him? Perhaps he'll try to perform some ritual that will make him live again?

 

Dr. Destroyer is Dr. Destroyer, He's on top, and admittedly, the only obvious way for him to move is down. However, I do think this new generation of rivals he has to compete against will eventually surprise him. Plot wise, he's still rich.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Scott Destroyer

 

Anubis - He looks like Anubis, he thinks he's Anubis, he has powers that could be appropriate to Anubis. He's actually Set. Huh? And I know the mask has messed with his head, but he hasn't figured this out? He does have KS: Egyptian Myth & Legend 14-, ya know...

 

I'm not using Anubis either, but it is more because I already had my 'old gods returning' set up. I have to admit, for a supposedly learned guy, he doesn't seem too bright.

[winterhawk]

Art matching life

 

Reading the further postings, I agree with several comments on the art not matching the character:

 

Gravitar: Does she look like a gal with COM 20 in CKC? There are several other pieces featuring her (I especially like Nato's pic of her pulling apart Fiacho in USPDB) that look better. Also, doesn't Gravitar sort of sound like a male codename? I do like the character, though.

 

Warlord: I love Warlord and the War Machine, but doesn't Warlord's armor look like standard issue TURTLE armor rather then the personal armor of the greatest weapons designer in the world?

 

Grond: OK...Its Grond, so the character's cool, one of the standout charcters in the Champions cannon, great piece of artwork from one of my favorite artists, Storn Cook, but...ITS NOT GROND! Sorry, I'm old and cranky and nostalgic on this one.

 

Mister X, Shadowboxer and Scarlet Shield: Storn's interpretations of these guys (especially Shadowboxer) in the memorial pic in the back of MC are far better than what's presented with the character sheets, not to detract from any of the artists talent.

 

On the subject of Takofanes...I wish they wouldn't have made him a lich, which buts up against my distaste for High Fantasy characters in Champs, but he does fit within the universe as presented. Someone mentioned Dr. Strange's Rogues Gallery...I think it would've been neat if he was a weird looking demonic entity like Dormammu.

 

Isvatha is neat, sort of a female Kang...which is a shame due to Busiek's complete overuse of Kang in Avengers and Avengers Forever, which has soured me on dimensional conquerors for the near future.

[Agent X]

1) Monkeys rule! (well, Apes and Monkeys) I love my monkeys. ahem... not in that way.

 

2) V'han is easily fixed by something I don't see Champions books address: Bring in the cosmically powerful entity who requires the heroes to alert it/them to the presence of the threat so they can spank V'han. Dr. Strange did this all the time; you know, Eternity, Living Tribunal, Eon, etc.

 

3) Takofanes not gonna get fixed by me. He's just too much work. I'll drop him because I can do without a weak version of Kulaan Gath.

 

4) Frankly, powerful mystical villains seems to be a weak spot for Champions. They come off pretty plain jane, vanilla - nowhere near as stylish as Baron Mordo and Dormammu.

[Mutant for Hire]

Originally posted by Agent X

2) V'han is easily fixed by something I don't see Champions books address: Bring in the cosmically powerful entity who requires the heroes to alert it/them to the presence of the threat so they can spank V'han. Dr. Strange did this all the time; you know, Eternity, Living Tribunal, Eon, etc.

That's one thing that I think the Champions Universe is missing. An ecosystem of sorts. For every hyper-powerful villain, you need to have something that will keep hyper-powerful villain from using full power to conquer creation.

 

In the case of Vhan, there are a few tricks that one can use. First off, in the case of a vast interdimensional empire, there is a question of how much of her forces are tied down keeping order within the empire. A solid rebellion movement can help explain a lot.

 

Then there is the question of how many forces she needs to secure the "borders" of her empire from rival lords. If taking a world requires enough forces to weaken the defenses of her empire, she's not going to commit her forces. She doesn't dare. So her rivals are also an issue here.

 

So the question is how much in the way of forces can she actually commit to a real invasion of this dimension.

4) Frankly, powerful mystical villains seems to be a weak spot for Champions. They come off pretty plain jane, vanilla - nowhere near as stylish as Baron Mordo and Dormammu.

In part its because you have to compress the character descriptions into a few paragraphs. A lot of the more interesting Marvel/DC characters would come off pretty bland if you compressed things down to that level.

[Doctor Agenda]

Some of the published characters rub me the wrong way, but it's the comic book rip-offs (excuse me, homages) in the timeline that get me. The Fabulous Five? The Secret Crisis? Why not throw in Tarantulaman and the Bulk while they're at it? I think Foxbat adds enough camp to the setting all by himself. I'll make an exception for the Lemurians and the Empyreans because I LIKE the Deviants and Eternals sort of thing, and names DO make a difference. Call the Fabulous Five something like Star Force and the Secret Crisis something like The Event, and that extra bit of differentiation does the trick for me.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Doctor Agenda

Call the Fabulous Five something like Star Force and the Secret Crisis something like The Event, and that extra bit of differentiation does the trick for me.

I very much like the homages and consider them one of the best parts of the new Champions Universe. The point in naming them as they are is as much because of recognition as much as homage. You immediately understand what the Fabulous Five were about in the Silver Age. Calling them Star Force gives the reader absolutely no sense of understanding as to the types of adventures that team was involved in. You end up thinking they are like the Corsairs or something. The same goes with the Secret Crisis. Calling it "The Event" could mean anything, from what created the San Angelo universe to the Pitt event in Marvel's New Universe. By calling it Secret Crisis we have a very good idea what that event was all about. Certain names give us a recognizable mental image that cuts down on the need to spend page space explaining it.

[JmOz]

Scott Destroyer:

 

FYI: Punisher is originaly from Spider-Man not Daredevil

[Doctor Agenda]

Name recognition is pretty much what makes it feel like a campy takeoff.Tarantulaman gives you name recognition, too. I don't stand by my ideas for names because they were off the top of my head, but "Five Americans, entering space in a homemade rocketship, ...." tells me who this entry is supposed to represent. You could call them anything and with that description I know who they're supposed to represent, without any extra page space needed. I LIKE homages, I just prefer a notch less blatancy. If the Fantastic Four means something to you, you can spot them without a sign hanging around their necks. We're far into the realm of personal preferences, though, and I'm happy to move on.

 

Back on the main topic, which I've taken us away from, I'm with Hermit on Zorran...I want to use him but he cries out to have the heroes wind up in Lemuria, which Hero will probably publish something about eventually that I'll want to use but will contradict whatever I may have already done. And we've been given much, much more about the Lemurians than their main enemies, the Empyreans.

[zornwil]

I'm starting to see more of what it is I don't care for in the characters - just plain specificity. I think LESS detail would be better - just little interesting details. If they didn't say much about Lady Hex other than "In the basement she has a pet monster who used to be human. They're friendly, but he tends to go on rampages so he has to be caged." or better yet just a picture of such a thing with just a few words, I'd be more attracted to them. As is, I just get this overwhelming "comic book" sense that seems 2-dimensional. I've SORT of said this in another thread or two but only now am getting a clearer picture of what my issue is. I definitely could see it in SAS, where the theme is overbearingly 4-color and it reverberates through the hackneyed characters.

[Acroyear]

I'm actually not very fond of most of the changes or any of the new characters, to be honest. Maybe I'm just stubborn in my old age or just don't want to wipe away the years and years of history I have with them for the sake of newness and little else.

 

I do absolutely hate Sapphire. I despise her. In the campaign setting I'm working on, I'm considering including the Millennium City stuff (while not being there) and probably one of the first three adventures will be solving a murder mystery. Guess who's dead. And maimed. And makes the coroner not only puke, but have nightmares for the rest of his life. In fact, the inclusion of the Champions would probably be solely so I can entertain my twisted whims in this instance.

 

I also agree with Zornwill... there's just too much info. Cluttered on the page and results in cluttered in use. Because so much is spelled out, I feel it harms the idea machine.

[Black Rose]

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire

In the case of Vhan, there are a few tricks that one can use. First off, in the case of a vast interdimensional empire, there is a question of how much of her forces are tied down keeping order within the empire. A solid rebellion movement can help explain a lot.

 

Then there is the question of how many forces she needs to secure the "borders" of her empire from rival lords. If taking a world requires enough forces to weaken the defenses of her empire, she's not going to commit her forces. She doesn't dare. So her rivals are also an issue here.

 

So the question is how much in the way of forces can she actually commit to a real invasion of this dimension.

 

If you consider that many of her "Billion Dimensions" have loooong since been assimilated by her empire (by like hundreds of years), she probably doesn't need that big an armed force internally. Washington D.C. doesn't bother posting troops in Atlanta to combat the Leeite threat, y'know? Her superbeings might serve primarily as a cross between the Federation and the US National Guard - there to maintain a visible presense for order and to lend a hand when needed for disasters and such.

 

I have to admit, I really like V'han - I'd like to see what people would do when presented with such a offer. She offers peace and plenty, and won't really affect the day-to-day life of anybody. I'd love the chance to play in a world where one of the bigger superteams was composed (almost) entirely of her emissaries - preventing natural disasters, defending the people of earth from supervillians, etc. etc., all while showing the advantages of being part of the Billion Dimensions. Could be fun.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Black Rose

If you consider that many of her "Billion Dimensions" have loooong since been assimilated by her empire (by like hundreds of years), she probably doesn't need that big an armed force internally. Washington D.C. doesn't bother posting troops in Atlanta to combat the Leeite threat, y'know? Her superbeings might serve primarily as a cross between the Federation and the US National Guard - there to maintain a visible presense for order and to lend a hand when needed for disasters and such.

 

I have to admit, I really like V'han - I'd like to see what people would do when presented with such a offer. She offers peace and plenty, and won't really affect the day-to-day life of anybody. I'd love the chance to play in a world where one of the bigger superteams was composed (almost) entirely of her emissaries - preventing natural disasters, defending the people of earth from supervillians, etc. etc., all while showing the advantages of being part of the Billion Dimensions. Could be fun.

That's an interesting twist. Wouldn't it be intriguing to see the players deal with a delicious dilemma where she does something they find morally reprehensible but the populace they represent are solidly loyal to her.

[Guest Keneton]

Well my least favorite 5th character is actually my favorite all time Hero villan "Foxbat". A guy around for that long should have some ep and some levels. Low powered yes, but inexperianced NO!

 

Give the guy some loony skills, some base points, the centipede mobile, some followers... Need I say more?!

 

If he is too squeeby, its not fun. He needs to be able to get away from a fight! CV would help immensly.

 

Other gripes....

 

Mechanon is too wimpy.

 

All powerful Gravitar gets whiped out by 60 active in mental illusions!

 

Blackstar is such a wimp. He has no hope. He is the Giganto of 5th edition!

 

[Jhamin]

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire

That's one thing that I think the Champions Universe is missing. An ecosystem of sorts. For every hyper-powerful villain, you need to have something that will keep hyper-powerful villain from using full power to conquer creation.

 

 

Well, to be fair Vahn is hunted my Tyrannon, who is bought as more powerful.

 

If this is the same Tyrannon from the old 4th edition Mystic Masters then I'm suprised she still has her billion dimensions. He was one bad dude. He kept gods of healing imprisoned in orbit around him just in case he got hurt and had avatar duplicates built on more points than the current Dr. Destroyer.

 

If he is in fact the same guy (and how many Tyrannons were in your graduating class?) that might well explain what keeps her busy.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Jhamin

Well, to be fair Vahn is hunted my Tyrannon, who is bought as more powerful.

 

If this is the same Tyrannon from the old 4th edition Mystic Masters then I'm suprised she still has her billion dimensions. He was one bad dude. He kept gods of healing imprisoned in orbit around him just in case he got hurt and had avatar duplicates built on more points than the current Dr. Destroyer.

 

If he is in fact the same guy (and how many Tyrannons were in your graduating class?) that might well explain what keeps her busy.

Yeah, but not every ultrapowerful being needs to be malevolent. Some of Dr. Strange's adventures seemed centered around just bringing the problem to the attention of the Big Guns or breaking a trap or spell that prevented the Big Guns from waving a hand to save the day.

[Scott Destroyer]

Hello,

 

Originally Posted by JmOz:

FYI: Punisher is originaly from Spider-Man not Daredevil

 

Whoops, good catch, there. He did indeed first appear in one of Spider-Man's books. I tend to forget that, probably out of pure dislike for Daredevil.

 

Originally Posted by Black Rose:

Her [istvatha V'han's] superbeings might serve primarily as a cross between the Federation and the US National Guard - there to maintain a visible presense for order and to lend a hand when needed for disasters and such.

 

I've mentioned before that Istvatha V'han reminds me in many ways of Lilandra of the Shi'ar (with perhaps a dash of Ming the Merciless), and a corps of superbeings in her service would nigh-inevitably draw comparisons to the Shi'ar Imperial Guard, at least from me.

 

Originally Posted by Keneton:

Well my least favorite 5th character is actually my favorite all time Hero villan "Foxbat". A guy around for that long should have some ep and some levels. Low powered yes, but inexperianced NO!

 

Give the guy some loony skills, some base points, the centipede mobile, some followers... Need I say more?!

 

If he is too squeeby, its not fun. He needs to be able to get away from a fight! CV would help immensly.

 

Well, I think his write-up does say to treat him more or less like a "master villain", giving him Vehicles, Bases, and so forth as needed for his plots. And as for getting away from combat, he does have 6 dice (!) of Luck...

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Scott Destroyer

Hello,

 

 

 

Whoops, good catch, there. He did indeed first appear in one of Spider-Man's books. I tend to forget that, probably out of pure dislike for Daredevil.

 

 

 

I've mentioned before that Istvatha V'han reminds me in many ways of Lilandra of the Shi'ar (with perhaps a dash of Ming the Merciless), and a corps of superbeings in her service would nigh-inevitably draw comparisons to the Shi'ar Imperial Guard, at least from me.

 

 

 

Well, I think his write-up does say to treat him more or less like a "master villain", giving him Vehicles, Bases, and so forth as needed for his plots. And as for getting away from combat, he does have 6 dice (!) of Luck...

I was thinking Isthvaha reminded me of Trigon and Raven with a little of Dormammu's sister mixed in.

[Yamo]

Wait a minute, they actually named a female supervillian RED TIDE?

 

Jesus. No wonder she got the boot...

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Yamo

Wait a minute, they actually named a female supervillian RED TIDE?

 

Jesus. No wonder she got the boot...

Aaaaargh, I never saw it that way. Thanks, I think.

[CorpCommander]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Stalwart, from the Champions Universe book, ... What sticks in my craw is that the FBI would choose to pilot their one-of-a-kind anti-supervillain armor, "a former student at the FBI Academy who'd been expelled for cheating on an exam." (CU p. 117) If there was ever a job that called for the best of the best, it's being entrusted with the Stalwart suit.

 

Oh yeah, the US government would never empower someone who shows an undeniable streak of deceit and misuse of the trust of colleagues and the American public. People like Oliver North, Manuel Noriega, and Saddam Hussein never can expect to get power, money and super weapons from the government. Ok, well sometimes the government does F-UP and give these jerks everything they need to run illegal arms sales, become dictators and engage in senseless violence. Further a few of the Law and Military friends I know do quote the dispicable adage: "If you ain't cheatin' you ain't tryin'!" So I can easily see Stalwart getting such power. That level of stupidity really exists.

 

Just my $0.02.

[JohnOSpencer]

Originally posted by Keneton

Well my least favorite 5th character is actually my favorite all time Hero villan "Foxbat". A guy around for that long should have some ep and some levels. Low powered yes, but inexperianced NO!

 

Give the guy some loony skills, some base points, the centipede mobile, some followers... Need I say more?!

 

If he is too squeeby, its not fun. He needs to be able to get away from a fight! CV would help immensly.

 

Just use the version from Enemies Assemble. He had it all. A Secret Base, other "Super" villians in his employ and his legions of agents.

 

John Spencer