Tactics Skill

[Zephrosyne]

I was wondering if I could tap some of you gms for a bit of advice. How do you all adjudicate the Tactics Skill? Do you actually have any hard mechanics that you utilize?

[Edsel]

Re: Tactics Skill

 

Tactics is one of the biggest delimmas in the game. It is a skill that is very rational for for some characters. However the combat system is such that the player's choices in combat are of more value. In other words, if the player plays his character correctly he is exercising good tactics and if he makes poor decisions then he has poor tactics. Still it just makes sense for some characters to have tactics skill.

 

I have done a few things in an attempt to make the Tactics skill useful.

 

1) Allow a side that makes a successful Tactics roll (or wins a skill vs skill contest) to choose the where they enter the field of play. This is only useful if you map out your combat like we do.

2) Allow Tactics to be complementary to skills such as Stealth when scouting enemy positions.

3) On a successful Tactics roll I might give a character a bit of tactical advice about their current situation.

 

I am sure there are other things that I have done on the fly that are not comming to mind right now. I am interested to see what other people propose.

[Zephrosyne]

Re: Tactics Skill

 

Yeah, Edsel, I agree with the difficulty. I am trying to find that balance between making the Skill useful and not simply telling the player what to do. I have a player with it, but I know her well enough to know that she will make it a crutch if I let her. If I have something more concrete and mechanical, it would make things a bit easier.

[Mike W]

Re: Tactics Skill

 

One of the main things I use Tactics for is to decipher what the other side is trying to do, especially if the character also has the appropriate KS to determine the capabilities of people on the other side. "Holding Grond in reserve is highly unusual. You think they're trying to save him to cover their retreat after some sort of quick hit and run raid."

 

Similarly, I'll use it sometimes for people to recognize the effects of terrain such as "this would be a good place for an ambush" or "whichever army takes Deadman's Hill first will have a big advantage for their archers".

 

In either case, it gives the person some useful information but forces them to decide how to act on it.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Tactics Skill

 

You can also use Analyze as a guideline - Tactics is an many ways "Analyze Combat Situation", and the levels of success there can provide some guidance, especially for things like finding a good ambush point and so on.

[John Desmarais]

Re: Tactics Skill

 

I frequently use it in a passive manner (ie. I decide when the player uses it). If the player's announced combat action for his character is something incredibly I'll have the player make a Tactics roll. On a success I'll tell the player why what he's about to do is a bad thing and give him the option of changing is action.

[Zed-F]

Re: Tactics Skill

 

Sometimes I've seen a Tactics roll used to notice something about the environment that people might otherwise overlook as being unimportant. For instance, once when one of my characters was fighting a Doc Ock clone, she noticed a fuse box nearby. Normally that might seem like something which would get overlooked, but the GM only mentioned it once my character had made a tactics roll. She was able to throw one of the Doc Ock clone's metal limbs into the fuse box, causing a short circuit and frying the baddie.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Tactics Skill

 

Tactics is good for characters invovled in large scale combat. Like knowing possibly troop movements, etc.. especially if the PCs are acting as scouts and trying to decipher enemy movements or such.

[austenandrews]

Re: Tactics Skill

 

It hasn't come up much in my games. My old group never bought Tactics or Deduction because past GMs never made them worthwhile. But below are various ways I apply it.

 

- Gives PER bonuses against the group being surprised and/or PER minuses to ambush the enemy (at the usual -1 per 2);

- Can give a DCV bonus to the group (usually +1 or +2) if there's cover or terrain to take advantage of;

- Can give an OCV bonus to the group (usually +1) for double-teaming or crossfire zones;

- Allows Suppression Fire to force the enemy into a particular disposition;

- Gives a leg up on routes of retreat, both for the group and to cut off the enemy's escape.

[Fenixcrest]

Re: Tactics Skill

 

I allow players to make a Tactics check to see if the enemy forces will play into their plan of attack.

That is...

Player: "I'm going to assume that the MANTIS agents will enter from the east doorway, setting off the cryogenic mines I planted there."

GM: "Make a Tactics check. (secretly a -4 penalty, as the north doorway is the more convenient one for the agents to take, since it's wider.)"

Player: "I make it by 6."

GM: "MANTIS agents flood in from the east doorway, or rather, they try to, but find themselves either blocked by or engulfed in ice, based on who was in the front of the line."

[John Desmarais]

Re: Tactics Skill

 

It hasn't come up much in my games. My old group never bought Tactics or Deduction because past GMs never made them worthwhile.

 

No Deduction? Heresy. That's my favorite "I need to smack the player upside the head with a clue stick" mechanic.

[Baphomet Jones]

Re: Tactics Skill

 

I've allowed my players to use Tactics for Surprise Maneuvers in combat, the same way you can use Acrobatics (+1OCV for every 3 pts they succeed by). If they were facing an opponent with Tactics, I made it an opposed roll.

[austenandrews]

Re: Tactics Skill

 

No Deduction? Heresy. That's my favorite "I need to smack the player upside the head with a clue stick" mechanic.

For us it was more of a "player X doesn't want to think very hard" kind of thing.

[Tech]

Re: Tactics Skill

 

When I'm GM'ing and a character has the Tactics skill, often this is how I play with it:

 

1) when I devise something as a GM that the villain is going to do, I tell the person playing the hero with Tactics to roll it. If they make it, they can tell what the villain is about to do and counter it.

2) when the player states his character is going to do something which could have tactical bad results, such as "My hero is going to fly towards the agent and blast him" when you know several agents with energy rifles can now all target him, roll that Tactics skill. If you make it, I warn him that his Tactics skill warns him this could be a bad tactical move and why.

 

Creative use of the skill is needed. Often, the player who has the Tactics skill asks if he can roll the skill to see if, in combat, he can figure out who is the best enemy to target for an attack or something along that line.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Tactics Skill

 

should allow the user to observe the enemy group and determine whether they are performing frequently executed maneuvers, or fighting in a disorganized, impromptu manner.

should also allow the user to figure out whether the trend of battle is going their way or not.

In conjunction with teamwork, I might allow a one or two level bonus for a really good complimentary tactics roll.

[Edsel]

Re: Tactics Skill

 

I found a previous thread that discussed this topic to some length about a couple of years ago the link to that discussion is below.

 

Tactics Skill

[RDU Neil]

Re: Tactics Skill

 

You can also use Analyze as a guideline - Tactics is an many ways "Analyze Combat Situation"' date=' and the levels of success there can provide some guidance, especially for things like finding a good ambush point and so on.[/quote']

 

 

This is how I've used it in the past. Before combat in the "What would be the best approach? How would I avoid an ambush?" or during combat "Ok... you have seen tactics like this. They'll likely have a fire team approaching from your left flank!" or in super mode "You realize that while blasting back and forth, he's been manuevering to keep you away from that doorway!" or "You recognize that he isn't shooting at you, but just behind you to blow the reactor!" or whatever.

 

Essentially, Tactics is a "I gain an advantage" before combat or to avoid combat... or "I get some insight on what the enemy is trying to do!" during combat.

 

There is also an entire thread discussion we could get into about using the gaming concept of Intent and how that can give players a really active roll in using skills like Tactics in helping to tell the story. Don't know if you want to go that deep into role playing technique, though.

[BlackSword]

Re: Tactics Skill

 

Not for Hero, but in other systems, the uses of tactics include:

 

In massive combat, a tactics roll is used to determine the effectiveness of a PC in the middle of a battlefield. PCs with tactics can aid their side towards victory, those without flail around and hope everything turns out of the best.

 

Smaller scale, if the players know an enemy is coming, then a tactics roll can be used to set up an ambush. The enemy will have a penalty for several rounds dependant on how successful the tactics roll was.

 

Regular combat, usually not used except as a coin toss. For instance, looking at several choices, GM "Position A gives you the best tactical advantage, Postion B is an obvious place to go and will give you the chance to look flashy and do something spiffy. Do you have tactics?" Player "No" GM "Then you go to Position B."

[John Desmarais]

Re: Tactics Skill

 

Not for Hero, but in other systems, the uses of tactics include:

 

In massive combat, a tactics roll is used to determine the effectiveness of a PC in the middle of a battlefield. PCs with tactics can aid their side towards victory, those without flail around and hope everything turns out of the best.

 

Smaller scale, if the players know an enemy is coming, then a tactics roll can be used to set up an ambush. The enemy will have a penalty for several rounds dependant on how successful the tactics roll was.

 

Regular combat, usually not used except as a coin toss. For instance, looking at several choices, GM "Position A gives you the best tactical advantage, Postion B is an obvious place to go and will give you the chance to look flashy and do something spiffy. Do you have tactics?" Player "No" GM "Then you go to Position B."

 

Ok. I have to ask. In response to your first sentence: Why not for Hero? All of your points seem to me to be equally as applicable to Hero as any other game (although I usually try to avoid massive scale combats in Hero).

[Zephrosyne]

Re: Tactics Skill

 

Thanks for all of the input. It really helps a lot.

[Phil]

Re: Tactics Skill

 

With skills like Tactics, I'm a big fan of putting the onus onto the player. I as GM will rarely advise a player when to use their tactical knowledge. However, if they want to try and gain some kind of advantage, propose it and I'll adjudicate.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Tactics Skill

 

With skills like Tactics' date=' I'm a big fan of putting the onus onto the player. I as GM will rarely advise a player when to use their tactical knowledge. However, if they want to try and gain some kind of advantage, propose it and I'll adjudicate.[/quote']

 

And this is the best way to use "Intent" with Tactics or many other skills.

 

Not only can the player drive the use of "Tactics" by saying "I want to make a Tactics roll..." they also should and need to make an intent statement along with this.

 

"My intent in using tactics is to...

 

... be able to place my skirmishers in position where the enemy will expose their flanks to them."

 

or

 

 

... make my opponent think I'm wounded and retreating so that he charges forward and gives Magno-Lad a chance to get behind him!"

 

or whatever.

 

It is really about communicating what the player "intends" to have happen as a result of a skill use... giving the GM some idea HOW to adjudicate the roll. Remember, we can't read each other's minds. Being very explicit on what we are imagining... what we think will be the result... what we INTEND to be the result... is a very powerful tool for role playing.

 

Tactics is just one place where you can use this... Intent Statements are critical throughout a game. Think about the following scenario...

 

GM: Dr. Megaton smirks and laughs at all of you, "It is too late! Even if you beat me, you'll never reach the UN in time! I've won! Bwah HA HA HAH HA !"

 

Player 1: Capt. Noble is going to try and sneak past Dr. M and avoid the fight and try to reach the plaza!

 

GM: Player two? What are you doing?

 

Player 2: Meanstreak just stands there.

 

GM: Uh... huh? Ok... Dr. M blasts Capt. Noble as he tries to move past...

 

Player 2: Hey! Why did he do that! I was standing there!

 

GM: Yeah... doing nothing... so he took out Noble!

 

And suddenly arguments ensue because the GM didn't understand Player 2's intent. What needed to be said by player 2 is "I stand there, staring at Dr. M.... and my intent is to keep his attention on me... I want him focused on Meanstreak being all badass so Capt. Noble can sneak around."

 

Suddenly the play group is on a much better level. It is not just describing actions, using a power or rolling a skill... you are stating the INTENT... what you hope the intended outcome will be... WHY you are doing what you are doing... very clearly. This can go a long way toward avoiding miscommunication, empowering the group to all be involved, giving the GM more to work with, giving players more input into driving the story, etc.

 

Now Hero doesn't have built in Intent mechanics... but you really don't need them. It's skills, like tactics, it's action resolution system... all you need to do is add on Intent statements to them to help clarify and help adjudicate.

[Mike W]

Re: Tactics Skill

 

With skills like Tactics' date=' I'm a big fan of putting the onus onto the player. I as GM will rarely advise a player when to use their tactical knowledge. However, if they want to try and gain some kind of advantage, propose it and I'll adjudicate.[/quote']

 

Agreed. I very rarely will tell a player to roll tactics. If they want to use it, they have to say so.

[Mantis]

Re: Tactics Skill

 

Tactics can be used to prevent a character being Surprised, in or out of combat, making characters with this Skill harder to ambush or outflank. Conversely, it is also the skill required for a successful ambush or outflanking maneuver set up by themselves. If both sides have Tactics, a Skill-v-Skill contest results to see whether the Ambush/outflank succeeds.

 

Note that, in general, I don't make players roll to use any Skill, unless in a Skill-v-Skill contest or a critical situation. Merely having the applicable skill is enough for me in most circumstances.

[Kristopher]

Re: Tactics Skill

 

Tactics could be rolled in secret by the GM, to see if they figure out the enemy's tricks before it's too late.

 

 

I know that there are people who strongly oppose rolling for the players, but sometimes it's the only way to avoid telegraphing something to them. Asking the players to roll is basically telling them that something is about to happen, and in some cases it can ruin surprises, tension, etc.