Alternate Initiative Rolls

[Hierax]

Normally Initiative is by straight DEX order, but there are other options, here's a few:

• by DEX, if tied by SPD, if tied Roll off

• by SPD, if tied by DEX, if tied Roll off

• by Roll: DEX rolled as if STR Damage + SPD Score (normal would be 2d6+2, NCM would be 4d6+...) + Lightning Reflexes (acts as a straight + just like the SPD score).

The third one takes a bit more time to "roll for initiative" (monkey boy!) but adds more variation into things. Also, with suitable application of full or partial Standard Effect you can get results without rolling at all or customize the randomness level.

 

Try it.

 

Other options?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Alternate Initiative Rolls

 

IIRC Dark Champions 5E made a formal optional rule out of something that lots of HEROphiles have house-ruled for some time: by DEX, if tied then by INT. This makes sense given that Intelligence as a HERO Characteristic is defined as mental processing speed. It also gives more value to each point of INT, and a reason to not always buy the "efficient" number.

[Just Joe]

Re: Alternate Initiative Rolls

 

I would not want to roll routinely, but I have given some thought to a roll off in particularly dramatic situations where who acts first may be crucial. Something like: act on (Dex minus 1d6). Ties go simultaneously. So a differential of 5 Dex gives the slower character a 1/36 chance of acting at the same time as the faster. A smaller differential allows for the possibility that the slower goes first. A larger differential guarantees that the faster goes first. I would further modify for 1/2 moves and held actions. I don't recall having used this, though I may have long ago and I may do so soon. Whatever you do, I recommend allowing for the possibility of simultaneous action, as I believe that possibility is both realistic and dramatic.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Alternate Initiative Rolls

 

If tied by Dex, I usually go in order of Speed, then (if still tied) call for opposed Dex rolls (with the rolled Dex being modified by Lightning Reflexes, as Lightning Reflexes is really defined as extra Dex used only to resolve the order of Phases). If the opposed Dex roll is tied (both characters make the Dex roll by the same amount) I take whispered declarations of what the characters are doing (if the actions are at all likely to influence each other) and then carefully try to resolve things as if the actions really are happening, "at the same time" (which can take some creative GMing, but happens rarely enough that it isn't much of a burden).

 

My PCs really never buy Luck, but if they did I might place it in the comparison, either before or after Speed (not sure which at this point).

 

EDIT: Oh, my PCs take Unluck even less frequently; actually I would probably use dice of Luck minus dice of Unluck in the comparison.

[mallet]

Re: Alternate Initiative Rolls

 

How about DEX + 2d6?

 

This way characters who have spent the points on a high DEX will still almost always goes first, but it does allow for the rare times when a lower DEX character has a chance move first.

 

Kind of how Warhammer does Init.

[Silbeg]

Re: Alternate Initiative Rolls

 

IIRC Dark Champions 5E made a formal optional rule out of something that lots of HEROphiles have house-ruled for some time: by DEX' date=' if tied then by INT. This makes sense given that Intelligence as a HERO Characteristic is defined as mental processing speed. It also gives more value to each point of INT, and a reason to not always buy the "efficient" number.[/quote']

DC also adds PRE as an additional tie break. Personally, I like the idea of PRE as the second tie-break, as INT already has a huge benefit in game.

 

While I haven't implemented it yet, I may in the future go DEX => PRE => roll

 

Currently, I use the "standard" method of DEX => roll. The twist to this is that I use a little Java application that I wrote a few years ago to manage this... so the "roll" is actually a 32bit signed integer, so ties are extremely rare. In any case, it is all managed by the app, so the order is determined there, rather than by anything in game. My players seem to like it, it does seem to speed the game (at least once the battles start...)

[Hierax]

Re: Alternate Initiative Rolls

 

Normally Initiative is by straight DEX order' date=' but there are other options...:[list']

[*]by Roll: DEX rolled as if STR Damage + SPD Score (normal would be 2d6+2, NCM would be 4d6+...) + Lightning Reflexes (acts as a straight + just like the SPD score).

The third one takes a bit more time to "roll for initiative" (monkey boy!) but adds more variation into things. Also, with suitable application of full or partial Standard Effect you can get results without rolling at all or customize the randomness level.

I've revised this a bit:

• Initiative = Dex Dice + SPD x2 + Lightning Reflexes

DEX as Dice (just like STR Damage) + SPD x2 that can be used with Variable Effect (random diced d6 per 5 DEX) or Standard Effect (+3 per d6).

 

For most characters using the Standard Effect will actually nicely works out to be the same as straight DEX!

• 5 DEX + 1 SPD = 1d6+2 ~ 5
  
• 10 DEX + 2 SPD = 2d6+4 ~ 10
  
• 15 DEX + 3 SPD = 3d6+6 ~ 15
  
• 20 DEX + 4 SPD = 4d6+8 ~ 20
  
• 25 DEX + 5 SPD = 5d6+10 ~25
  
• 30 DEX + 6 SPD = 6d6+12 ~30

Where there is a difference between the standard official "Straight DEX" Initiative Method and this the favour will come on the side of the one with greater Speed going faster. And somehow that little difference just seems more right to me.

 

How does that sound to you?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Alternate Initiative Rolls

 

Ive always used either SPD then DEX then INT or just a simple DEX off depending on circumstance.

 

For players that want some variability in their init I recommend Hipshot and Hurry.

 

Characters that want a "Permanent Hurry" without a downside could do something like this:

 

 

Lightning Reflexes: +6 DEX to act first with All Actions (9 Active Points); Requires A DEX Roll (No Active Point penalty to Skill Roll; -1/4), Result Is Limited To Amount Roll Made By (-1/2); Real Cost: 5 points (assumes a 15+ DEX)

[Dust Raven]

Re: Alternate Initiative Rolls

 

I've always been happy with the standard rules for initiative. In any given segment, all characters act in order of DEX, modified by meta-actions such as Hurry or Hip-Shot. Should any two (or more) characters act on the same DEX (after performing meta-maneuvers), each roll a die, high roll goes first. In the case of a tie on the die roll, the characters must act simultaneously that segment (this usually doesn't mean crap unless the two characters are facing off against each other.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Alternate Initiative Rolls

 

Or. You could roll 1d12 and, starting from the number rolled, count off the appropriate phases. And then for the 'must synch' rule, treat phase 12 as you always have; even if you're trying to match two SPD ratings up (a driver & vehicle) and you can do it no other time, you can do it on Phase 12, and 12 still grants a recovery.

 

I may be missing something, but if you want to change up the order, that's the dirt easiest way to do it.

[ideasmith]

Re: Alternate Initiative Rolls

 

I use by INT, if tied then by SPEED, if still tied then by DEX, if still tied then by PRE, if still tied then by EGO, if still tied then by COM, if still tied then by CON, if still tied then simultaneous.

[Hierax]

Re: Alternate Initiative Rolls

 

Personally, I like the predictable (mainly because I roll pretty poorly most of the time), but some players absolutely LOVE the randomness of dice -- to them that is a big part about what gaming is all about -- I'm trying to cater to that desire but still have it be balanced. They'll happily give up the certainty of a set result and sometimes will do better than average, sometimes worse and would get "bored" with the predictability of it all.

 

I just want to make them roughly balanced so it is merely a matter of personal preferance so people who like the standard "go on your DEX" can work right along side the random rollers.

 

That's the idea anyway.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Alternate Initiative Rolls

 

It's not worth adding a lot of extra time and coomparative stats. We just roll the d6. If it's tied, both actions happen at once, allowing that classic source material result of two near-equal combatants KOing each other.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Alternate Initiative Rolls

 

I've revised this a bit:

• Initiative = Dex Dice + SPD x2 + Lightning Reflexes

DEX as Dice (just like STR Damage) + SPD x2 that can be used with Variable Effect (random diced d6 per 5 DEX) or Standard Effect (+3 per d6).

What I really don't like is treating Lightning Reflexes as different from Dex in this. Lightning Reflexes is based on simply adding to your Dex for purposes of initiative. Not only that, but it is costed as extra Dex with a Limitation, which means that it should never provide more benefit than straight Dex. If you want to add in LR before you calculate the number of, "Dex dice," fine, but having it add 5-for-5 when Dex adds an average of 3.5-for-5 is very wrong IMO.

[Hierax]

Re: Alternate Initiative Rolls

 

Alternate Initiative Rolls (House Rule):

• Goal 1: make it Random or Non-Random as each player and GM wants

• Goal 2: make SPD count as well as DEX

I've revised this a bit:

• Initiative = DEX (+ Lightning Reflexes) as Dice + SPD x2
  

DEX as Dice (just like STR Damage) + SPD x2 that can be used with Variable Effect (random diced d6 per 5 DEX) or Standard Effect (+3 per d6).

 

DEX Dice are like STR Damage Dice but follow the optional rule of "Increased Differentiation" (like STR in the Ultimate Brick p.8 but for DEX):

DEX Dice (Standard Effect)

--- ----

1 1 pip (1)

2 0d6+1 (1)

3 ½d6 (2)

4 1d6-1 (2)

5 1d6 (3)

6 1d6 (3)

7 1d6+1 (4)

8 1½d6 (5)

9 2d6-1 (5)

--- ----

10 2d6 (6)

11 2d6 (6)

12 2d6+1 (7)

13 2½d6 (8)

14 3d6-1 (8)

15 3d6 (9)

16 3d6 (9)

17 3d6+1 (10)

18 3½d6 (11)

19 4d6-1 (11)

20 4d6 (12)

--- ---- NCM

21 4d6 (12)

22 4d6+1 (13)

23 4½d6 (14)

24 5d6-1 (14)

25 5d6 (15)

26 5d6 (15)

27 5d6+1 (16)

28 5½d6 (17)

29 6d6-1 (17)

30 6d6 (18)

--- ---- ACM

 

SPD Bonus

--- -----

1 +2

2 +4

3 +6

4 +8

--- ----- NCM

5 +10

6 +12

7 +14

8 +16

--- -----ACM

For people that don't like the randomness of this they can just use the Standard Effect Rule; For most characters using the Standard Effect nicely works out to be the same as the regular old official straight DEX Initiative!

• 5 DEX + 1 SPD = 1d6+2 ~ 5
  
• 10 DEX + 2 SPD = 2d6+4 ~ 10
  
• 15 DEX + 3 SPD = 3d6+6 ~ 15
  
• 20 DEX + 4 SPD = 4d6+8 ~ 20
  
• 25 DEX + 5 SPD = 5d6+10 ~25
  
• 30 DEX + 6 SPD = 6d6+12 ~30

Where there is a slight difference between the standard official "Straight DEX" Initiative Method and this the favour will come on the side of the one with greater Speed going faster. And that little difference just seems somehow more right to me.

 

How does that sound to you?

[Hierax]

Re: Alternate Initiative Rolls

 

Oh yeah, I also let CSLs to be alloted to add to Initiative as an additional option to put skill into the mix.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Alternate Initiative Rolls

 

IIRC Dark Champions 5E made a formal optional rule out of something that lots of HEROphiles have house-ruled for some time: by DEX' date=' if tied then by INT. This makes sense given that Intelligence as a HERO Characteristic is defined as mental processing speed. It also gives more value to each point of INT, and a reason to not always buy the "efficient" number.[/quote']

 

I also like Dave's idea that was published in the Algernon Files - If Ints are tied, you use Com - because the "camera" goes first to the good looking.

[Hierax]

Re: Alternate Initiative Rolls

 

heh, that's a great way to make COM count!

[CourtFool]

Re: Alternate Initiative Rolls

 

Personally' date=' I like the predictable (mainly because I roll pretty poorly most of the time), but some players absolutely LOVE the randomness of dice -- to them that is a big part about what gaming is all about...[/quote']

 

There is plenty of randomness in the game. If your players are obsessing over adding more in combat, they have too much time on their hands and I hold you personally responsible.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Alternate Initiative Rolls

 

Or. You could roll 1d12 and, starting from the number rolled, count off the appropriate phases. And then for the 'must synch' rule, treat phase 12 as you always have; even if you're trying to match two SPD ratings up (a driver & vehicle) and you can do it no other time, you can do it on Phase 12, and 12 still grants a recovery.

 

I may be missing something, but if you want to change up the order, that's the dirt easiest way to do it.

 

There are certainly merits to this approach for other reasons, but if you are looking to mix up combat order, this only works if everyone has a different SPD which may not be the case, especially in heroic level campaigns.

 

________________________________________________________

"The rich scare me. They can already avoid taxes." - Grim Reaper