Anyone have solutions for the Stun Lottery that a high dice Killing Attack creates?

[AveryKess]

I am running a champions game at the standard power level (350). I find that the most unbalancing things are, surprise, raw killing attacks. One character has 4d6K sword attack (6d6 with STR), max damage of 36 Body, 180 Stun. Sure hitting max damage is 1/279936, but hitting average damage of 21 body with a x5 stun multiple for 105 Stun is a very close to a 1/6 shot.

 

Essentially the difference between HTH and Ranged attacks is the trade off of range and adding extra STR. I am seriously considering a 4d6K cap.

 

Anyone else come up with a way to mitigate the Stun Lottery?

 

I have thought of running a statiscial analysis on damage classes for normal and killing attacks. Anyone done that already?

[assault]

Re: Anyone have solutions for the Stun Lottery that a high dice Killing Attack creates?

 

One character has 4d6K sword attack (6d6 with STR)' date='[/quote']

 

6d6 HKA is an 18 DC attack. This is not a small attack.

 

Anyone else come up with a way to mitigate the Stun Lottery?

 

Don't use it.

 

Use a flat rate, constant Stun modifier instead.

 

It's described in the book. There was an article on the topic in Digital Hero too, IIRC.

 

I've found that doing this gives a feel closer to the source material than the "standard" version.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Anyone have solutions for the Stun Lottery that a high dice Killing Attack create

 

I go the other way.

I use the majority of the combat rules even for my supers games.

It changes the nature of character write ups some from the "standard" champions characters... they look more like superpowerful Heroic characters, But it evens things out quite a bit. There is a much greater chance of doing abnormally high normal attacks, and the highest stun mod location (Head) is hit on a 3-5 on 3 dice rather than a 6 on 1 die. And normal attacks against the same location do double Stun also.

 

It winds me up with a very late-bronze/iron agey feel in combat quite similar to what you find in the Wild Cards books.

A bit more realistic Superheroic, if thats not an oxymoron.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Anyone have solutions for the Stun Lottery that a high dice Killing Attack creates?

 

We use a flat STUNx (usually 3) instead of the Lotto.

 

Or hit locations if you feel like the extra step of another die roll.

[Mantis]

Re: Anyone have solutions for the Stun Lottery that a high dice Killing Attack creates?

 

Anyone else come up with a way to mitigate the Stun Lottery?

Yes, just about everybody .

 

If you use the Search function to look for threads with "Kiiling Attack" in the title, you are bound to find several of these discussions, where a number of folks have put forward their solutions for the Stun Lotto. Reading these should give you plenty of fodder to chew over.

 

I'm sure the hordes will descend on this thread shortly and try to sell you on their favored method. Mine is to roll 2D6 for the STUn dice instead of 1D6 to smoothe the curve.

[assault]

Re: Anyone have solutions for the Stun Lottery that a high dice Killing Attack creates?

 

I wrote:

Use a flat rate, constant Stun modifier instead.

 

It's described in the book. There was an article on the topic in Digital Hero too, IIRC.

 

The article is at: http://www.herogames.com/digitalHero/Samples/dh14stun.htm

[Trebuchet]

Re: Anyone have solutions for the Stun Lottery that a high dice Killing Attack creates?

 

I am running a champions game at the standard power level (350). I find that the most unbalancing things are' date=' surprise, raw killing attacks. One character has 4d6K sword attack (6d6 with STR), max damage of 36 Body, 180 Stun. Sure hitting max damage is 1/279936, but hitting average damage of 21 body with a x5 stun multiple for 105 Stun is a very close to a 1/6 shot.[/quote']That is an enormous attack for a Standard 350 point Champions campaign; the kind I might give to team-busting megavillains. If you feel this character's attack is unbalancing, then ask (or tell) him to reduce it to something more managable. If he refuses, you can always tell him that villains will be similarly equipped.

 

I'm no fan of the Stun Lotto myself, but no written rule is going to work as well as the GM simply saying "I'm sorry, but that's just too big for my game. I don't want PCs to have attacks that big." My general feeling is that enormous Killing Attacks are inappropriate for most superheroes except in Iron Age games; and should be reserved for busting robots and the like where the Stun Lotto is meaningless.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Anyone have solutions for the Stun Lottery that a high dice Killing Attack creates?

 

Like Trebuchet said ... 6d6 Killing is a *huge* attack. An average roll with outright kill a normal.

 

I use Hit Locations, myself. You're much more likely to roll a x3 (giving an amount of stun close to a Normal damage attack of the same DC) due to the bell curve.

[AveryKess]

Re: Anyone have solutions for the Stun Lottery that a high dice Killing Attack creates?

 

That is an enormous attack for a Standard 350 point Champions campaign; the kind I might give to team-busting megavillains. If you feel this character's attack is unbalancing' date=' then ask (or tell) him to reduce it to something more managable. If he refuses, you can always tell him that villains will be similarly equipped.[/quote']

 

It is huge, but 4d6 HKA is still in the realm of "standard," according to the table at the front of FRed.

 

BTW, the PCs are villains in this case. We are waiting for one of our players to return and came up with this to play in the 3-4 month hiatus. I got drafted to run it. I am half tempted to make an NPC with the same power and inflict it upon them and then ask if they want to tone it down. I already told them that I won't feel sorry for them if they die, because they are villains. I will probably institute hit locations or a standard stunX.

 

3 of the 4 players had to make characters with a lot of bookkeeping (1 with multiform (16 animal forms), 1 with summon (4 critters at a time), 1 with duplication (3 totally different forms)).

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Anyone have solutions for the Stun Lottery that a high dice Killing Attack create

 

It is huge, but 4d6 HKA is still in the realm of "standard," according to the table at the front of FRed.

 

Note however, that the chart in FREd is looking at total damage, not base... So if 4d6 is supposed to be the Common Max KA, you're looking at, say, a 2d6 HKA +2D6 from Strength.

[David Johnston]

Re: Anyone have solutions for the Stun Lottery that a high dice Killing Attack create

 

It is huge, but 4d6 HKA is still in the realm of "standard," according to the table at the front of FRed.

 

 

A bit over really. The 2d6 he gets from strength should be included in the DC of the attack and that puts him at 18 DCs. If you gave a character an 18 normal dice attack he'd probably cut a bit of a swathe with that as well.

[McCoy]

Re: Anyone have solutions for the Stun Lottery that a high dice Killing Attack creates?

 

My house rule is a straight 1d6-1 for STUN multiplier. Whhich means a 1 in 6 chance of STUN = 5 times BODY, and a equal chance of zero STUN. Several times I have seen people with serious wounds (including myself once) who said "I didn't feel a thing!" So my players taking killing attacks know that occasionally they will do the rolled BODY and absolutely no STUN.

 

Also like the idea of running an opponent with his same character sheet and a different SX.

 

Or have the characters go up against their heroic dopplegangers from an alternate dimension.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Anyone have solutions for the Stun Lottery that a high dice Killing Attack creates?

 

In my FH game, where big boom-boom magic is an option, you do see Heroics tossing around 6d6 RKAs. it's ALL they do, but they can do it; is it unbalancing? You need hit rolls, and armor, and what have you. It's magic, it's supposed to blow things up. People in direct melee combat generally don't swing for more than 3d6, but they can still purchase all sorts of insanity, including (but not limited too) Sneak Attack damage, Holy Strikes, and what have you.

 

Bigger attacks require responses from bigger creatures/enemies who have niftier outside-the-box attacks and options.

[GoldenAge]

Re: Anyone have solutions for the Stun Lottery that a high dice Killing Attack create

 

We use a flat STUNx (usually 3) instead of the Lotto.

 

Or hit locations if you feel like the extra step of another die roll.

This is what we do also

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Anyone have solutions for the Stun Lottery that a high dice Killing Attack create

 

As said, there are tons of threads, probably especially in the Hero System Discussion sub-forum about the Stun Lotto.

 

If the normal attacks in the game are 12DC, then yes the 18DC KA is outrageous. If the character in question has significantly below-average abilities in other areas (CV, defense) then it might be OK, as he'll only be getting 1-2 shots off before he goes down. If he's up at the caps there too, yeah he's a little out of line.

 

Damage Reduction on major villains makes a huge difference too. When that 75 STUN through becomes 25, makes things easier to handle. Extra STUN too. Be careful though that you don't make the KA completely ineffective or make it so that the players NEED the huge Stun Lotto rolls to have a chance.

 

I've been trying a test rule lately, that if the rDEF of the target is at least twice the Body rolled on the KA, it bounces, no chance for any Stun at all. So if you roll 20 body, and the guy has 40rDef, no damage. And I make sure people are aware of this before they make the characters. If I were to add it to a game in progress, I'd give people a chance to re-write to reflect the house rule (ie perhaps dropping KAs, reworking them to be AP, jiggling their own rDefs, etc).

[Lucius]

Re: Anyone have solutions for the Stun Lottery that a high dice Killing Attack creates?

 

Aside from the options already presented:

 

Use the Normal mechanic. That is, instead of rolling 6d6 for BOD and another die for a STUN multiple, roll 18d6 for STUN and read the BOD just like a normal attack. Then APPLY it like a killing attack, i.e. of course the BOD is still stopped only by resistant defenses, and 100% of damage gets through if there are no resistant defenses.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary also reccommends hit locations, but that's already been mentioned.

[SirViss]

Re: Anyone have solutions for the Stun Lottery that a high dice Killing Attack creates?

 

If you manage to wittle down the numbers of dice that your player's character has in his KA, and you must have an element of randomness, what I do is ½d6+1 instead. You get 2, 3 or 4 (average of 3), you still have a Lotto feel to it with out it quite being as devastating (no 5x).

 

I even believe this is an option suggested in 5ER.

[Robyn]

Re: Anyone have solutions for the Stun Lottery that a high dice Killing Attack creates?

 

My house rule is a straight 1d6-1 for STUN multiplier. Whhich means a 1 in 6 chance of STUN = 5 times BODY' date=' and a equal chance of zero STUN.[/quote']

 

1 through 5 being itself, and 6 being zero, which I thought would be confusing but turned out to be much simplier than always subtracting one.

 

Also like the idea of running an opponent with his same character sheet and a different SX.

 

Or have the characters go up against their heroic dopplegangers from an alternate dimension.

 

The latter of which you have done

 

Closely enough that, when I forgot my character sheet one week, you handed me that of Kaja's alternate self and I was able to play by it

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Anyone have solutions for the Stun Lottery that a high dice Killing Attack creates?

 

Changing the SM to 2-4 also works (1,2,3 = 2; 4,5 = 3; 6 = 4).

 

One way of smoothing the curve is to make KA's 1d6/5 points, so that 6d6 KA rolls 18d6 instead.

 

The total on the dice, minus the number of dice, equals STUN (so total them up and subtract 18). Count the BOD normally, except either count 1's as 1 BOD OR count 5's as 2 BOD.

 

The result is an average similar to current KA's without the wide swings.

 

It also makes it clear a 6d6 KA is not a small attack by any means.

[McCoy]

Re: Anyone have solutions for the Stun Lottery that a high dice Killing Attack creates?

 

1 through 5 being itself, and 6 being zero, which I thought would be confusing but turned out to be much simplier than always subtracting one.

 

 

 

The latter of which you have done

 

Closely enough that, when I forgot my character sheet one week, you handed me that of Kaja's alternate self and I was able to play by it

Hey, respect for the classics! That's venerable comic book cliché #21, "We have to *gasp* fight ourselves!"

[The Souljourner]

Re: Anyone have solutions for the Stun Lottery that a high dice Killing Attack creates?

 

I'll just reiterate what some other people have said - 6d6 killing attack is equivalent to an 18d6 EB. If you wouldn't allow the latter, don't allow the former. Make him drop it to 2d6 or maybe 3d6 for the HKA, and his strength will add 2 to that. In my experience, 60 active points is a good midpoint for attacks. If he has a 5d6 (effective) killing attack, that 75 points, which should definitely be the high end. 90 active points is just crazy. Too too much damage... 21 body and 56 stun on average, with a good chance of 105 stun? Not in my game!

 

That's the real root of the problem here, not the stun lotto (though that doesn't help). My favorite suggestion to fix the stun lotto is 1d3+1 for the multiplier. Some variance, but not enough to make it crazy.

 

-Nate

[Kristopher]

Re: Anyone have solutions for the Stun Lottery that a high dice Killing Attack creates?

 

Others have said parts of this, but:

 

A) 6d6 KA = BIG.

If you don't like the Stun Lotto, go with a fixed mutliplier of 2.5, which is close to the average roll of 2.666~ on the normal 1d6-1 (min 1) roll.

[incrdbil]

Re: Anyone have solutions for the Stun Lottery that a high dice Killing Attack creates?

 

I am running a champions game at the standard power level (350). I find that the most unbalancing things are, surprise, raw killing attacks. One character has 4d6K sword attack (6d6 with STR),

 

nd there is your problem--too many DC's on the attack. DC limits shouldn't just apply just to what is purchased, but to any aded DC's from strength as well. If you have a 12 DC limit, don't let the character buy more Ka than will add up to 12 DC with strength. You get balance, he saves points.

 

Anyone else come up with a way to mitigate the Stun Lottery?

 

there's a billion threads. Billion solutions. Here are the easy ones, ignoring the ones that make new powers, change costs, etcm, reccomend putting advantages on normal attacks etc.

 

Flat stun multipler. You dont roll stun multipliers. Choose what makes you happy as a GM, and stick with it. 2.0 if you only want KA's to do body, but rarely knock anyone out. 2.5 if you want close to the mathmatical average of the current method, but without funky calculations. 2.66 if you want to equal what the current mechanic averages out at, and dont mind always grabbing a calculator. 3.0 if you like flate even numbers, but realize you make KA's better than normal attacks at this point.

 

OR, to retain uncertainty while trimming the worst and best rersults. Use a d3+1 stun multiplier. Comes out to a 2.5 average..whiich is just a shade under the normal method average.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Anyone have solutions for the Stun Lottery that a high dice Killing Attack creates?

 

My house rule is a straight 1d6-1 for STUN multiplier. Whhich means a 1 in 6 chance of STUN = 5 times BODY' date=' and a equal chance of zero STUN. Several times I have seen people with serious wounds (including myself once) who said "I didn't feel a thing!" So my players taking killing attacks know that occasionally they will do the rolled BODY and absolutely no STUN.[/quote']

 

Hmm. You know, now that I think about that ... does that actually change anything from the standard Stun X?

 

Example: 4d6 RKA, 20 DEF (10 Resistant) target. average roll of 14 Body.

Stun X die result of zero: 14 Body, Zero Stun; target takes 4 body, and must, by the rules (barring houserule) take 4 Stun.

 

StunX die result of one: 14 Body, 14 Stun; target takes 4 Body, and must, by the rules, take 4 Stun.

 

I hate just posting examples, but I can't actually explain it in text well. With the rule about having to take Stun equal to inflicted Body, it seems that the target will take Stun, or not, in the same amount, whether the result comes up 1 or zero.

[SirViss]

Re: Anyone have solutions for the Stun Lottery that a high dice Killing Attack creates?

 

OR, to retain uncertainty while trimming the worst and best rersults. Use a d3+1 stun multiplier. Comes out to a 2.5 average..whiich is just a shade under the normal method average.

 

Actually the average of 1d3+1 is 3.