Question about Armor in Champions

[svwerley]

Ok, I'm working with a player on a new character. We're using Hero Builder 2. It looks like it allows the possibility of buying Armor with the disadvantage of 'always on' which would reduce a +20PD +20ED Armor purchase from 60 to 40 points. The character definition is that the char is an extraterrestrial and this is just a natural state of the character's skin/phsycial composition.

 

But this 'disadvantage' of being always on doesn't ring quite right to me. I guess I'm not seeing a down side to being that tough all the time. There's no endurance cost, no focus, so how do you handle justifying the discount with this disadvantage? Is there an in game way to make this disadvantage come in to play? How would you handle an armor purchase of this size?

 

Would you consider lumping things like armor and big flight, etc. under an 'E.T' elemental control to keep costs reasonable?

[Robyn]

Re: Question about Armor in Champions

 

Ok' date=' I'm working with a player on a new character. We're using Hero Builder 2. It looks like it allows the possibility of buying Armor with the disadvantage of 'always on' which would reduce a +20PD +20ED Armor purchase from 60 to 40 points.[/quote']

 

I would post it in the Hero Designer forum as a bug; this sounds to me like a Limitation that isn't limiting (i.e., shouldn't be worth any points).

[teh bunneh]

Re: Question about Armor in Champions

 

It depends on how the GM wants to play it (and you can certainly disallow it in your game), but some of the disadvantages to Always On Armor that come to mind are:

 

• No or severely limited sense of touch. No chance of an intimate relationship with this guy (and I'd probably not let him take this as an additional Phys Lim, since he's already getting points for it.
  
• Ugly ugly ugly. A guy with skin like a rock is never going to win any beauty contests. Distinctive Features, anyone?
  
• If the characer is injured and needs surgury, how's he going to get it? No scalpel in the world can cut through 20 points of rPD.
  
• How about when his Kryptonian Cousin needs a blood transfusion? Same problem.

A creative GM can come up with lots of reasons why it's a limitation to have Always On Armor. Take a look at Marvel Comics' The Thing for some reasons why having this is a bad thing. But if these sorts of problems never come up in your game, then I'd disallow the limitation.

[gojira]

Re: Question about Armor in Champions

 

But this 'disadvantage' of being always on doesn't ring quite right to me. I guess I'm not seeing a down side to being that tough all the time.

 

Hi Svwerly!

 

You'll probably get a ton of post just like this one, but you are spot on. There is no downside to armour that's just being tough all the time. If the special effect of the armour caused some sort of problem, then I could see allowing this lim. That's probably why HD allows it. But the GM always has the final say, not the program.

 

Would you consider lumping things like armor and big flight, etc. under an 'E.T' elemental control to keep costs reasonable?

 

Slots in an elemental control are required to cost END. Armour does not, so no armour can't be in an EC without a really, really good reason. Flight is ok tho'.

[gojira]

Re: Question about Armor in Champions

 

And Bill comes up with some really good SFXs! But make sure that the player really wants a character like this.

 

Taking a lim that's not in the character concept just to shave points is usually not a good idea. Not being able to get medical help could be a really bad idea.

 

Plus, although a scapel couldn't cut him, I bet a grind cutter and a 2 horsepower saw could.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Question about Armor in Champions

 

I would post it in the Hero Designer forum as a bug; this sounds to me like a Limitation that isn't limiting (i.e.' date=' shouldn't be worth any points).[/quote']

It's not a bug. It is functioning perfectly according the rules in the book. If the Limitation in question is not as Limiting as the standard value for it indicates change it.

 

It's not Hero Designer's, or the System's, responsibility to arbiter what is and is not fair/good/right according to the game. That's the GMs and Players jobs.

 

that said.. Armor is one of the few cases where Always On is an appropriate Limitation, Bill Keyes has pointed out several instances it might be a Limitation. It's harder to justify on Armor - but not completely impossible.

[JmOz]

Re: Question about Armor in Champions

 

It depends on how the GM wants to play it (and you can certainly disallow it in your game), but some of the disadvantages to Always On Armor that come to mind are:

 

• No or severely limited sense of touch. No chance of an intimate relationship with this guy (and I'd probably not let him take this as an additional Phys Lim, since he's already getting points for it.
  
• Ugly ugly ugly. A guy with skin like a rock is never going to win any beauty contests. Distinctive Features, anyone?
  
• If the characer is injured and needs surgury, how's he going to get it? No scalpel in the world can cut through 20 points of rPD.
  
• How about when his Kryptonian Cousin needs a blood transfusion? Same problem.

A creative GM can come up with lots of reasons why it's a limitation to have Always On Armor. Take a look at Marvel Comics' The Thing for some reasons why having this is a bad thing. But if these sorts of problems never come up in your game, then I'd disallow the limitation.

 

Time to be a kill joy

1)For some reason people forget that armor has no vissible F/X

2) Not a part of armor, while having it always on does warrent a Phys lim based on it, this is not part of the rules

3) This is a good point, but depending on the nature of the character they might also be entitled to Abnormal Physioligy, a phys lim

 

Now some ways to make it a limit is to play off of other disads, if the character has a SI they need to do some planing why the bullet did not kill him (watch the old Adventures of Superman for ideas here)

 

Explain why you don't have your vacinations

 

Explain why the cab that hit you is dented and your not

 

Basicaly, watch superman...

[teh bunneh]

Re: Question about Armor in Champions

 

Time to be a kill joy

 

True, absolutely true. But my point still stands -- "Depending on the SFX you choose, it can be a limitation... or not. If it's not, don't allow it. If it is, it can be perfectly reasonable."

[Jaxom]

Re: Question about Armor in Champions

 

I'd be very careful about some of the ones that Bill is listing... Clear sign that this should not be a Limitation on the power is when he mentions things that are *other* limitations... Distinctive Features is just that... Take Distinctive Features instead of a limitation on the armor.

 

The limited sense of touch might make sense but if that is the case, then you should be selling back the sense, not taking a limitation on the armor power. I *might* allow the limitation on the basis of the inability to go under a common surgical procedure but then you ask why is this limiting? It means no secret ID as a human. There may be other things that I am not thinking of, but I'd avoid allowing Always On on Armor.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Question about Armor in Champions

 

I'd be very careful about some of the ones that Bill is listing... Clear sign that this should not be a Limitation on the power is when he mentions things that are *other* limitations... Distinctive Features is just that... Take Distinctive Features instead of a limitation on the armor.

 

The limited sense of touch might make sense but if that is the case, then you should be selling back the sense, not taking a limitation on the armor power. I *might* allow the limitation on the basis of the inability to go under a common surgical procedure but then you ask why is this limiting? It means no secret ID as a human. There may be other things that I am not thinking of, but I'd avoid allowing Always On on Armor.

I'd argue the opposite ... take Distiinctive Feature because your Armor is limited in some way that isn't normal, such as Visible and/or Always On.

 

There's no reason that Limitations and Disadvantages can't work together to create the final end result.

[David Johnston]

Re: Question about Armor in Champions

 

I'd argue the opposite ... take Distiinctive Feature because your Armor is limited in some way that isn't normal, such as Visible and/or Always On.

 

There's no reason that Limitations and Disadvantages can't work together to create the final end result.

That is what I call "double dipping", where you take a single disadvantage and collect points for it twice. Is the character who just looks freakish all the time but has no armour at less of a disadvantage than the character who has armour that makes him look freakish all the time? No? Then why should character two get more of a price break?

 

Now, Armour is described as a "Persistent Power" meaning that it is assumed to be on at all times except when he chooses to turn it off. Why would he choose to turn it off? The only reasons I can think of is to allow himself to be injured (to protect a secret identity) or for medical reasons like drawing blood or being operated on. Is that enough of a limitation to justify a point break? Probably not unless the GM is being very gritty with his injury adjudication, in which case it might be worth 1/4. Ordinary for characters who have armor that isn't bought through a gadget the default is that they can't turn it off, but this isn't a problem.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Question about Armor in Champions

 

If a Limitation does not limit the Power in some way, then it isn't worth any bonus. That is highlighted in big bold letters on page 280 of Fifth Edition Revised. Require the player to explain how "Always On" Armor limits his character. If he cannot provide such an explanation, then he can't use this Limitation on his Armor or at least it gives no discount on the cost. The rules only provide a basic framework; they cannot cover every possible permutation. Sometimes (often!) the GM has to say "No" to something that is technically legal.

 

If all he wants is Armor that is obvious (like the Thing's rocky skin), then he can make it "Visible -¼" since Armor is normally an invisible Power. Same value as "Always On," but it obviously makes maintaining a Secret ID much harder.

[Rapier]

Re: Question about Armor in Champions

 

Ok, I'm working with a player on a new character. We're using Hero Builder 2. It looks like it allows the possibility of buying Armor with the disadvantage of 'always on' which would reduce a +20PD +20ED Armor purchase from 60 to 40 points. The character definition is that the char is an extraterrestrial and this is just a natural state of the character's skin/phsycial composition.

 

But this 'disadvantage' of being always on doesn't ring quite right to me. I guess I'm not seeing a down side to being that tough all the time. There's no endurance cost, no focus, so how do you handle justifying the discount with this disadvantage? Is there an in game way to make this disadvantage come in to play? How would you handle an armor purchase of this size?

 

Would you consider lumping things like armor and big flight, etc. under an 'E.T' elemental control to keep costs reasonable?

 

For the most part, I would force the player into Damage Resistane instead. There are few cases were AO is a good limitation for Armour. However, as has been stated:

 

If you ever need blood or IV anything, you are in trouble.

Surgery? Better call in a construction crew!

I always rule that Armour is visible and Damage Resistance (and PD/ED) are not.

Loss of sensation could be a serious issue. It's hard to get jiggy if you keep squashing girlfriends into red paste.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Question about Armor in Champions

 

I'd argue the opposite ... take Distiinctive Feature because your Armor is limited in some way that isn't normal, such as Visible and/or Always On.

 

There's no reason that Limitations and Disadvantages can't work together to create the final end result.

That is what I call "double dipping", where you take a single disadvantage and collect points for it twice. Is the character who just looks freakish all the time but has no armour at less of a disadvantage than the character who has armour that makes him look freakish all the time? No? Then why should character two get more of a price break?

 

Now, Armour is described as a "Persistent Power" meaning that it is assumed to be on at all times except when he chooses to turn it off. Why would he choose to turn it off? The only reasons I can think of is to allow himself to be injured (to protect a secret identity) or for medical reasons like drawing blood or being operated on. Is that enough of a limitation to justify a point break? Probably not unless the GM is being very gritty with his injury adjudication, in which case it might be worth 1/4. Ordinary for characters who have armor that isn't bought through a gadget the default is that they can't turn it off, but this isn't a problem.

I don't see it as double dipping if each one serves a different function.

 

I am not, by any means, saying Always On is a good Limitation for Armor.

 

But let's say for example that it has been allowed because there is also Visible on the Armor making it noticeable, distinctively so. Say a metal looking body. So now the Armor is Limited itself - as well as the character having a rather Distcint Look: Distinctive Feature: Metal Body.

 

They serve different functions, V and AO on Armor means it can't be turned off and everyone know - "Hey! He's got protection!" and DF is "He's got a big metal body, that should make him easy to find..."

[Guyon]

Re: Question about Armor in Champions

 

I like Bill's no intimate contact or surgery. Both those are big disadvantages. What happens if his body goes below 0 and needs medical attention. He could die.

 

Also what about swimming? Can you say drown? No parachute either. The armor might also reflect a minus to certain dexterity rolls. All these unless he buys off the disadvantage and updates his armor by some weird accident. :-)

[Dust Raven]

Re: Question about Armor in Champions

 

If a Limitation does not limit the Power in some way' date=' then it isn't worth any bonus. That is highlighted in big [b']bold[/b] letters on page 280 of Fifth Edition Revised.

 

This statement can't be stressed enough. Unless the Always On Armor is actually limiting the character in some way, it's not worth the point. As others have pointed out, there are some options for this being a legit Limitation... it all depends on how the player wants his character to be played.

[Robyn]

Re: Question about Armor in Champions

 

Also what about swimming? Can you say drown? No parachute either. The armor might also reflect a minus to certain dexterity rolls. All these unless he buys off the disadvantage and updates his armor by some weird accident. :-)

 

Don't go overboard, here. If you really begin heaping on the penalties, then the person who takes Density Increase (for Resistant PD) or some Arachnoweave Armor is taking less of a hit for the same powers. There are Limitations for being unable to swim (actually, this would be a Physical Disadvantage), unable to fly (heavy, extra weight), and more difficult DEX rolls for certain circumstances. Always On isn't one of them. It might be an SFX, if you and the player come up with Disadvantages/Limitations for every difficulty it would impose - the points come from specific problems, and "Always On" is just the reason why those problems exist. Don't let the player get points twice (once for each of the individual problems, again for the condition causing them).

[The Souljourner]

Re: Question about Armor in Champions

 

As others have said, one of the main rules in the book is that if a limitation is not limiting, it's not worth any points. You CAN take Always On for Armor, but it has to be a pretty big problem for the guy. Honestly, I don't think I'd allow it except in extreme circumstances. Certainly "i'm just always tough" is not an extreme circumstance. Always On is one of those easily abused limitations that needs special attention from a GM. In my mind, it should really probably be -1/4 at best.

 

-Nate

[Robyn]

Re: Question about Armor in Champions

 

Certainly "i'm just always tough" is not an extreme circumstance.

 

Likewise, "tough: only when I need to be" is not a Limitation

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Question about Armor in Champions

 

It seems every so often we get the concern that Always on isn't limiting for a defensive power. Can it be limiting? Absolutly. Consider:

 

- what if he needs surgery or medical attention?

 

- a mysterious virus is stripping superhumans of their powers (or maybe it's just lethal). We have discovered the cure - but it needs to be injected.

 

- Can the character maintain a secret ID or go incognito? "Maybe it's Invulnerable Man - stick him with a thumbtack and see if he bleeds"

 

Just off the top of my head, mind you.

[Lucius]

Re: Question about Armor in Champions

 

. But the GM always has the final say, not the program.

.

 

That about says it all.

 

If the player can justify the limitation to you, fine. If not, disallow the limitation. It's your game, not Hero Designer's.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Always On Palindromedary

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Question about Armor in Champions

 

Few notes.

 

First, Reason From Effect. I'm honestly surprised that no one has said this yet. Reason From Effect goes hand-in-hand with "A Limitation that doesn't limit the character isn't worth any points." True dat! There's no limit! Now people have pointed out that armor, by itself, as with most HERO mechanics, can be purchased as-is and has no visible effect. So before he buys 'always on' ask what the Special Effect is.

 

Second, decide if you want his armor to be Always On or not - Bill gave excellent advice, as did Ghost-Angel. I also disagree with David Johnston, but on the exact same grounds that Ghost-Angel did. Just because you're building a huge total effect - like The Thing, or Metallo - doesn't mean it's double dipping. Putting 'Distinctive Features' on the character "Visible Armor" and "Visible Power Effect" on the armor itself isn't double dipping, IMO. It's part of the character construction - one is a limitation, one is a disadvantage. Different things.

 

Phased out there for a second. Sleep. Anyway. Focus on figuring out why, and once you have why, determine if that fits. If that fits, then build the special effects around it; and if you're uncomfortable with it, say, flat out, "That isn't quite what I had in mind for this campaign."

[Vorsch]

Re: Question about Armor in Champions

 

From the other side, out of all the characters published with armour how many could turn it off logically.

 

Can Defender turn off armour? He can take it off but he cant turn it off.

 

Armour needed to be adjusted in 5th but wasent, Pd and Ed exist along with resistant def work fine for armour.

 

Armour should be Visable and always on.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Question about Armor in Champions

 

From the other side, out of all the characters published with armour how many could turn it off logically.

 

Can Defender turn off armour? He can take it off but he cant turn it off.

 

Armour needed to be adjusted in 5th but wasent, Pd and Ed exist along with resistant def work fine for armour.

 

Armour should be Visable and always on.

Defender turns off his Armor by getting out of his battle suit. It's built as OIF, rendering it Visible by default.

[JmOz]

Re: Question about Armor in Champions

 

From the other side, out of all the characters published with armour how many could turn it off logically.

 

Can Defender turn off armour? He can take it off but he cant turn it off.

 

Armour needed to be adjusted in 5th but wasent, Pd and Ed exist along with resistant def work fine for armour.

 

Armour should be Visable and always on.

 

Armor is a short hand for PD. ED. DR packaged together, why should it have limitations that the three line version does not have? Would that not make the three line method superior for no apparent reason except that some people can't help but think of it as visible/always on?

 

For the record: ALways on on armor is cheese, sorry, it is, I would probably allow it as a -0 lim, -1/4 if I am really generous (Or devious)