Heroic vs Superheroic

[Richard Logue]

This is a point that still confuses me. And that might be because out of the whole HERO library I've only ran/played Champions.

 

1. Are the two campaign styles (Heroic and Superheroic) not compatible with each other?

 

2.In Hero Designer I see Talents, for instance, for Fantasy Hero, a book I haven't picked up yet, that seem to be really cheap powers. For example, Beast Speech is 15 points and says you can talk to the animals like Dr Doolittle. Shouldn't that be bought as a Mind Link? Could/should Aquaman buy Beast Speech to talk with the sea critters, or is that incorrect because he's in a Superheroic campaign?

 

3. Are Powers unavailable in Heroic campaigns and genre?

 

4. My concerns here are because of Dark Champions. I just came to the realization that it is really a Heroic-level genre book. Are the DC-specific Talents and such in that book not supposed to be used in my Champions campign? Or can they?

 

I hope my questions aren't as confusing as I am confused. I guess what it really boils down to is the basic question: are Heroic-level genre books and rules compatible with Superheroic-level genre books and rules?

 

Thanks

 

Richard

[Frenchman]

Re: Heroic vs Superheroic

 

1. Are the two campaign styles (Heroic and Superheroic) not compatible with each other?

 

The material from the sourcebooks dedicated to each one is interchangable, yes - but see my last point.

 

2.In Hero Designer I see Talents' date=' for instance, for Fantasy Hero, a book I haven't picked up yet, that seem to be really cheap powers. For example, Beast Speech is 15 points and says you can talk to the animals like Dr Doolittle. Shouldn't that be bought as a Mind Link? Could/should Aquaman buy Beast Speech to talk with the sea critters, or is that incorrect because he's in a Superheroic campaign?[/quote']

 

Talents in the Fantasy Hero book are priced exactly the same way they are in every other 5th ed book I've seen. They are priced as powers, with limitations and/or advantages. Beast Speech is built as telepathy with several limitations. Aquaman COULD buy the talent Beast Speech to talk to fish, but it would also allow him to talk to birds, bears, and aardvarks. Aquaman could also buy a form of telepathy similar to Beast Speech, but more limited, or he could buy a version of Universal Translator, or a mindlink, or if his GM allowed, as a language.

Characters in any type of campaign can buy any talent from any book or even make up their own, as long as their GM approves.

 

3. Are Powers unavailable in Heroic campaigns and genre?

 

Hardly the case. Wizards buy spells as powers, tough detectives buy combat abilities or tricks as powers often, elves and aliens buy enhanced senses while other fantastic races and creatures buy magical racial abilities that couldn't be simulated without powers.

 

4. My concerns here are because of Dark Champions. I just came to the realization that it is really a Heroic-level genre book. Are the DC-specific Talents and such in that book not supposed to be used in my Champions campign? Or can they?

 

I think that DC is a powerful tool for all games, be they super-powered or heroic level, regardless of the genre. I personally have found it very useful in our high-powered Sci-Fi games.

There is not reason your character cannot buy any of the talents from DC, as long as your GM approves.

 

I hope my questions aren't as confusing as I am confused. I guess what it really boils down to is the basic question: are Heroic-level genre books and rules compatible with Superheroic-level genre books and rules?

 

There is very little difference in the rules between heroic and superheroic rules and supplements, and I have yet to see a case where they couldn't be interchanged.

The only real differences between the two involve character creation - the points you have to build your characters on and what they are spent one.

For example, heroic characters generally don't pay for equipment, but they also generally don't have many (if they have any) powers. Most superpowered characters are just the opposite, having to pay for all but the most incidental equipment, and spending the majority of their character points on powers.

Some of the rules are labeled as "heroic" or "superheroic" in the books, but that is really almost meaningless. It simply indicates a rule that creates a better genre 'feel' for one or the other.

For example, heroic games are usually a bit more gritty, with character death being uncommon or rare (as opposed to nigh nonexistant) and combats are accordingly more random and dangerous - thats why it reccommends the Hit Location rules as "heroic" rules.

In superpowered games, few characters have any reason to be worried about a gun or a knife - thats why they recommend using a flat x2 or x3 stun multiplier on killing attacks. Otherwise a .45 could actually hurt (cause stun) to a character built to imitate Iron Man or Colossus (I can't see a GM giving someone enough points to buy 60+ defense and still be effective in other areas)

[caris]

Re: Heroic vs Superheroic

 

The really defining differences between Heroic and Super Heroic tend to be power level, the existence of Normal Characteristic Maxima as a default and wether equipment is paid for outside of character points. The last two in my experience tend to be more flexible than the power level. It is tough to call a PC built on 400 pts with 80 active point attacks a Heroic Level PC, even if the character had to take NCM for no points, and has a dagger they didn't have to pay points for. For example a game based on Dragon Ball Z would be Super Heroic. The characters are very powerful (e.g. splitting mountains in half). Speed Racer, on the other hand, would probably create a Heroic level game. Speed and Racer X is extremely competent in a number of areas, but they won't be destroying mountains easily. In a Super Heroic fantasy game every character has to pay points for their weapons magical or mundane, but in a Heroic campaign "normal equipment" is purchased with money.

 

Wether or not powers are available in a Super Heroic game or not is up to the GM.

 

For example, most spells in a fantasy game are built using Powers. Even if the PCs do not buy them the way that a Super Heroic character would. (Fantasy Hero has a discussion of various ways that characters might be allowed to buy spells other than just paying points for each spell.) In a pulp era game, or a near future science fiction game (without aliens, mutants, cyborgs or psionics) might not have any Powers at all.

 

In 4th (the first edition, I started playing with), Talents were presented as odd and quirky abilities that did not fit quite into the same model as Powers. There was no write up for Talents using Powers. There was just a description of the game effect and the point cost.

 

Talents in 5th have really become a way for GMs to allow Powers into their game in a very strictly controlled manner. One of the innovations was that they were all now built with powers. A GM could say that players are not allowed to buy Powers, but hand the players a list of pre-approved/pre-built Talents that the characters can buy. This can be very helpful for allowing special abilities in, but preventing the game from getting the wrong kind of feel.

 

Take Beast Speech as an example to use it the character has to actually speak out loud to the animal that he wants to communicate with. Aquaman on the other hand did not have to speak out loud, it was all telepathic. In addition, there was some indication that Aquaman could force the sea creatures to obey him. So while you could use the Talent Beast Speech as a place to start building Aquaman's ability, but you would probably change it to accurately reflect the character's ability.

 

1. Generally speaking things need to be scaled up or down to move them from Heroic to Super Heroic. (A Super Heroic Campain might allow/need more levels of Combat Luck than a Heroic Campaign.) There are exceptions to this, for example Universal Translator doesn't really scale.

 

2. You could build an ability like Beast Speech with Mind Link, but Mind Link requires the target to be willing for you to establish the link. Telepathy means the animal will hear and understand you wether it wishes to or not. I covered the rest of that in my example.

 

3 and 4 Whether or not a Talent or Power is appropriate for a game depends a lot of factors. Genre/tone/feel/setting are probably the biggest factor that should be used to determine what should be used. Champions, which focuses on American Comic Book style Super Heroes is not the only option where you have a Super Heroic characters. On the other hand you could have a game an ESPers campaign I ran a long time ago, where you can allow the PC to build their own powers, under strict limits about which Powers can be used, how many Active Points they may have, how those Powers are built, etc.

 

Edit: Basically what Frenchman said, but I took longer to write mine.

[Silbeg]

Re: Heroic vs Superheroic

 

1. Are the two campaign styles (Heroic and Superheroic) not compatible with each other?

Well, you usually wouldn't be running heroic level characters simultaneously with superheroic, though it can be done. I had a campaign that I allowed it (just set an equipment pool for the heroic level characters), but it really didn't work that well...

 

2.In Hero Designer I see Talents' date=' for instance, for Fantasy Hero, a book I haven't picked up yet, that seem to be really cheap powers. For example, Beast Speech is 15 points and says you can talk to the animals like Dr Doolittle. Shouldn't that be bought as a Mind Link? Could/should Aquaman buy Beast Speech to talk with the sea critters, or is that incorrect because he's in a Superheroic campaign?[/quote']

All up the GM. If you have the full rules on a given Talent, there is no reason why you couldn't use it in any given genre, as long as it makes sense. I would definitely allow Aquaman to buy Beast Speech

 

3. Are Powers unavailable in Heroic campaigns and genre?

Well, again, it really depends on the genre, and the GM. It is possible that some powers would make sense in certain genres. In fact, in DC (Dark Champions) HERO introduced the concept of "Super Skills", many of which are actually powers (like autofire for handguns, etc).

 

4. My concerns here are because of Dark Champions. I just came to the realization that it is really a Heroic-level genre book. Are the DC-specific Talents and such in that book not supposed to be used in my Champions campign? Or can they?

They can be used in a Champions campaign if you want them to be. In fact, typically, Champions campaigns tend to have the loosest rules, since any SFX/power can be a super power.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Heroic vs Superheroic

 

This is a point that still confuses me. And that might be because out of the whole HERO library I've only ran/played Champions.

 

1. Are the two campaign styles (Heroic and Superheroic) not compatible with each other?

The primary differences are in the optional rules the GM uses. There are a number recomended for Heroic only, and others for Superheroic only. This is really where the difference lies, in what rules are used for the game. Even then, it's possible to play a "superheroic" game using Heroic suggested rules, or vice versa.

 

2.In Hero Designer I see Talents, for instance, for Fantasy Hero, a book I haven't picked up yet, that seem to be really cheap powers. For example, Beast Speech is 15 points and says you can talk to the animals like Dr Doolittle. Shouldn't that be bought as a Mind Link? Could/should Aquaman buy Beast Speech to talk with the sea critters, or is that incorrect because he's in a Superheroic campaign?

Talents in sourcebooks are built just like Talents in 5ER, using Powers as the base. FH has a number of new Talents, all built this way.

 

3. Are Powers unavailable in Heroic campaigns and genre?

Absolutely! Talents are an example of Powers that Heroic characters can take. Also, FH has wizards who use Powers to build their spells. Dark Champions might has street vigilantees buy special equipment using Powers instead of using money to buy equipment. Ninja Hero martial artists often buy special martial art techniques using Powers.

 

4. My concerns here are because of Dark Champions. I just came to the realization that it is really a Heroic-level genre book. Are the DC-specific Talents and such in that book not supposed to be used in my Champions campign? Or can they?

Such Talents work just fine in a regular Champions game, but the "flavor" of them suits a DC game better I think. Also, when characters are expected to have superpowers, Talents usually are too limited to be of much use. They have their uses, but usually superpowers (bought normally using Powers) usually take the limelight.

 

I hope my questions aren't as confusing as I am confused. I guess what it really boils down to is the basic question: are Heroic-level genre books and rules compatible with Superheroic-level genre books and rules?

 

Thanks

 

Richard

 

The way I see it, Heroic rules lend themselves more to some genres than others, and Superheroic to different genres. You can play a fantasy game using Superheroic rules, for example, but it makes more sense to use Heroic rules, where the character's don't spend point on equipment.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Heroic vs Superheroic

 

It might be easier to think of Heroic and Superheroic not as black & white, but as shades of grey. If your PCs have 350 points with lots of powers and you're using Knockback rules, the game is more Superheroic; if they're 150 points and more skills-based and you're using Wounding rules, then you're probably closer to the Heroic end of the scale. But those are not absolutes; many superheroic campaigns will have some heroic elements and vice-versa.

 

At one point I -- like a lot of people -- thought Hero should've kept Champions seperate from the heroic-level genres. Mostly because I got tired of hearing people dismiss Hero as just "a comic book game" when it's capable of so much more. But I no longer think that way, precisely because I no longer regard Heroic and Superheroic as absolutes.

 

Talents in 5th have really become a way for GMs to allow Powers into their game in a very strictly controlled manner. One of the innovations was that they were all now built with powers. A GM could say that players are not allowed to buy Powers' date=' but hand the players a list of pre-approved/pre-built Talents that the characters can buy. This can be very helpful for allowing special abilities in, but preventing the game from getting the wrong kind of feel. [/quote']

Repped for a well-stated explanation of what Talents are!

[ghost-angel]

Re: Heroic vs Superheroic

 

As others have said it is possible to mix Heroic and Superheroic characters/genres. It is, however, tricky and not always successful.

 

Others have mentioned the Talent issue, so i'll leave it this:

 

mixing the two requires more work and planning on the part of the GM and a bit more maturity on the part of the players. It's very easy for the Superheroic Character to completely overshadow the Heroic Character, the players in mixed games should niche even more than normal. IMO.

[oryanfactor]

Re: Heroic vs Superheroic

 

I'd been thinking about how to handle just this question recently. To me, the main difference is that Heroic Characters have the Maxima and get free equipment, Superheroic ones don't.

 

Use Superheroic characters for Champions, Heroic characters for more pedestrian games. If you want to use a Heroic character in a Superheroic game or vice versa, just do that. It's like a "guest star" spot. However, if the characters interact more often, then have the Character acclimiate to the campaign at large thru a re-write, which should be minor.

 

Example: Superman is Superheroic in his stories, and Heroic in Lois Lane's.

Lois is Heroic in her stories, but Superheroic in Superman's.

[GoldenAge]

Re: Heroic vs Superheroic

 

Mixing can be fun! We've played a Mech Warrior campaign where spaceships had everything in Megascale, drop pods and MechBots were Super-scale and the pilots that jumped out with only pistols and their wits were Hero scale. We found that it all meshed well as long as everyone was onboard.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Heroic vs Superheroic

 

Mixing can be fun! We've played a Mech Warrior campaign where spaceships had everything in Megascale' date=' drop pods and MechBots were Super-scale and the pilots that jumped out with only pistols and their wits were Hero scale. [b']We found that it all meshed well as long as everyone was onboard.[/b]

emphasis mine

 

That's the key to mixing levels/genres. Repped.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Heroic vs Superheroic

 

As others have said it is possible to mix Heroic and Superheroic characters/genres. It is' date=' however, tricky and not always successful.[/quote']

Just to clarify, I didn't mean mixing heroic & superheroic characters. I agree that is problematic; possible, but best not for novices. I was talking about mixing heroic & superheroic rules. For example, Knockback is generally considered a superheroic rule, but I have seen it used in some heroic-level games; conversely, you could conceivably run a "realistic" superhero game without KB, but with Wounding, Hit Location and other traditionally-Heroic rules.

 

Hmm...As I think about it, maybe part of the confusion is that heroic/superheroic is used to refer to:

1. The genre (ie: super-powered people flying around in spandex => superheroic)
   
2. The power level of the characters (ie: 250+ => superheroic), and
   
3. What rules are in use (ie: players pay points for equipment, Knockback, but not Wounding, etc)
   

While the superheroic rules and power level are specifically designed to support conventions of the superhero genre, it is possible to mix-and-match if you're looking for a different feel.

 

G-A, this is starting to sound like our "Is horror a genre or a meta-genre?" debate from a few months back. Maybe we should quit while we're ahead?

 

Mixing can be fun! We've played a Mech Warrior campaign where spaceships had everything in Megascale' date=' drop pods and MechBots were Super-scale and the pilots that jumped out with only pistols and their wits were Hero scale. We found that it all meshed well as long as everyone was onboard.[/quote']

I can see this working, because you've found a way to segregate (for lack of a better word) the heroic and superheroic bits. When the PCs are in the suits, its superheroic; when they're out of the suits, it's heroic. Sounds like a fun game!

[ghost-angel]

Re: Heroic vs Superheroic

 

G-A' date=' this is starting to sound like our "Is horror a genre or a meta-genre?" debate from a few months back. Maybe we should quit while we're ahead? [/quote']

 

naw... we were just talking about the same thing at different levels. you're dead on about mixing the rulesets up. And it's easier than mixing the genre's up.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Heroic vs Superheroic

 

I've found the rules designated "heroic" or "superheroic" to be a lot like features on a computer system. You can choose to toggle any of them on or off, enabling or disabling that particular feature. That will alter how the game plays and the feel of playing it, in ways which you may or may not prefer.

 

IME very few of those rules are completely inappropriate to either heroic or superheroic games; but the more rules recommended for one or the other that you toggle on, the more the feel of the game will shift toward either end of the grim-and-gritty/four-color axis.

[Richard Logue]

Re: Heroic vs Superheroic

 

Okay, well all of your inputs certainly clear things up, and I definately appreciate it. But...

 

How do I arrange the books on my shelf?

 

 

You know what might make a handy reference is a sort of master list of the major heroic-specific rules (such as using a hit location chart) and the superheroic-specific rules (such as knockback). Does this already exist anywhere?

 

 

 

 

No, seriously... How do I arrange the books on my shelf?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Heroic vs Superheroic

 

Well, what I do (at least for Fifth Edition books) is follow the groupings from the Our Products listings here on the website. I start with "HERO System Products," then the "Ultimate" books. That covers eveything that's applicable to all genres. Then I put all the Champions books together, so everything related to supers is in one place. Then follow it up with everything for each other genre.

 

I'm not aware of a specific list such as you describe, but perhaps someone else has come up with one.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Heroic vs Superheroic

 

I just cram all the books onto my shelf in random order. The few seconds it costs me in finding the book I'm looking for is worth it in that I don't have to try to come up with a classification system and then wonder about whether I could have found a better one.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Heroic vs Superheroic

 

I arrange them by SKU, 100 series (Hero Rules); 200 series (Champions); 300 series (Star Hero); 400 series (Ninja Hero); 500 series (Fantasy Hero); 600 series (Dark Champions); 800 series (Pulp Hero).

 

that way all the Genre info is together. As for Heroic/Superheroic rules, I really go Game by Game on which ones to use. Dark Champions tends to use more lethal rules (Bleeding, Wounding) while Superheroic tends towards fast and light (Knockback, no hit locations) and the others mish mash up depending on how "real" vs how "cinematic" I like.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Heroic vs Superheroic

 

How do I arrange the books on my shelf?

 

You know what might make a handy reference is a sort of master list of the major heroic-specific rules (such as using a hit location chart) and the superheroic-specific rules (such as knockback). Does this already exist anywhere?

Well, any such list would be so completely subjective as to be all but useless to anyone other than the guy that wrote it. My list wouldn't necessarily fit your campaign; for that matter, it probably wouldn't even fit my next campaign. Except for a very few rules that directly contradict one another (like Knockback vs Knockdown), pretty much any of the rules can work in any campaign or any genre. It's really just a question of which rules fit the game you and your players want to play.

 

No' date=' seriously... How do I arrange the books on my shelf?[/quote']

[JOE PESCI VOICE] "You were serious about that?!" [/JOE PESCI VOICE]

 

 

Typically by genre seems to work fine for me.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Heroic vs Superheroic

 

I arrange them by SKU, 100 series (Hero Rules); 200 series (Champions); 300 series (Star Hero); 400 series (Ninja Hero); 500 series (Fantasy Hero); 600 series (Dark Champions); 800 series (Pulp Hero).

 

that way all the Genre info is together. As for Heroic/Superheroic rules, I really go Game by Game on which ones to use. Dark Champions tends to use more lethal rules (Bleeding, Wounding) while Superheroic tends towards fast and light (Knockback, no hit locations) and the others mish mash up depending on how "real" vs how "cinematic" I like.

That's exactly how I have mine arranged.

 

Well, except for 5ER, which has a place on the shelf but is never in it.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Heroic vs Superheroic

 

Shelf? Well, the way I tend to arrange them is last ones I had out on top of the pile. Nevermind.

 

Anyway, there are sheets of campaign rule specifications around in places. You know: whether the game uses Hit Locations, Normal Characteristic Maxima, Bleeding Rules, which optional maneuvers, etc. IIRC the 4th edition Champions book (but not the pure Hero book I believe) had at least a basic one. I think Killer Shrike's website has a good one somewhere. That might help you pick out the heroic vs. superheroic rules options.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Heroic vs Superheroic

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/campaignParadigms.shtml

[prestidigitator]

Re: Heroic vs Superheroic

 

Summon: Killer Shrike; Unique Individual; Friendly; Extra Time: 3 days

 

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Heroic vs Superheroic

 

Summon: Killer Shrike; Unique Individual; Friendly; Extra Time: 3 days

 

Nice. Sorry -- went camping for the weekend and was out of pocket.

[Korvar]

Re: Heroic vs Superheroic

 

Nice. Sorry -- went camping for the weekend and was out of pocket.

 

That's just the Special Effect...

[gojira]

Re: Heroic vs Superheroic

 

ok, THAT'S funny. Repped, Korvar, when I can.