Doug McCrae Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 Remember the thread on the old boards It might be an e-mail game.. ? It was a discussion about creating the history/back story for a superhero universe and was absolutely excellent I thought, the best thread ever. I want to revive it by talking about the archetypes one needs for a decent superhero history. The sort that starts in 1938 and includes all the major comics superheroes. Project250 posted a list in the original discussion. Here's my take on it. Is there anything important I should've included but didn't? Anything I did include that you think is unnecessary? Heroes Strongman – Superman, Captain Marvel Avenger – Batman Avenger: Gun-toting – Punisher, Marshal Law, Lobo Avenger: Gun-toting cyborg – Cable Warrior princess – Wonder Woman Patriot – Captain America Speedster – Flash Underwater hero – Sub-Mariner Weaponmaster – Green Arrow Winged hero – Hawkman Magician – Dr. Strange, Spectre, Green Lantern Scientist – Reed Richards Monstrous hero – Thing, Hulk, Swamp Thing Anti-hero – Orion, Luke Cage Anti-hero: Animalistic – Wolverine Anti-hero: Hell-spawned – Spawn, Ghost Rider God – Thor, Sandman Cosmic hero – Silver Surfer, Adam Warlock Man of peace – Professor X Martial artist – Iron Fist, Karate Kid Martial artist: Ninja babe – Elektra, Psylocke, Zealot Version 2.0 – SA Flash Power armour – Iron Man Non-American hero – Captain Britain Young hothead – SA Human Torch Angry black man – Luke Cage Teenager – Spider-man Female version – Supergirl, She-Hulk Shrinker – Atom, Antman Cartoon animal – Howard the Duck Costume based on a playing card – Jack of Hearts Stripper – Lady Death Hero teams The GA team - JSA SA explorers SA teenagers – LSH, X-Men The SA team – JLA, Avengers SA outsiders – Metal Men, Doom Patrol, X-Men Super-agency – SHIELD 70s non-team Bronze Age teenagers – New X-Men, New Teen Titans Non-American team – Alpha Flight International team – New X-Men, JLI, StormWatch Image era gun-wielders – X-Force, Youngblood “What’ll we do tonight, Brain?†– Squadron Supreme, Authority Neutral Hidden race – Inhumans, Eternals, Gorilla City Pantheon – New Gods, Eternals, Olympians, Asgardians Untrustworthy ally – John Constantine Villains Evil version of a hero – Sinestro, Abomination, Titanium Man Catgirl – Catwoman, Cheetah Warped scientist – Lex Luthor, Dr. Sivana Robot - Ultron Death worshipper – Darkseid, Thanos Megalomaniac – Dr. Doom Megalomaniac: Extra-dimensional – Annihilus, Trigon, Dread Dormammu Pure evil – Red Skull Militant - Magneto Monster – Fin Fang Foom Ruler of a hidden race – Mole Man Cult leader – Brother Blood Crimelord – Kingpin, Ras Al Ghul Cosmic being – Galactus, Beyonder Psychopath – Venom Psychopath with style – Joker Destroyer – Doomsday, Fury, Seth Mind controller – Mr. Mind Time master – Kang, Time Trapper Prankster – Toyman, Mr. Mxyztplk Immortal – Vandall Savage Hunter - Kraven “You fool! Your energy blast only makes me more powerful!†– Parasite, Absorbing Man, Sebastian Shaw All the powers of a superhero team – Amazo, Super Skrull Super-gorilla – Titano, Gorilla Grodd Villain organisations International criminal conspiracy – Hydra, HIVE Alien shapeshifters – The Skrulls Theme team – Serpent Society Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djday38 Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 Formar villains going straight - Thunderbolts Villains secretly working for goverment - Suicide Squad Growth Brick - Giant-Man, Goliath. just off the top of my head. rgds Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaeto Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 Originally posted by djday38 Formar villains going straight - Thunderbolts Not anymore. They were written as deciding that to save the world they had to rule it. And that RUNIED the title for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djday38 Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 I had stopped picking up the title before then. It does sound like they ruined the concept which made it unique for me. But I still think the idea of a groups of well known villains attempting to go straight and gain acceptance from the heroic community is a great team concept. rgds Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterhawk Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 Pretty cool and comprehensive list... I would not include "Avenger: Gun-toting cyborg like Cable" because I despise the character, but if your looking to be complete I think you have a good list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rage Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 Originally posted by winterhawk Pretty cool and comprehensive list... I would not include "Avenger: Gun-toting cyborg like Cable" because I despise the character, but if your looking to be complete I think you have a good list. Well what about DeathLok instead? Hes a gun toting Cyborg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BNakagawa Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 SuperPatriot: Captain America Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 Originally posted by Kaeto Not anymore. They were written as deciding that to save the world they had to rule it. And that RUNIED the title for me. Me too! It reinforced everything I hate about the Big Two Comic Companies. "NEt Change Zero" with very few exceptions, the various characters ended up where they started. Heck, they shipped Jolt off to another reality! Guh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 Oh, and something on topic: Child becomes a Man: Captain Marvel (Shazam) Villains: Honorable Enemy: Kang(Later), Dr Doom So-Right Wing Conservative as to be evil: Peter Henry Gyrich, The General Evil Sibling: Black Adam (sorta), Loki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karma Posted June 9, 2003 Report Share Posted June 9, 2003 Originally posted by Kaeto Not anymore. They were written as deciding that to save the world they had to rule it. And that RUNIED the title for me. Really? what ruined it for me was what happened after that (you know how they ignored the original characters and turned it into a totally different comic "Thunderbolts 'Comics for Real Men'" B-A-R-F.) I for one would have liked to see how the 'world domination plans' went and how the various personalities conflicted with each other (I mean the 'World Domination Team' was made up of some interesting personalities, and unlike the orginal Masters of Evil these 'would be benevolent dictators' would have gone about the 'world domination' very differently. No more 'Holding countries to ransom' for them. Even Zemo seemed to have gotten over his 'Captain America' fixation (probably the whole 'I'm cute and Arian again' thing). Anyway, just ranting about the ruination of a great comic by turning it into Marvel's rip off of 'Fight Club'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nucleon Posted June 9, 2003 Report Share Posted June 9, 2003 Originally posted by djday38 I had stopped picking up the title before then. It does sound like they ruined the concept which made it unique for me. But I still think the idea of a groups of well known villains attempting to go straight and gain acceptance from the heroic community is a great team concept I loved the concept too, as I loved "Freedom Force" before that (so many teams with that name -maybe it is an archetype of its own). The first ten issues under Zemo were fine, but I really liked it when Hawkeye took over the team. Then it became too much complicated and arcane, with constantly changing membership and powers, deads that kept coming back, two teams, myriads of obscure organisations, etc, it became an ourobouros. Nucleon says don't drown your players in intricate, neverending, overlapping subplots like Thunderbolts did. Eventually it became a cross between the Masters Of Evil (excellent corny name) and the Defenders. They added heroes designed by the public, which is quite unusual, and brung back to memory sich icons of Marvel's Pink and White period such as Silver Sable. The new Thunderbolts are another thing entirely. I currently give them a 4-issue tryout. Well that was off-topic...but liberating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prometheus Posted June 9, 2003 Report Share Posted June 9, 2003 I would also add: Former Sidekick: Nightwing (or the entire original Teen Titans) Hero, Disgraced: Hal Jordan, Golden Boy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Chaos Posted June 9, 2003 Report Share Posted June 9, 2003 Some More also - Elemental Avenger(s): Swamp Thing, Manthing, The Elementals Religeous Crusader: Zaurial Magical Trenchcoat Hero: Hellblazer, Phantom Stranger About all I can recall I'm sure there are other archetypes though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siberian Tiger Posted June 9, 2003 Report Share Posted June 9, 2003 also.. Hero of the Future sent back in time to save the world - Cable, Terminator2 Clone of a major hero - Superboy, Scarlet Spider Son/Daughter of a villainous mastermind - Shang-Chi Shapechanger - Changeling, Mystique Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Chaos Posted June 9, 2003 Report Share Posted June 9, 2003 some I remembered.. Grower - Giant Man, Apache Chief Entity Possessed Hero - Gargoyle, Etrigan Hero from Another Dimension - Longshot, Shatterstar Kid Chaos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug McCrae Posted June 21, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2003 Here's the latest version, incorporating many of the suggestions provided. My original idea of the essential/useful archetypes for a hero history has changed rather into just trying to compile a list of every major concept that's appeared in comics more than once. So here goes. Heroes Strongman – Superman, Captain Marvel Avenger – Batman Avenger: Gun-toting – Punisher, Marshal Law, Lobo, The Shadow Avenger: Gun-toting: Cyborg – Cable Avenger: Ghost - Spectre Warrior princess – Wonder Woman, Starfire Patriot – Captain America Speedster – Flash Merman – Sub-Mariner Weaponmaster – Green Arrow Magician – Dr. Strange, Dr. Fate, Green Lantern Scientist – Reed Richards Scientist: Inventor – Tony Stark Monstrous hero – Thing, Hulk, Swamp Thing Anti-hero – Orion, Luke Cage Anti-hero: Animalistic – Wolverine Anti-hero: Hell-spawned – Spawn, Ghost Rider, Etrigan, Gargoyle Villain turned hero – Hawkeye, Wolverine, Thunderbolts God – Thor, Sandman Cosmic hero – Silver Surfer, Adam Warlock From an alternate future (mutants only need apply) - Rachel, Cable, Bishop Peacenik – Wonder Woman, Professor X, Dove Martial artist – Iron Fist, Karate Kid Martial artist: Ninja babe – Elektra, Psylocke, Zealot Power armour – Iron Man Non-American – Captain Britain Young Young: The Kid - Iceman, Kitty Pryde Young: Nerd - SA Spider-man Young: Hothead – SA Human Torch Angry black man – Luke Cage Wisecracker – Spider-man Version 2.0 – SA Flash Version 2.0: Legacy – Infinity Inc, modern JSA Imitators (contemporary) - Scarlet Spider Imitators (contemporary): Female – Mary Marvel, Supergirl, She-Hulk Imitators (contemporary): Sidekicks – Captain Marvel, Jr. Shapeshifter – Metamorpho, Martian Manhunter Shapeshifter: Shrinker – Dollman, Atom, Antman, Shrinking Violet Shapeshifter: Grower – Giantman, Colossal Boy Shapeshifter: Stretcher – Plastic Man, Mr. Fantastic Shapeshifter: Animals – Changeling, Chameleon Boy Mentalist – Professor X, Hyp Knox Schizo woman – Aurora, Rogue Cartoon animal – Hoppy the Marvel Bunny, Mighty Mouse, Howard the Duck Costume based on a playing card – Jack of Hearts Hero teams The GA team - JSA SA explorers SA teenagers – LSH, X-Men The SA team – JLA, Avengers SA outsiders – Metal Men, Doom Patrol, X-Men Agency – SHIELD 70s non-team Bronze Age teenagers – New X-Men, New Teen Titans Non-American team – Alpha Flight International team – New X-Men, JLI, StormWatch Image era gun-wielders – X-Force, Youngblood “What’ll we do tonight, Brain?†– Squadron Supreme, Authority Villains Evil version of a hero – Sinestro, Abomination, Titanium Man, Black Adam, Professor Zoom Catgirl – Catwoman, Cheetah Warped scientist – Lex Luthor, Dr. Sivana Robot – Ultron, Computo Wizard – Mordru, Morgan Le Fay Death worshipper – Darkseid, Thanos Pursuer of ‘forbidden knowledge’ – Dr. Doom, Metron Megalomaniac – Dr. Doom Megalomaniac: Extra-dimensional conqueror – Annihilus, Trigon, Dread Dormammu Enemy national – Red Skull, Titanium Man Militant - Magneto Monster – Fin Fang Foom Ruler of a hidden race – Mole Man Cult leader – Brother Blood Crimelord – Kingpin, Ras Al Ghul Mercenary Mercenary: Contract killer – Deathstroke the Terminator, Bullseye God – Loki Satan – Mephisto, Trigon Cosmic being – Galactus, Beyonder Psychopath – Venom Psychopath with style – Joker Destroyer – Doomsday, Fury, Seth Mind controller – Mr. Mind Time master – Kang, Time Trapper Prankster – Toyman, Mr. Mxyztplk Immortal – Vandall Savage Hunter - Kraven “You fool! Your energy blast only makes me more powerful!†– Parasite, Absorbing Man, Sebastian Shaw All the powers of a superhero team – Amazo, Super Skrull, Taskmaster (sort of) Super-gorilla – Titano, Gorilla Grodd Villain organisation International criminal conspiracy – Hydra, HIVE Alien shapeshifters – The Skrulls Theme team – Serpent Society, Force of July The Government - Sentinels, Dr Kriegstein (from the Authority), Force of July Other Hidden race – Inhumans, Eternals, Gorilla City Pantheon – New Gods, Eternals, Olympians, Asgardians ‘Shapeshifter’ (in Campbellian sense) – John Constantine, SA Namor The Rightwinger - USAgent, Guy Gardener Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba smith Posted May 23, 2008 Report Share Posted May 23, 2008 Re: The archetypes no decent superhero history should be without the martial artists sons of the tiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Certified Posted May 23, 2008 Report Share Posted May 23, 2008 Re: The archetypes no decent superhero history should be without Reading this list has reminded me of one very important thing, Marvel just had better names for characters... Okay, it's an opinion but there you go. Hero Turned Villain: Pyro (Okay, he lives in movie land but I'm sure there are other examples) Idealist (Fence Sitters who may be heroes of villains depending on how it fits into their end goal.): Magneto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrestlinggeek Posted May 24, 2008 Report Share Posted May 24, 2008 Re: The archetypes no decent superhero history should be without I can only see one archetype you left out; the one that (imo) best fits Superman: The First. Doesn't really matter what his powers are (although they do tend to overlap with the Strongman), but he is the First known superhero, and generally considered the greatest in his setting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wcw43921 Posted May 24, 2008 Report Share Posted May 24, 2008 Re: The archetypes no decent superhero history should be without I can only see one archetype you left out; the one that (imo) best fits Superman: The First. Doesn't really matter what his powers are (although they do tend to overlap with the Strongman)' date=' but he is the First known superhero, and generally considered the greatest in his setting.[/quote'] I concur. There needs to be someone whose good deeds and heroic ideals 1) make the authorities and the public at large accept the idea of costumed crimefighters and superpowered do-gooders, rather than fear the idea of people who can level cities as easily as an average person can crush an anthill; and 2) inspire other people, superpowered and otherwise, to fight evil and help the innocent. As for explorers, Silver Age or otherwise, there's the Fantastic Four, the Challengers Of The Unknown, and Doctor Who and his companions. The last may not conform to the superheroic model, but they do visit strange and diverse worlds--not to mention fight evil. The Daleks, the Cybermen, the Master--to name but a few--I think most hero teams would cringe at the thought of such adversaries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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