Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

[nexus]

There's two threads on the Speed Zone so far. Anyone have any opinions on the rest of the material? I' m pretty interested in the optional split for Dexterity myself. I think it would solve some issues I've had with Dexterity. I'm waffling on altering the cost for them based archetype though. It could be effective but its dancing sort of close to character classes.

[nexus]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

No commnts on the rest of the book?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

I won't have it for several weeks at least... so I got nothin'

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

I have to wait until after my birthday, then I'll likely order USPD & USKL at the same time.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

I've got to wait till I get back from some training sometime next month. Possibly until GenCon so I can get all 6+ books that are in the queue to be released before GenCon all at once (and save the guys the Shipping cost of sending them to me)

 

TB

[Susano]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

Short review: I've really liked what I've seen so far. I've only just started on the Speed Zone part.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

I've read it through pretty much cover to cover by this point.

 

I love all the sample powers. The "HERO System movement companion" was pretty cool. The in depth discussions on the different kinds of movement powers was really good too. The ideas for a Speedster Campaign, where the Speed Zone rules are, is pretty nifty.

 

All in all I loved the whole thing.

 

Except for the variants of DEX.

That irked me. Not because it was unbalanced or it was neccissarily bad, but I irrationally dislike playing with characterisitics. In my mind, if you start playing with different characteristics it almost isn't the HERO system anymore. Like I said, irrational. Since first edition, the powers have grown and mutated, the advantage limitation system has grown, power frameworks have altered and changed, the skill system has been revamped, talents were added, adders were added, formalized and built uppon. But Characterisitcs have never changed. I think that is also the reason that I am so anti the "STR costs 2 pts" appraoach.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

On the otherhand I would look at that list of improvements and immediately consider an area of the rules that affects so many other things but hasnt been altered to likely be in need of some calibration to make sure it is up to par with all the things that have changed.

[John Desmarais]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

No commnts on the rest of the book?

 

Still waiting for the man in brown to deliver it.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

Still waiting for the man in brown to deliver it.

 

ditto

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

Its a good book; buy it. How's that?

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

On the otherhand I would look at that list of improvements and immediately consider an area of the rules that affects so many other things but hasnt been altered to likely be in need of some calibration to make sure it is up to par with all the things that have changed.

 

Don't go and get all logical on me, I'm talking an emotional reaction here. I'm used to seeing changes everywhere else, but not in characteristics so I respond "NOOOOO!!!!".

[OddHat]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

I like having an official character (Cheshire Cat, p.176) using Clairsentience as a targetting sense. It helps drive home the point that an individual GM has every right to allow that option in a given campaign.

 

It's also done as an adder, which is the way I've been doing it since 5th came out.

 

In turn, that opens the way to fairly direct Clair based Astral Projection builds.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

Yah. I actually really liked the new Cheshire write up, but then he's one of my favorite villains in the CU.

[John Desmarais]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

Except for the variants of DEX.

 

Personally, I thought this was a pretty keen concept. I'm not sure I would ever actually use, but I did think (on paper) it spunds like it would worked well. (Pocket description for those not in the know yet: it breaks DEX out into three 1 point stats, one drives CV, one drives DEX skills, one drives Initiative, and they all combine back to drive base SPD). It addresses one of my problems with speedsters: Why are thier OCVs always so high? This way you can pick and choose the DEX components you want high in a speedsters, but leave low those you don't want.

 

I love to hear from someone who's used it in game regarding how well it works (or doesn't work).

[nexus]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

Personally, I thought this was a pretty keen concept. I'm not sure I would ever actually use, but I did think (on paper) it spunds like it would worked well. (Pocket description for those not in the know yet: it breaks DEX out into three 1 point stats, one drives CV, one drives DEX skills, one drives Initiative, and they all combine back to drive base SPD). It addresses one of my problems with speedsters: Why are thier OCVs always so high? This way you can pick and choose the DEX components you want high in a speedsters, but leave low those you don't want.

 

I love to hear from someone who's used it in game regarding how well it works (or doesn't work).

 

I was looking at it more for Heroic games. Theives and rogue type character end up having higher Combat Values (at least base) than the warriors of the group. Agility, Reaction Time and Hand Eye coordination are different things but attributes as such a good buy it only makes mathmatical sense of buy certain ones up really high.

 

If I used it I'd probably increase the individual costs of the different aspects of Dexterity. The sad thing is the major thing that keeps me from doing it is that it would make Hero Designer much harder to use.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

Personally, I thought this was a pretty keen concept. I'm not sure I would ever actually use, but I did think (on paper) it spunds like it would worked well. (Pocket description for those not in the know yet: it breaks DEX out into three 1 point stats, one drives CV, one drives DEX skills, one drives Initiative, and they all combine back to drive base SPD). It addresses one of my problems with speedsters: Why are thier OCVs always so high? This way you can pick and choose the DEX components you want high in a speedsters, but leave low those you don't want.

 

I love to hear from someone who's used it in game regarding how well it works (or doesn't work).

I haven't used it in a game (yet), but I'm cautiously considering trying it for an upcoming game. (The main obstacle is that I don't want to mess up Hero Designer. )

 

Personally, I would change them ever-so-slightly from the way they're presented in the book. I would make Accuracy affect OCV and fine-control DEX-based skills like Lockpicking. Agility would affect DCV and "whole-body" control DEX-based skills like Acrobatics or Breakfall. Reaction would be unchanged.

 

If I used them, I would probably make SPD a Primary Characteristic.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

Personally' date=' I thought this was a pretty keen concept. I'm not sure I would ever actually use, but I did think (on paper) it spunds like it would worked well. (Pocket description for those not in the know yet: it breaks DEX out into three 1 point stats, one drives CV, one drives DEX skills, one drives Initiative, and they all combine back to drive base SPD). It addresses one of my problems with speedsters: Why are thier OCVs always so high? This way you can pick and choose the DEX components you want high in a speedsters, but leave low those you don't want. [/quote']

 

This sounds great from the aspect of characters who should have good DEX rolls, but not necessarily good CV's. However, I think it's ripe for abuse.

 

Consider Barney the Brick. Barney currently great defenses, a powerful punch and a 20 DEX. He doesn't have any DEX-based skills. He's not really concerned about whether he goes first or last in any given encounter - his defenses and high STUN mean he'll last out a couple of hits. But he is concerned about hitting his target. So Barney (under this new system) doesn't buy up his Skills or Initiative DEX, only his CV Dex. He'll spend the same 30 points, so he has 11- DEX rolls, moves at DEX 10 and has a base CV of 13 (based on his 40 Stat). Maybe he'll sell back 1 point of Skill Dex to books his CV Dex and have a 14 base CV instead. Plus, he gets a huge boost to DCV which will mean his high STUN holds out for much longer.

 

Also consider Wally the Warrior. Wally is very skilled with weapons. Now, he could reflect that by buying three 5 point levels with weapons. However, for the same 15 points, he could buy +9 CV Dex and +6 STR. That gets him +3 OCV, +3 DCV and +1 DC with all weapons, and without weapons. Plus, he'll cash in on some extra Figured's, including a small Speed rebate. Or he can buy +22 CV DEX , save 7 points on Speed and pay the same 15 points. Now his OCV and DCV are each up by 7.

 

So long, skill levels! Even if Wally is subject to NCM, why would he pay 3 points for a level with Swords when he can pay 6 points (a bit less, actually, after the speed rebate) and raise his CV Dex 3 points? he gets the same +1 OCV with swords, and with everything else, plus he gets a bonus to DCV. Sure, it costs more, but Wally's vastly more versatile as a consequence. And what limitation would you give him on those CV DEX points for "No Increase to DCV" and "Only when using a sword"? Say, since they have a Limitation, they're a power - no more NCM!

 

Hey, Merv the Mage wants in on the action. Merv will buy some Drains and Aids for CV DEX. 1d6 cuts his enemy's OCV and DCV by 1 each, on average, or raises his friend's OCV and DCV by 1.

 

The system described above is only functional if the three facets of DEX have equal value in the game. I don't believe they do.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

Yes, Hugh has it exactly.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

The system described above is only functional if the three facets of DEX have equal value in the game. I don't believe they do.

This is why I think it would work better with Accuracy determining OCV, and Agility determining DCV (with Reaction still determining Initiative). I think that balances their value better.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

This is why I think it would work better with Accuracy determining OCV' date=' and Agility determining DCV (with Reaction still determining Initiative). I think that balances their value better.[/quote']

 

I think that helps, although I still anticipate Bricks buying a lot of OCV DEX, and some characters (speedsters, for example) buying a lot of DCV DEX. I don't expect an equal value will be placed on "go first DEX". I'd rather buy more DCV and/or defenses so I can last through the first volley of attacks.

 

Plus, under your method, now all Bricks are great at picking locks, and most rogues have high OCV, so we're back where we started to some extent.

 

Another thought - unless the GM applies some pretty tight constraints, this approach is likely to spread out the OCV and DCV range considerably, as Bricks who previously had a 7 DCV revert to a 3 so they have more points for other things. AoE 1 hex will come into vogue for high DCV characters so they don't need to spend points on OCV.

 

I'm not saying a split isn't workable, but I think the ripple effects will be huge, and have not been considered.

[Zed-F]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

The system described above is only functional if the three facets of DEX have equal value in the game. I don't believe they do.

Yeah, I can see this being very open to abuse, as you describe. Then again, lots of other things are too. Perhaps the usual answer of GM oversight applies. Some kind of rule limiting the amount any one DEX component can be different from the average of the three would probably make sense too.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

Yes, obviously it requires GM oversight. Just because a brick would like to have an OCV of 15 doesn't give him the in-game justification explaining how his eye-hand coordination is so extraordinary. Character concepts still have to be honored and enforced.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

It addresses one of my problems with speedsters: Why are thier OCVs always so high?

 

On the other hand, I have difficulty imagining a speedster without a high OCV. I mean, if you're throwing punches faster than someone can see in detail, just a blur, wouldn't that mean you're more likely to hit/harder to block?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

On the other hand' date=' I have difficulty imagining a speedster without a high OCV. I mean, if you're throwing punches faster than someone can see in detail, just a blur, wouldn't that mean you're more likely to hit/harder to block?[/quote']Maybe only in Hand-to-Hand combat. It doesn't necessarily make your aim with a gun any better, for example.

 

Besides, if you're throwing punches faster than someone can see, that's not necessarily DEX, or even OCV... it sounds more like Invisible Power Effects. Maybe you hit easily with it because they can't see it coming, not because you're inherently accurate with it.