Magic and Mechanics, to you

[Manic Typist]

How do you work magic in your campaigns? What sort of feel do you try for? What sort of limitations and perks do you establish to create the right "flavor?"

 

Hereditary only? Magic is a force that can be seen by all with the right training? Magic is invisible unless you cast a spell to make it visible? Etc.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

I generally go for the basic Turakian Age/D&D setup of magic being accessible, widely-known, widely-used, and used to affect sociological development (use in warfare, architecture, agriculture, etc). The only part I regularly write out is 'mundane' materials used in spellcasting and require only expensive/rare/difficult to acquire. I never really cared for the 'flinging bat poop into the air and making stuff explode' stuff, but things like gems or dragon blood, that works.

[Cantriped]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

I overcomplicate my magic systems. no seriously.

Right now I've got one thats basicly Rune-magic, "Permentant Seals" are built using the Craft power presented in FH, and "quick" ephemeral seals all use a prepared casting system (bout -3 in preperation lims, then Delayed effect).

Activating a Seal always costs end (even Delayed effect ones, though I'm hand waving that those don't automaticlly cost end to set), and requires a Skill roll to chanal the energy (failure indicates increased END costs)

[Talon]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

Very general question, hard to answer with specifics. I tend to go for "magic is rare" settings; my usual guideline is that mage characters should be notably less combat efficient than non-mage characters (the tradeoff being access to all sorts of interesting effects and abilities, of course).

 

I find that it's not so much a question of what mechanics you use, but rather establishing a story-based theme for magic and emphasizing that theme over the mechanics. If my players are talking about the nature of magic rather than the game rules for it, I feel I have done my job.

[CourtFool]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

One thing I have always tried to incorporate into my magic systems is that magic users can automatically sense magic including other magic users. Sort of like Mental Sense for magic. The stronger the magic, the easier to sense, the more difficult to conceal. If a magic user drops a big bomb (usually high AP) then all the mages/sorcerers/wizards in the area are going to come running to see who is doing what. Not to mention a nasty Demon or two.

[OddHat]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

When I re-start my Fantasy campaign, I'll be basing my magic off of David Gemmell's later multiverse.

 

Without artificial aid and in the material world, most sorcerers are limited to astral projection, ESP, Telepathy and other Ego powers. Many need artificial aids even for that (Lorasium Leaves,etc).

 

More powerful effects require lengthy rituals and regalia, and cary the risk of side effects (Demon summoning, transformations), or operate at greatly increased END cost (we see shamans throw lightning, a witch use Pyrokinesis, a Wizard use a fireball, etc).

 

In the Void and beyond (the Astral plane, Limbo, a pocket Hell) we see much flashier effects, so I'd say that the increased END cost vanishes once you leave the material plane.

 

Certain items (sun or blood charged crystals, the Stones of Power, etc) are more or less portable VPPs with END batteries that only recover in a given circumstance. In the case of the Stones of Power, recharging them with Blood causes them to corrupt the user.

 

It's an interesting system, and generally keeps Mage types from dominating combat.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/FantasyHERO.shtml

 

specifically:

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/shrikeMagicDesign.shtml

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/shrikeMagic.shtml

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/shrikeMagicItems.shtml

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/shrikeMagicSystemAdvisor.shtml

[Manic Typist]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

Very general question' date=' hard to answer with specifics. [/quote']

 

 

Yeah, sorry it's such a vague question, but the topic is so humongous that it really is hard to narrow it down. I'm just trying to get a gauge on different "theories" and "feels" of magic that people like. Anything from your classic Merlin mystery wizard who is highly unique to um... well, Harry Potter I suppose.

 

Right now I'm trying to decide what I like. It's definately not Merlin or Harry Potter though, so I'm still searching....

 

Hard to quantify.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

In my games the specifics tend to vary a lot depending on subgenre, setting and power level, although I'm personally fond of powerful, versatile magic that's relatively easy to use. One mechanical build that I often use is Variable Limitations for spells, reflecting that a magician has to do something in order to cast them, but that that something can vary depending on circumstances. I've found that Variable Lim combined with Variable Advantages and Variable SFX make for great flexibility in effect and style without a lot of Power Frameworks.

 

In settings that cross genres (and HERO handles that better than almost any other game) , I've long made a philosophical distinction between the forces of Magic, Technology and Psionics:

 

Technology is fundamentally wholly outside a sentient being. It operates according to consistent, objectively-understandable principles. Although sentients can learn these principles and how to manipulate them through technology, they cannot alter how they function.

 

Magic is both outside and inside a sentient being. Although magic exists as a separate force, its form and function can be shaped through act of will and imagination, usually through the focussing discipline of ritual. Magic can be imbued in objects, but the magic within them still requires an active will to employ.

 

Psionics is wholly within a sentient being. It's generated by living minds, and the only limits on what it can do are the imagination of the psionic individual. One psionic is limited to the power that his own mind can produce, unless he learns to tap into the reserve of power that all minds collectively generate.

 

In universes where all these forces can act on the physical world, there's some overlap in how they affect each other. In other words, it's possible to build technological devices to blunt psionic attacks, or craft magical barriers that resist technological weapons. In general, though, the more sophisticated the spell, device or psionic discipline, the less it's affected by the other forces.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27845&highlight=magic+system+critical+review

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

I'm just modeling a VPP based roughly on d20 (and according to the one wizard, I captured the feel quite well, using KS's system as a starting point). Hwow would I do magic if I could do it over again?

 

To be frank, that's an entirely setting based question. magic for my epic campaign is quite different than magic I'd do for my Sci-Fi campaign which has nothing in common with my Ravenloft campaign or whatever else I run next. So there's ... well, there's just too many options to reasonably discuss them all.

 

Seriously, can you narrow this down?

[Icel]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

[Vanor] A Symphony of Magic covers pretty well the magic system in my campaign setting Vanor, though not completely finished.

[Dale A. Ward]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

The only part I regularly write out is 'mundane' materials used in spellcasting and require only expensive/rare/difficult to acquire. I never really cared for the 'flinging bat poop into the air and making stuff explode' stuff' date=' but things like gems or dragon blood, that works.[/quote']

 

~snicker~

 

Oddly enough, "bat poop" is an excellent source of potassium nitrate which, when combined with sulphur and charcoal, makes black powder...

 

which makes stuff explode.

 

[prestidigitator]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

~snicker~

 

Oddly enough, "bat poop" is an excellent source of potassium nitrate which, when combined with sulphur and charcoal, makes black powder...

 

which makes stuff explode.

 

So's piss.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

The basic concept of my magic system is that anyone can learn to use it through sheer force of will. This makes the associated skill roll EGO based. Casters don't roll every time they cast a spell though, only when trying to research a new one. Spells don't come on scrolls like the other game, you simply think of a spell you want then meditate and practice until it becomes reality (or perhaps fantasy), in a time frame taking 1 day per 10 AP. I allow players to create any spell using the powers in 5ER, but I've split them up into 7 schools: Universal, Restoration, Protection, Summoning, Charm, Elemental, and Transformation. At the end of the time period they make a skill roll at a -1 per 10 AP. Failure means no spell. Success means they add it to their VPP list o' spells.

 

Having someone who already knows a spell train you gives a nice bonus to the skill roll for learning that exact spell. Also, knowing a similar spell or skill helps. For example creating a fireball spell when you already know fire bolt. Creating a "summon sword" spell gets a bonus if they have PS: Blacksmith or Weaponsmith.

 

Spells cause LTE, and this is outlined in detail in Killer Shrike's Adeptology magic style. This limits the players from casting spells all day. I avoided using Charges since I preferred a more freeform "sorcerer-like" style of magic over "wizard-like" prepared magic.

 

Lastly, the most important thing is magic's tie to religion. The main religion of my campaign claims that the Restoration, Elemental, and Transformation schools of magic are gifts by three unique gods. They are adamant that a person is only granted the gift by a single god but the gift spills over into the secondary schools. So, a person could practice Restoration, Protection, and Summoning and be OK with the church. Ahh, but should someone be using Elemental and Restoration, this goes against the church's teachings and they must be getting their power from darker beings! So the church essentially puts a social limitation on "heretics". They don't execute them since they believe murder is wrong, but simply tattoo them so people know not to help them. This helps to limit players from being both an awesome healer and awesome damage dealer, unless they want to roleplay the social limitations in which case they've earned it (one player chickened out during chargen even though he was concerned at his low BODY, STUN, and defenses but stuck with Elemental as his main school).

 

In reality (or fantasy again) gods have nothing to do with the magic. Whether the party decides to unravel this mystery of the church or not is fine with me. But it could be an interesting plot line. There will be plenty of things to do otherwise though.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

In my current campaign, everybody has a base 5 or less to try and do magic. This increases to an 8 or less if you have a related 11 or less mundane skill (Cooking for kitchen-based spells) or 1 point magical skill (fire magic).

 

Note that like singing, although everybody CAN do it, not everybody SHOULD do it.

 

Those who receive training, can get a base 8 or less and buy +1 with magic (5 points) or +1 with a sub-group (3 points) There is a limit of +2 with all magic (they're beginning characters) and a limit of how many bonuses with a sub-group. This is used instead of having a perk. You actually have to invest points at being good at it.

 

The highest spell that can be cast is 30 active points (2nd level), this is much harder than simple spells of 10 active points or less (Cantrips).

 

You can maintain up to INT/3 magical items at a time. Things that are one-shot like potions and arrows are counted as if it was an item of so many charges.

 

Magic is fickle, to that ends, questions about magic are usually answered based on rumors and speculation, hopes and fears. Repeatablity is difficult as trying to repeat a recipe, sure it's usually close, but occasionally it just doesn't work.

 

Limitations that all magic seems to have: ephemeral (to maintain magic requires work), prep time (a lot harder to just snap your fingers and make it work), personal (while you can give a potion for your friend to drink right away, you can't sell him an item and expect it to work once he walks away from you) and usually some Foci.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

In my fantasy campaign, magic is based of a few basic ideas:

 

1) I don't want wizards to be walking artillary platforms.

2) I don't want to hinder the players' creativity.

3) I want to do as little work as possible creating spells and magic systems.

4) Pretty much everyone knows about or has access to magic, but not everyone actually uses it.

5) Magic items are very rare, other than minor items like potions and protective charms.

6) Magic is usually not "flashy". Magic is for doing things you couldn't do otherwise.

7) People use magic in the world because it's useful.

 

Thus, I allow each player to invent their own magic system. No, they can't do just anything they think of. There has to be a reason why they can do what they can do. In the world, each village/town/city has its own native style of magic that it teaches to its people. Not everyone bothers learning it, but if they do, that's the type of magic they'll know. There's enough room in the setting for players to make up their own villages where they're from. Theoretically, a wizard who spends a good deal of time (years) in another village might learn a second style of magic, but this is rare. It's a little easier if the two styles are similar in some why.

Players will decide for themselves what the limits are on their character's magic. Thus, they don't resent me for forcing a particular style on them.

And powers cost full price (though frameworks are available in many cases), unlike the 1/3 cost in TA. If you want to kill something, use a sword. If you want to kill something at range, use a bow. Don't spend all those points on a fireball, when you could buy familiarity with bows for 2 points.

 

There are three basic sources of magic. Each village's type uses one of these sources, or a specific combination. They are:

a) "Art" - magic is a force of nature that you can learn to manipulate through study. In B&D terms, this is "Wizard" magic, mostly. It can take almost any form.

"Favor" - magic comes from supernatural sentient beings, such as gods. In B&D terms, this is "Cleric" magic, more-or-less. Favor magic also comes in many varieties, depending on the being granting the favor.

c) "Gift" - magic comes from within. Some (all?) are born with it and can bring it out and control it through practice and self-awareness. In B&D terms, this is "Sorcerer" magic, kind of. It usually involves mental/physchic/empathic powers. This is the rarest kind, the other two being about equally common.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

I'm just modeling a VPP based roughly on d20 (and according to the one wizard, I captured the feel quite well, using KS's system as a starting point). Hwow would I do magic if I could do it over again?

 

To be frank, that's an entirely setting based question. magic for my epic campaign is quite different than magic I'd do for my Sci-Fi campaign which has nothing in common with my Ravenloft campaign or whatever else I run next. So there's ... well, there's just too many options to reasonably discuss them all.

 

Seriously, can you narrow this down?

 

Actually, I'd rather not. I would like to hear your opinions on why it is appropriate for the different settings to have different magic systems, what those differences should be and for what reason, and how you go about encouraging that feeling.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

~snicker~

 

Oddly enough, "bat poop" is an excellent source of potassium nitrate which, when combined with sulphur and charcoal, makes black powder...

 

which makes stuff explode.

 

 

Yes, I know. However, I prefer 'gesture, incant, effect' to 'gesture, incant, throw animal feces, effect'. I don't get much into symbolism.

[Curufea]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

I established the physics of magic (thus turning it into science) for my fantasy campaign well before I even started fleshing out the world from the brief notes in the previous edition of Fantasy Hero. Magic, Gods, belief and the mind/intelligence are all linked in my Western Shores. It's tidal and has currents, flows (leylines), whirlpools, storms and other weather.

I don't simulate this with rules as there's no point. I use the basic grimoires for fantasy hero for the PCs and NPCs. It isn't important to the players how magic works - it's important to me, because I have guidelines about what can and cannot be accomplished with magic. For example - three sessions ago the high priests of the nation go together to cast a ground to orbit spell to shoot down an invading alien entry pod. It sucked all the free mana out of the city for several hours - giving most mages headaches and causing magical creatures (such as the elf in the party) to become seriously ill and weakened.

Likewise the invasion of the hive mind aliens polluted the area around them disrupting the use of magic for miles, and reducing the power of a character that was an avatar of Thor as well as making spellcasting quite difficult.

My cosmology is in this thread-

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24531

Hmm, 2004 - that was a while ago

[Old Man]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

I use either an EC or no frameworks whatsoever. (I prefer the EC as it encourages players to make either mages or mundanes, not characters who know just one or two powerful spells.)

 

For me what makes Hero magic 'feel' like magic is the limitations, so I pile them on there. -2 is required out of incantations, gestures, concentrate, focus, extra time, rsr and side effect--but really, if you're not limiting the spell to -4 or -5 you're making a Champions superhero, not a wizard.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

From the Designer Notes for Savage Earth:

The magic system for the Savage Earth was designed very carefully, with a backward approach. That is, I decided what sort of world I wanted to portray and worked backward towards a "magic economy" that could produce it.

 

I wanted a typical Edgar Rice Burroughs model of "savage civilization". In many of ERB's novels, cities seem to be fairly isolated. Travel is rare or difficult. One city seems to know little about the other and they are often surrounded by endless tracts of terra incognita. They also seem to lack a lot of the supporting structures that cities require, namely smaller towns, vast systems of agriculture and patterns of trade. This is an inherently difficult construct to support.

 

To this end, the magic system encourages small pockets of high population density. Magic needs to be limited geographically. There need to be intense pressures that keep people from spreading out. The external pressures are wildernesses filled with a variety of "monsters" that are beyond the technology of muscle and steel to overcome. Reavers are the uppermost threat of course, followed by any number of chimeras, barbarians, riven, mutants and so on. In short, conquering the wilderness is beyond the means of any but the most aggressive and toughest of people.

 

The magic of adepts is very effective at reducing the hazards of the wilds. Adepts can repel reavers and produce artifacts capable of long term reaver protection. They can produce warriors, weapons and engines of destruction that can overcome most barbarian, mutant and riven threats. Thus, there is a great tendency of people to cluster around adepts for security. By making the training of adepts dependant on arbitrarily placed Standing Stones, they are anchored geographically. This is why there are a small number of large cities (each founded upon a group of Stones), instead of a large number of smaller towns, each with its attendant adepts. By designing a system in which magic fades rapidly as it gets farther from its adept source, cities are made more compact and less likely to spread or colonize.

 

Initially, the problem of food production becomes paramount. How can these cities produce enough food to support so many people if the lands around them are unsafe for agriculture? The answer is to make food production also dependant upon adepts. Over many years, adepts have developed strains of crops whose yield and nutritional value far surpass even the highest-producing of modern plants. Combined with making most of the cities dependant upon the sea for protein this is sufficient to support an otherwise unlikely population.

 

To see the details of the system, go here.

 

Keith "writes too much" Curtis

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

Clever. Good stuff!

[Manic Typist]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

Very clever actually. I enjoy it.

[Black Rose]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

Oddly enough, "bat poop" is an excellent source of potassium nitrate which, when combined with sulphur and charcoal, makes black powder...

 

which makes stuff explode.

 

So's piss.

Which I firmly think E. Gary Gygax was taking when he came up with the spell system for DnD. I really came in with ADnD (god I loved those books), and while the components were... dramatically apropo, that whole section read like a chuckling shout-out to high school (or possibly college) chemistry and physics. Amber rod and cat's fur for a lightning bolt? Come on now.