Rarity of Magic?

[Kristopher]

I've noticed that it's quiet common in discussions on magic systems and magic use for comments to pop up to the effect that someone wants magic to be rare and difficult, and/or that it should be restricted to specialist casters, at least to some degree.

 

I have two questions for those expressing such sentiments.

 

First, why is this?

 

Second, is this simply what you prefer in your games/settings, or is it something you think should be the case in most/all settings and campaigns?

 

Thanks.

[Eosin]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

I'll take a stab at it.

 

Prevelant magic creates a whole new vista of philosophical-politico-economic structure and social development. You find yourself faced with answering some really ugly questions or hand waving gaping holes in logic. FREX: in a world where instaneous teleportation is possible by 10% of the population why would ships develop or even roads for that matter? What are the economic ramafications if every rare product is literally grown in your back yard? If divination could fortell the single best ruler in the land (and be confirmed from dozens of sources) why would heredity, martial prowess, or popular choice prevail over common knowledge? Would people fear the dark in a world better lit than our own? How do disease models function when super-magic-drugs are capable of healing anything? Does that mean that the fantasy medieval peasant of magic world lives to be 250 years old? How are they supported?

 

Ad nauseum....

 

Common magic, to the degree represented best by D&D, is as unfathomable as generating an earth-like world based on non-euclidian physics 10,000 years in the future with no humans. If you just said "huh," you got the point. Most settings hand wave a number of things for expediency and to capture the feel of semi-medieval fantasy ~ common magic sort of destroys any attempt at hand waving usless you have hands the size of Bigby.

[tkdguy]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

Also, magic is supposed to be mysterious and awe-inspiring. Making it common takes those qualities away.

 

I'll admit I'm not a big fan of magic right now. My last FH campaign didn't even have any.

[OddHat]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

I pretty much agree with Eosin on the "whys", but I have a bit to add.

 

If I want to run a game in a society fairly close to any single historical period, common magic requires me to re-work large chunks of the culture, social order, economy, theology, etc. Now I can hand wave this (most writers do), but it's generally easier if I keep magic rare and relatively weak.

 

That said, my Atlantis campaign had common, powerful magic that did completely dominate that society.

 

A Chinese Wuxia campaign can also sustain very powerful, over the top magic, as the society of Taoist Immortals and other users of magic is mostly separate from that of ordinary Chinese peasants and nobles. The Masters could change society, but even the most benevolent would rather concentrate on internal struggles and non-material pursuits. Those few practical tyupes who try to learn just enough magic to gain some material advantage tend to get sucked in to the weird lifestyle of the masters. That's probably the easiest way to handle high power magic in a semi-historical campaign.

 

I would never claim that my way is the only way to run things. Tastes be tastes.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

Does that mean that the fantasy medieval peasant of magic world lives to be 250 years old? How are they supported?

 

Why do we have peasants if magic is common? We can grow food magically, harvest it magically and distribute it magically. Why should anyone have to do any real work if magic is common?

[Kristopher]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

There's a matter of scale that I don't think is being addressed here.

 

There's a difference between a lot of people having the magic to light a campfire without tools, and a lot of people having the magic to light a city block on fire with a wave of the hand. There's a difference between magic that can bless the crops that were planted by hand and increase the yield a bit, keep the bugs off it, whatever, and magic that can make hundreds of bushel baskets of grain appear out of thin air.

 

 

Also, setting aside the difficult implications for worldbuilding, there seems to be an actual distaste for common magic, but that could be me reading too much into the statements.

[OddHat]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

There's a matter of scale that I don't think is being addressed here.

 

There's a difference between a lot of people having the magic to light a campfire without tools, and a lot of people having the magic to light a city block on fire with a wave of the hand. There's a difference between magic that can bless the crops that were planted by hand and increase the yield a bit, keep the bugs off it, whatever, and magic that can make hundreds of bushel baskets of grain appear out of thin air.

 

Yes, there is that. That's why a David Gemmell style village witch who can serve as a one woman ER, Pharmacy and farm supply store (using magic for all three) can more easily fit into a semi-historical setting than fith season Willow from Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

 

Also, setting aside the difficult implications for worldbuilding, there seems to be an actual distaste for common magic, but that could be me reading too much into the statements.

 

Having run some games where magic almost completely replaces other forms of technology, I wouldn't say I have a distaste for common magic. It's not suited for all styles of Fantasy story, but it can work.

[Cantriped]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

Well there is a certain level of distaste for common magic aside from just a cultural standpoint. When something becomes common it becomes more like a science and less like mystisism. From my experience mystisism has a lot more plot hook in it then science since it doesn't matter if it's actually true or not, the people believe thats how it works.

 

As for my personal taste in magic I'd have to say, given that I prefer to play mages I personally like magic to be playable (not inanly limited), but at the same time I'm drawn to the aspects of mystisism and intrigue that magic can produce, I like the idea of magic being awe inspiring and valuable as a skill, wether it's overpoweringly effective in combat or not.

[Markdoc]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

The difficulties of making up a setting with magic is common have already been described: to make an analogy, I am running my current game on an island group in which there are no large flightless mammals. There are only birds, including large flightless birds, that serve as mounts and resources.

 

However, even that relatively minor change means all sorts of changes that ripple through society and through the game. It means more work for me and for the players.

 

If you want a light-hearted game, then common magic is easy enough to do: you simply ignore the effect it is likely to have. If you want more immersion, you need a modicum of "realism". Now that can still be done - but it means far more work from the GM in designing a society because you can't realistically lift as much from historical settings.

 

That's part 1. Part 2 is the actual game experience. If magic is common, then actually designing and running games requires a great deal more skill on the part of the GM. If characters can fly, teleport long distances, talk to the dead, see through walls, etc, most conventional fantasy tropes won't work: that means the GM has to be more inventive and more flexible.

 

Again, that's doable: I ran a very fun game where essentially *every* character had very powerful magic powers. But it played very differently from most (actually, any) fantasy games I've seen and it took some of the players quite along time to settle down to it.

 

In short, if magic is less common, it makes running a game much, much, easier.

 

cheers, Mark

[Lemurion]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

As has been said before, common magic, especially common, powerful magic will transform a setting. Traditional medieval societies just can't function with it. The only way to make magic fit into a society without huge changes is to give it the same "cost" as doing it the normal way.

 

If it's just as hard to do something by magic as it is to do it by hand, magic no longer has quite the same power to transform society. It will still change it, but may not result in the same wholescale tranformation.

 

Making powerful magic rare also has the side effect of making PC casters that much more special.

 

In short, rare magic often makes for better games. Not always, but often enough that it's a good default.

[Hermit]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

I tend towards high fantasy, and sometimes enjoy playing with just HOW Magic changes things. For Example, In one setting I ran, ancient 'gates' that no longer worked were revealed to be the reason humanity had spread so fast in 'the last age'. When that secret was lost, the scattered peoples could no longer communicate, and became very different cultures with common roots. The PCs learned how to reactivate them, and suddenly those gates became grand prizes for high stakes coveted by kings.

[Curufea]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

I imagine a society with common magic would be similar to Perdido Street Station. Borderline anarchic and brutal because of the inherent chaos of magic. Government must be oppressive because the variables are so much nastier. Life would be a constant struggle against predatory magical creatures and all settlements would be fortified. Wandering monsters and all that.

[OddHat]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

My Atlantean campaign featured a classical Greece style society with a 19th century standard of living for the poor and an early 20th century standard of living for the rich within Atlantis. In other nations, the historical norms remained, though the occasional Atlantean artifact would allow one of the "mud people" to become a king. Magic was very much a form of technology from the atlantean point of view, and such slavery as was practiced was more for status and comfort purposes than actual labor value.

 

I should really dig through my old files and see if I can find the write up.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

Hey Kristopher.

 

Apriori Premise: I haven't read anyone else's response, so I can only answer this based on my own preferences. First, I'm used to the d20 High Magic design and it's frankly over done. Second, my settings tend to be dark & grittier. There's a certain amount of logic that has to come into play when you're dealing with High Magick. For example; commoners shouldn't be concerned when somone casts "light." They can be IMPRESSED, in that sort of "Hey, that was impressive" way, but not "frightened" (another over-done trope.)

 

I decided that I wanted Magick to be on par with the military. You know they're out there, but unless you're directly involved in their world, you don't really ever see the results. You don't see tanks rolling down the street, or people packing assault weapons in formation and body armor. If you did, you'd be impressed (and quite possibly look for cover).

 

If a 'normal person' sees magick being used in my setting - which is a low magic war-story - they're going to be justifiably nervous. It's like standing next to an angry black belt; they're highly trained, specialized and backed by the Empire. These are SCARY people, and should be given the appropriate amount of respect.

 

Further, learning magick and using it should be equally difficult. For me it's partially a handwave, since I built a rather complicated VPP in order to do it with a minor handwave, but that's because I was importing from d20. Were I to go back and redo that, I'd design the system entirely differently. But the objective was always to keep (and maintain) a low-magic environment.

[Cantriped]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

Hey Thai, Just from what you've said here, it might be worth it for you to try converting to what I set up Here It's not exactly the kind of High magic of DnD, but it works pretty well at keeping the effective price for wielding magic in line, especially when you start dealing with high end stuff that would otherwise cause problems.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

I, personally, am fond of 'wide magic', as it's been termed. Weak magic is omnipresent. Farmers may be able to use a spell to create water to irrigate the crops, a bartender may be able to throw a quick cantrip to clean his bartop faster, a blacksmith might use a small spell to enhance his skill. Everglowing lanterns light the city streets. More powerful magics are rare.

 

In a world with magic, it's completely infeasible to expect it to not affect sociological development. Yes, I'm going to give props to Eberron again. Magic has an affect on commerce, technology, sociology, warfare, everything. Magic is actually integrated into society.

 

Now, some people may be saying 'but doesn't that take away the magic'? The reason we view magic in such a romantic light in the real world is that WE DON'T HAVE ANY*, so we're inclined to try to make it this strange, abstracted, mystical thing. In a world where magic exists, is proven to exist, and is KNOWN to exist, it can, should, and must have an effect on the world's development to make any sense. IMNSHO. It would be like knowing electricity exists in the real world, yet none of us own anything electrically powered.

 

Besides, you have to admit, if magic *did* exist, we'd be spending constant energy, effort and money to figure out everything about it. Eventually, it would, effectively, be a science.

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Yeah, I know I'll probably get an argument on that one.

[Lemurion]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

I, personally, am fond of 'wide magic', as it's been termed. Weak magic is omnipresent. Farmers may be able to use a spell to create water to irrigate the crops, a bartender may be able to throw a quick cantrip to clean his bartop faster, a blacksmith might use a small spell to enhance his skill. Everglowing lanterns light the city streets. More powerful magics are rare.

 

In a world with magic, it's completely infeasible to expect it to not affect sociological development. Yes, I'm going to give props to Eberron again. Magic has an affect on commerce, technology, sociology, warfare, everything. Magic is actually integrated into society.

 

Now, some people may be saying 'but doesn't that take away the magic'? The reason we view magic in such a romantic light in the real world is that WE DON'T HAVE ANY*, so we're inclined to try to make it this strange, abstracted, mystical thing. In a world where magic exists, is proven to exist, and is KNOWN to exist, it can, should, and must have an effect on the world's development to make any sense. IMNSHO. It would be like knowing electricity exists in the real world, yet none of us own anything electrically powered.

 

Besides, you have to admit, if magic *did* exist, we'd be spending constant energy, effort and money to figure out everything about it. Eventually, it would, effectively, be a science.

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Yeah, I know I'll probably get an argument on that one.

 

Point the first: I'm not going to argue on that one. Because even for those who say there is real magic, it's very much not the same as the magic in games.

 

The "wide magic" is a good term, but some of those spells you mentioned are far from weak. I'd go so far as to say that some of them are a lot more powerful than the big flashy fireballs and the like. That irrigation spell (and the widespread crop magic) it implies would be a huge boon to the peasantry. It would essentially eliminate famine, and also trigger the migration to cities centuries earlier.

 

It's just one example of how far-reaching simple changes can be. While I'm not fond of the Eberron setting, I do agree that its recognition of the omnipresent changes magic would bring is a good thing.

 

In the end, it all comes back to the fact that the only way to really have magic be "magic" is to keep it rare. Otherwise it does become commonplace and loses the air that makes it magic. It becomes another form of technology.

 

The rarity and mystery is part of what makes it "magic."

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

The rarity and mystery is part of what makes it "magic."

 

I disagree (as I'm sure you've guessed). Magic is magic, whether it's commonplace and understood or enigmatic and rare. Whether or not it has an air of 'mysticism' is all that changes.

 

Let's take a random spell, say a globe of light.

One character may merely know that if he says the right words, makes the right gestures, and concentrates, he'll get a ball of light.

 

Another may realize that moving his right index finger along a horizontal vector with a two-inch 15 degree slant upwards at the end while saying the words 'Rezook Inagara' creates a vibration in the fabric of space-time that, when aligned with the latent mental energy gathered in his cerebrum via concentration, invokes a mana shift resulting in a momentary portal to the Luminous Plane.

 

Either way, they're casting a spell that's making a ball of light.

 

Modern analogy: Driving a car.

A mechanic knows precisely how the engine works. Pistons, fuel flow, the entire mechanism that makes it work.

A layman knows that you turn the key and it goes.

Either way, they're driving a car.

 

For that matter, in any world where magic can be written in books, taught in schools and learned, doesn't that mean, by definition, that it's fully understood?

[Cantriped]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

Not necessarially, what mages know (or think they know) can be frought with superstitions, or as in some systems it could be something that has none of the common DnD-esk conotations of wizardry. Sure, people have learned to wield it, but they have a very limited understanding of what it's actually doing or why it does it.

[Lemurion]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

I disagree (as I'm sure you've guessed). Magic is magic, whether it's commonplace and understood or enigmatic and rare. Whether or not it has an air of 'mysticism' is all that changes.

 

Let's take a random spell, say a globe of light.

One character may merely know that if he says the right words, makes the right gestures, and concentrates, he'll get a ball of light.

 

Another may realize that moving his right index finger along a horizontal vector with a two-inch 15 degree slant upwards at the end while saying the words 'Rezook Inagara' creates a vibration in the fabric of space-time that, when aligned with the latent mental energy gathered in his cerebrum via concentration, invokes a mana shift resulting in a momentary portal to the Luminous Plane.

 

Either way, they're casting a spell that's making a ball of light.

 

Modern analogy: Driving a car.

A mechanic knows precisely how the engine works. Pistons, fuel flow, the entire mechanism that makes it work.

A layman knows that you turn the key and it goes.

Either way, they're driving a car.

 

For that matter, in any world where magic can be written in books, taught in schools and learned, doesn't that mean, by definition, that it's fully understood?

 

I may not have been clear enough with the quotes.

 

When I said that's what makes it "magic," I meant that's what gives it the feeling that it's something qualitatively different than just another form of technology. Following your example, a light is a light, whether generated by an incandescent light bulb bearing the name "Westinghouse" or a rune-marked crystal sphere encasing a fire spirit. They're both lights, and a character would use either one the same way. It doesn't matter how they're generated, or what the character understands about their generation.

 

Common magic, or "wide magic" would as you say end up being treated just like technology. After all an incantation is no different really than voicedial on your cell phone or any other voice-command technology. It's flavor is matter-of-fact, and in that sort of a campaign setting is just part of the background.

 

The problem I have with this is that while it's still magic, it doesn't feel "magic." It feels just like technology. Now that may be exactly what you want, but for me a big part of the attraction of magic is that it lends a different tone than technology. Ubiquitous magic, especially in HERO, often lacks that tone.

 

That's why I say it's not "magic," and why the quotation marks were there. Perhaps I should have phrased it as being magic, but not magical.

[JackValhalla]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

My approach is to take a little from Column A, and a little from Column B. I broke magic into 2 schools for my fantasy game. One kind is low-power but easy and omnipresent, and there are authorities that understand it pretty fully, like modern humans know about the theoretical background of electrical conduction and the way that generators work. (sit down with a four-year-old if you ever want to learn how much you don't know about science.) I used this kind of magic to bring the population of the fantasy world into an environment not too dissimilar from our own. There are lights at night, people can communicate vast distances, and many nations have no fear of mass famine or plague. At the same time, this has not solved world hunger, nor has it eliminated disease and poverty. There are still criminal elements and public corruption. Most people know a spell or two. Large cities are possible, and there are individuals of fabulous wealth and influence.

I did that because I'd gotten tired of dirty, barbarous "realistic" fantasy settings. I wanted the world to be more hygenic and more versatile.

At the same time, there is another school of magic that most people frankly don't have the potential for. This second school is dangerous to learn, difficult to practice, and it gives the regular folk the willies. It is mostly used in the service of governments at the city or national level.

So, I have a "lightbulb" magic, and a "nuclear" magic. The combination works well.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

(sit down with a four-year-old if you ever want to learn how much you don't know about science.)

 

What do the four-year-olds know that they're not sharing?

 

 

In my seemingly-never-to-be-finished game world, magic is fairly widespread, with at least one or two people in a good sized village knowing a little about it. There's a lot of superstition about it though, and most can't just apply their knowledge in unconventional ways to come up with a new spell. Those who can have made a more scientific study of it.

 

I could post a link to a thread about how I've set this up, but I'd have to find it first, and I have to leave for work now. At any rate, the link doesn't deal with the rarity of it at all, so it's probably just as well.

[JackValhalla]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

What do the four-year-olds know that they're not sharing?

 

Nothing much... they just keep asking "Why?"

 

"So, you see, the electrons move down the wire by displacing the next electron in line, sending it further down the wire, where it displaces the next one after it..."

"Why do they only travel in one direction? Can't they go backwards?"

"Oh, s***... I don't know."

 

And this after almost an hour with diagrams. I hate dealing with kids who aren't afraid to ask dumb questions of grownups. Somewhere along the way, they get embarassed to admit what they don't know, and then I can handle them.

Least it wasn't any kid of mine...

[Seenar]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

One big annoying point for me is when barbarians or primatives have all sorts of magic. If they got so much magic, how come they live in huts? In my games, advanced magic goes with advanced civilization.

 

I tend to have a higher standard of living, population density than possible without magic. There are lots of wizards, but not everyone can cast spells. Wizards tend to live very well, commanding the big silver (or gold) to improve society. Espically Water Mages in cities.

 

It is the old "Hey, I cast Continual light on street lamps for prrofit" argument.

 

In my Kith Dalton universe, the King of Kith Dalton is supported by a magic sword. It forces him, and the ruling council to stay true servants of the nation and the people. Magic makes for better rulers.

[Cantriped]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

Magic can also lead to corruption, as shown in Elvenbane, where the Elven Lords had so throughly enslaved humans that they've lost any notion or knowledge predating Elven ocupation.

Of course this situation was largely caused because Humans lacked the evocative magics possessed by the Elves, instead having psionics. If power had been more evenly distributed then perhaps humans would have have been so easily subjacated.