The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

Flesh Gordon - Tons of luck' date=' luck based defenses, semi-brick, regeneration, ressurection. Throwing him into a pool of molten metal or a star would work best, and even then an observer would have to make absolutely sure he went in.[/quote']

Then you need to get a fantically loyal (to the bad guy) beautiful woman willing to lure him into a situation where he falls into the molten metal (or whatever) and she goes in with him, ensuring his demise.

[Kevin Schultz]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

"Use a 1 hex area effect attack 12 DC above the campaign maximum from surprise, with invisibility to all senses possessed by the character, including Danger Sense if applicable."

 

Seems pretty much universally workable to me.

 

"Pull back and nuke the character from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."

 

The question would probably be better restricted to "A plan set up by a batman-style character with incredible wealth, access to science/technology gadgets, excellent martial artists, and superior investigative skills, but who is restricted by the limits in your campaign."

 

EDIT - "And who is making a reasonable attempt to avoid collateral damage."

[Koshka]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

Falcon is a gadgeteer/martial artist crossover. If we're using Kevin's rewrite of the question, the easiest way to take her out is to find out her Secret ID (wealthy heiress) and hit a charity event she's attending. She doesn't have armored ballgowns, and wouldn't have her weapons in her purse. Just be sure you drop her first, she's no speedster but she's faster than the average thug, and she would have at least a basic kit in the car.

 

She's also my GM-PC, and the closest thing that group has to a Batman type ... so if it were genre-appropriate for her to work up her own protocols, what would she do about the rest of the team?

 

We've got two bricks, Justice and Cat. Cat is more of an agile brick, so we're looking at area of effect attacks to drop her. OTOH, Cat's not the brightest team member -- she pulled a noncombat-speed movethrough in the first adventure, missed her target, didn't miss the spaceship her target was standing in front of, and KOed herself. Falcon's not a psychologist, but if she wanted to take Cat down trying to set Cat up for another stunt like that would be plausible. Justice doesn't have any notable weaknesses, and is probably too smart to set up like that, but the guy's gotta eat -- NND knockout drugs in his coffee.

 

Singing Cowboy has some martial arts training, but most of his powers are through his guitar. Spend the bucks for a high quality lookalike guitar, switch them while he's asleep. (Actually, all you'd need to replace are the crystalline guitar strings, but no one would know that.) Then just send a large number of thugs with Teamwork after him. His normal response would be to strum out an area of effect attack, which would fail, and while he's trying to figure out what's going on the thugs can knock him out. Even if only half of them make their Teamwork rolls, that should be enough for a KO.

 

Warder is a true mystic, but otherwise he's a normal human. Same basic tactics as for Falcon -- break secret ID and attack when character is maintaining it.

 

Madame Mystique was originally billed as a mystic, but is more of a mentalist. Surprise is your friend here; I have to keep reminding her player that rampant paranoia is out of genre for Golden Age, given any reason to think an attack is coming she would start burrowing through every mind in the area to find out what's going down. The character has No Conscious Control precognition, if you're worried about that going off and warning Madame Mystique then (assuming Batman levels of cash) hire lots of thugs to cause as much damage and chaos as possible in as short a time as possible. Her precog is mainly a "danger coming" type of power, overload it and any warning it might give should be lost among the warnings of power plant explosions and bombs at the docks.

[Powerhouse]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

Interesting premise, but...

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Powerhouse

Solution: sniper shot when she is unaware.

 

 

Doesn't this describe basically everyone? There are a few people who are immuned to sniper shots to the head, but not a lot. Most supers have some sort of defense or power that needs to be activated. Whether it's super speed, active dodging, FF or similar, or donning power armor, if you can catch them unaware, then you've got them.

 

That, and "use a bigger gun." Most FF and power armor defenses are prone to just plaing being over-whelmed. Speedsters, sneakers and dodge artists don't have this problem.

 

Admittedly, the above can be apply to many, just as the nuke can. I guess it depensd on what limits you have on your resources. Sniping Tyr, Titan, and Starguard wouldn't be recommended since most enemies don't have access to a sniper rifle powerful enough to guarantee a knockout.

 

Lady Silver is a little difference since she doesn't have a ton of persistent defenses except her invisible shields that she uses as a default when she isn't in combat. Awareness of this fact though would allow for an appropriate weapon to be selected. Witchunter (from Arcane Enemies) sniped her once without realizing that she had those shields. As a result she was critically wounded but NOT killed and was thus able to recover with some mystical help. With the Champion Protocols, it's known that she does have those skills and thus a more powerful bullet is needed, along with the need to not assume that she's dead.

 

That said, I guess a little creativity would be nice. She does use gestures and incantations for her variable limits so I guess something that interfered with that would be a nice idea. I'll do some thinking.

[Egyptoid]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

They have a Black-Ray gun dessigned for White Knite .

Light Suppression and Darkforce can totally sever his power-link,

and the side effects on the link also would drive him unconscious.

 

 

 

They have a Hospitaller Crossbow and a Templar Sword squirrelled away somewhere

to take out Cosmo Knite.

And if those holy relics don't zap him quickly enough,

they have a telekinetic gal who can slosh gallons of candle wax

onto him (works like a charm provided they're blessed and lit in church candles)

[Duke Bushido]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

The question would probably be better restricted to "A plan set up by a batman-style character with incredible wealth, access to science/technology gadgets, excellent martial artists, and superior investigative skills, but who is restricted by the limits in your campaign."

 

 

Someone else alluded to this as well earlier in the thread-- Commenting on the idea that, if I may paraphrase, the 'feel' of these protocols in the game vs the feel in the comics is different because of the 'story' vs the 'mechanics' approach, ie, "while 'use a mentalist' works great in the game, Batman doesn't have access to one,' etc.

 

I submit that wealth itself, in the game, is merely a special effect. You don't _need_ wealth to be gadget hero in the game, but you can have it if you want. It's the special effect of where your gadgets came from.

 

And really, once you allow a tech or wealth level that comes up with the gadgets found in comic books, there's really no justification (beyond "WESAYSO!") for disallowing an amount of wealth that buys a key fob that grants the wielder vast mental powers (within the limits of the campaign, of course), or anything else.

 

I know it's cliche', but really-- technology _is_ magic at a point-- and that point seems to be the level found in comic books.

 

So, while I admit that I am suprised at the number of characters who's only possible 'leash' is 'sniper attack' or 'tactical nuke,' and while I freely admit that such tactics are not particularly 'heroic,' I don't see using 'gadget/wealth SFX necessarily _precluding_ big bomb/big gun/hordes of ninjas; I actually see it making such tactics _easier_ to justify.......

 

 

 

Sorry; I didn't mean to threadjack.

 

To get back on track, I offer another supers character:

Iron Max: the right combination of senses or Detects will reveal that she is constantly in communication with her 'team;' the students who designed, built, and maintain her powered armor, as well as monitor several of its systems (it is not as advanced as the typical 'armour hero' in comics).

 

Triangulation on that signal would lead an opponent directly to her most vulnerable point, in several shades of the word.

 

Barring that, wait her out. Most everything on the suit runs on an END Res. It was intended to run up to 2 hours without too much difficulty, but can be depleted in less than an hour if there is a lot of combat or power usage. It will not run more than four hours regardless of power drain, and it must be recharged to rebuild END, at roughly six hours charge time per hour of usage. If run completely 'flat,' the batteries will have to be reconditioned before they will take a charge. This time involved is entirely up to the GM, and has never been less than two days, and has been over a week.

[Kevin Schultz]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

 

I submit that wealth itself, in the game, is merely a special effect. You don't _need_ wealth to be gadget hero in the game, but you can have it if you want. It's the special effect of where your gadgets came from.

 

....

 

I know it's cliche', but really-- technology _is_ magic at a point-- and that point seems to be the level found in comic books.

 

Yeah, but not really Batman-level of tech - although he's got some snazzy computers and a really cool car, most of his stuff seems to be "cinematic cutting edge", rather than "Star Trek Superscience".

[OddHat]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

So, while I admit that I am suprised at the number of characters who's only possible 'leash' is 'sniper attack' or 'tactical nuke,'

 

I don't find that surprising. Many characters in comics, especially at the JLA level, can only be taken out with conventional force if attacked by surprise or with the use of the most powerful real world weapons. The "my one weakness" crowd is thinner these days than it used to be, and even then I don't find a Kryptonite Bullet less of a stretch than a surprise attack using some other method.

 

As GMs we can always take out the player characters by killing them all in their sleep. Of course, the game's not likely to last long after that.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

WRT the whole debate about snipers:

 

They miss the point, don't they? The point of such Protocols is to be able to defeat the Hero in question _if they become a villain_. As such, expecting to catch them offguard is doomed to failure - they're likely to have minions, or a mind controlling "ally", or what not, and may never go back to their Secret ID ever again.

[OddHat]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

WRT the whole debate about snipers:

 

They miss the point, don't they? The point of such Protocols is to be able to defeat the Hero in question _if they become a villain_. As such, expecting to catch them offguard is doomed to failure - they're likely to have minions, or a mind controlling "ally", or what not, and may never go back to their Secret ID ever again.

 

Snipers work fine against villains. You just need to either know where they go when out of costume or how to bait a trap. Of course, they could suddenly lose all human feeling so that baiting a trap becomes impossible. At that point, with the Captain Marvel types, you're back to nukes and other forms of vastly overwhelming force. As you go more towards the "normal in suit" end of the spectrum the amount of force can be toned down.

[prodigyduck]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

American Eagle: Easily taken down with some nearby Element N. Magical is also particularly effective against him. While he is near-invulnerable to physical damage, he is only about 1/2 as effective against energy attacks. Zap him hard enough, and he'll go down.

 

Requiem/Goblyn: Super-physical training and photographic reflexes. He will have to be taken out when asleep or at range. Of course, he is also easily distracted by the ladies.

 

Bastion: Colossus-type. He still needs to breathe, so any gas attacks will work against him.

 

Taboo: Cold Iron will sail right through any magical defenses she has (regular iron isn't good enough, and it's not like cold iron is a common material).

[freakboy6117]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

it depends how you define cold iron if it is merely wrought iron hammered into shape without heating then it's fairly common and easy to aquire if its made from meteoric iron to avoid the smelting process then much rarer.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

WRT the whole debate about snipers:

 

They miss the point, don't they? The point of such Protocols is to be able to defeat the Hero in question _if they become a villain_. As such, expecting to catch them offguard is doomed to failure - they're likely to have minions, or a mind controlling "ally", or what not, and may never go back to their Secret ID ever again.

 

 

I think the other aspect is that we're appproaching this from the Gamers' Perspective. Find the quickest, most straightforward and most effective means of taking down the character in question.

 

We're not approaching it from the dramatic storytelling perspective, which would require the method approaching be inobvious and creative and pose an interesting dilemma for the character in question.

 

For example, it's noteworthy that the Batman Protocol solution to Superman doesn't just shoot him with a green K bullet (which would presumably have been far easier than synthesizing the special red K which turned his skin transparent). Flash is shot with a bullet that induces epileptic seizures. Why not a bullet that poisons him with cyanide? Why aquaphobia for Aquaman? A high power rifle would kill him off just as effectively, and considerably faster.

[OddHat]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

I think the other aspect is that we're appproaching this from the Gamers' Perspective. Find the quickest, most straightforward and most effective means of taking down the character in question.

 

We're not approaching it from the dramatic storytelling perspective, which would require the method approaching be inobvious and creative and pose an interesting dilemma for the character in question.

 

For example, it's noteworthy that the Batman Protocol solution to Superman doesn't just shoot him with a green K bullet (which would presumably have been far easier than synthesizing the special red K which turned his skin transparent). Flash is shot with a bullet that induces epileptic seizures. Why not a bullet that poisons him with cyanide? Why aquaphobia for Aquaman? A high power rifle would kill him off just as effectively, and considerably faster.

 

Maybe Batman's player was an angry teen without much tactical sense. It would also explain why he played Batman as such an *******.

[Blue]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

Anthem has trouble with high-STR opponents and massive entangles. She has no special life support so NNDs often get through. Someone with really high DEF could probably ignore her all day until she's out of END.

 

Uncle Slam has the least vulnerabilities of any character I've ever played or run. Experience points have been kind to him. His only weekness is the same for all my characters: Their unwilingness to sacrifice bystanders and civilians. He can be manipulated through strategic use of hostages. But there's no specific weakness he has that can be exploited; You've just got to beat him straight up.

 

Audra Blue has a serious (possibly lethal) vulnerability to electricity, as she's got a number of cybernetics it interferes with and impairs.

[OddHat]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

I think the other aspect is that we're appproaching this from the Gamers' Perspective. Find the quickest, most straightforward and most effective means of taking down the character in question.

 

We're not approaching it from the dramatic storytelling perspective, which would require the method approaching be inobvious and creative and pose an interesting dilemma for the character in question.

 

I should point out that, flipant answers aside, I agree with this. Specific, overly complex protocols to deal with Supers fall on the story rather than mechanics side of a campaign, especially in most Champions campaigns.

 

However, I still think that those plans by Bats made no sense whatsoever.

[Dreadnought]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

Dreadnought: Just give him a good shock to deal with him. It won't kill him, but electricity can bring him down pretty quickly.

[Powerhouse]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

I think the other aspect is that we're appproaching this from the Gamers' Perspective. Find the quickest, most straightforward and most effective means of taking down the character in question.

 

We're not approaching it from the dramatic storytelling perspective, which would require the method approaching be inobvious and creative and pose an interesting dilemma for the character in question.

 

For example, it's noteworthy that the Batman Protocol solution to Superman doesn't just shoot him with a green K bullet (which would presumably have been far easier than synthesizing the special red K which turned his skin transparent). Flash is shot with a bullet that induces epileptic seizures. Why not a bullet that poisons him with cyanide? Why aquaphobia for Aquaman? A high power rifle would kill him off just as effectively, and considerably faster.

 

Solid comments as well as those that noted that some of the protocols seem more geared to a character who hasn't gone bad (like lady Silver appearing at a public event). I guess I'm a bit to blame since I'm being vague between what's develop to take down a character gone bad as opposed to what's perverted to take down a hero.

 

And yes, Batman had some clever ideas but not all seemed rather practical... maybe I'll try to come up with some stuff that's more dramatic and theatrical.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

Maybe Batman's player was an angry teen without much tactical sense. It would also explain why he played Batman as such an *******.

 

Agreed!

 

Though Mr Neilson makes some excellent points about a 'story perspective.'

 

(Oh, Oddhat: I recall that "Batmunch" is simultaneously appropriate and ignored by the censor software )

 

And I was well-taught by the comments on power-levels as well. As there aren't many supers players in this area, I tend to forget that our group plays lower power levels than are generally favored. And as we don't use much of anything from 5e, I personally forgot just how far up power levels can go.

 

I suppose a lot of that is probably my fault, as the main GM for over a dozen years now, I am sure I had a lot to do with the tendency to introduce new players to the ideas of lower power levels, as I tend to prefer them from a character/story-oriented point of view.

 

I've mentioned before that I didn't read a lot of comics as a kid, not even enough to know more than a dozen characters or so, really. But I remember describing to an adult the exploits of bravery that Superman demonstrated in a comic I read, and I remember that person telling me (no, I don't remember who it was; just what they said) "Sure. It's easy to be brave when you're bullet-proof."

 

That idea, I think, did a lot to shape my interpretations of what "heroic" meant, even when preceded with 'super.'

 

And I appologize to everyone for my commentary on wealth/high-tech as special effect; I am not familiar enough, it seems, with Batmunch to have fully understood what his tech limits were.

 

My bad.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

(Oh' date=' Oddhat: I recall that "Batmunch" is simultaneously appropriate and ignored by the censor software )[/quote']

Just FYI, the censorware has been turned off, so we have to watch our own typing again.

[TheRavenIs]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

I won't answer about any of my C's, past or present. I dislike the whole idea of 'Protocols' to take out C's. Now have I had a C do it.....yes. The C's in question had major trust problems or was themselves targets of other PC's working out ways to take them down. Even then it was in the years after I first started playing.

 

Now, I see it this way if a C has to be taken down it will happen and the GM, either me if it's my game-or the others in our group that run's, job to set it up.

[gojira]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

Admittedly' date=' the above can be apply to many, just as the nuke can. I guess it depensd on what limits you have on your resources. Sniping Tyr, Titan, and Starguard wouldn't be recommended since most enemies don't have access to a sniper rifle powerful enough to guarantee a knockout.[/quote']

 

I'm just curious. Get one of these babies. Assume it does 3d6 RKA base damage. Put Armor Peircing rounds in it (yes, they make them). Would a sniper shot to the head work now? What's the head multiplier, x8? Seems like it should...

 

That said, I guess a little creativity would be nice. She does use gestures and incantations for her variable limits so I guess something that interfered with that would be a nice idea. I'll do some thinking.

 

I was thinking of my main character, who is a power suit user. His defenses are Hardended, but a double AP, or AP + Pen, attack is going to cause him lots of worries, esp if it's in the 3d6+ RKA range. This isn't very creative, but he's not got much except his high rDef. Take that away (Find Weekness is another "Run away!" power), and he doesn't have much to fall back on.

 

A metalist would certainly work against him. His INT is high but his EGO is 13 and I purposely left him without Mental Defense. To be creative, maybe a mental suggestion (Mind Control?) that leaves his Inventing ability ruined, and makes him go gaga or build crazy useless stuff in his lab.

 

That and catch him out of armor.

[gojira]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

Oh yes, don't forget:

 

Frog, 3d6 Transform, Person in to frog (reversed when kissed by a princess)

 

That'll take most superheroes out, too. (Although my guy tends to have straight up Power Defense. Hmm...)

[Twilight]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

For example, it's noteworthy that the Batman Protocol solution to Superman doesn't just shoot him with a green K bullet (which would presumably have been far easier than synthesizing the special red K which turned his skin transparent). Flash is shot with a bullet that induces epileptic seizures. Why not a bullet that poisons him with cyanide? Why aquaphobia for Aquaman? A high power rifle would kill him off just as effectively, and considerably faster.

 

The bullet that poisons him with cyanide would be less effective against Flash because, unless I'm mistaken, his superspeed would burn the poison out of his system before it had a chance to effect him. I'm more wondering why Bats used a bullet at all since it would move far to slow to reliably hit Flash.

 

The only reason I could think of to use the special Red K rather then the standard Green K would be because Superman isn't expecting it. Given Superman's supersenses and skills as a reporter it's reasonable for Bats to assume Superman could figure out that Bats is after him, should it come to pass. Green K bullet pings off a lead protective suit rather harmlessly after all. Of course, the special red K probably can't penetrate lead either so that reasoning probably falls apart there too.

 

As for the aquaphobia, well ok here Bats is just being a bitch. Let's face it this is just plain mean. Apparently though, his hatred of guns extends to situations that cause him to eliminate the League.

 

That's all I got.

[Powerhouse]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

I'm just curious. Get one of these babies. Assume it does 3d6 RKA base damage. Put Armor Peircing rounds in it (yes, they make them). Would a sniper shot to the head work now? What's the head multiplier, x8? Seems like it should...

 

In most superheroic rules, isn't the location mutlipliers ignored? Anyway, I would argue story telling vs rules here. When I say Tyr, Starknight, and Titan think Thor, an armored Green Lantern, and Iron Man. Although what you noted is a powerful weapon, I don't see it, at least in most comic books, taking down the above. Ok, maybe Thor but how bullet proof he is people always argue.