The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

[jkwleisemann]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

Personally... I think that the argument/criticism that we're thinking like gamers is not necessarily accurate.

 

Now, granted, we're tending to shoot for a "game solution" - hit them with things that do extra damage, catch them in situations where they don't have their cool gear, etc. rather than, say, the cunning trap that can be pulled off with sufficient preparation that catches them unawares.

 

But personally? Occam's Razor applies big time here. An overly complicated plan is the mark of an inferior tactical mind.

 

*Especially* if you're trying to take down a friend of yours who has gone rogue, you want a plan with the fewest points of failure.

 

Let's take my character, Void, for example.

 

Comic book strategy to take him down: Confront him, and throw enough energy at him that he overabsorbs and goes into shock. Primary points of failure: He might not be able to 'overabsorb' in the way you've suggested, and he might actually get stronger because of what you've done to him. Now, if you're the hero of the comic book, of course this strategy will work - it's fun, cool, and makes your character look oh so clever.

 

But it has those two glaring points of failure, and it may well have more in the plan (like the fact that he might simply kick your gluteous half way to the hospital before you're done).

 

Tactician's strategy: If he still uses Dominic DuBey's ID to support his lifestyle - virtually required - that means he has to go out in public and be vulnerable. Snipe him while he's in Dominic's ID; even if he hires extra bodyguards, there's little they can do to stop a Barret Light .50 from half a mile away. Primary point of failure: The sniper misses. There is also a point of failure that he might be Void full time, but the strategy still works in that case, it's just not as easy.

 

Which is the superior tactic? From the comic book perspective, the first one. From the tactical perspective, the second. Now, if you're afraid that your ex-good-buddy is going to, say, kill people? I'd say that if you're wasting your time on the first perspective, you're taking a *lot* of chances with people's lives.

[OddHat]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

But I remember describing to an adult the exploits of bravery that Superman demonstrated in a comic I read' date=' and I remember that person telling me (no, I don't remember who it was; just what they said) "Sure. It's easy to be brave when you're bullet-proof."[/quote']

 

I always thought of this as the classic grumpy old fart's reaction to Superman, and to heroic fiction. Not directed at you, but Supes is challenged to the far limits of his ability, and ultimately triumphs. Batman is challenged to his limits, and ultimately triumphs. Their stories are not intended to be explorations of failure. A knee jerk rejection of the value of fantasy shows a limited understanding of the human mind works.

 

Minor Rant Warning:

 

And from a fan boy point of view, Supes gets smacked around and nearly killed constantly. He uses his power to protect the weak, and for the good of the world, rather than using that power for personal gain. He saves lives daily, and the number of lives he has saved is in the billions. If that doesn't qualify him as a hero, then what standards are we talking about here?

[JackValhalla]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

The team in the game I'm running, the Superiors, would be taken down in one of two ways.

1: Seperate them.

2: Send Dr. Destroyer.

When they're working as a unit, they are hella effective. They were part of an experiment on my part, one that worked only too well. So, if they decided to go rogue, and I had to have them taken down, the first thing to do is seperate them from one another, and then take them down individually.

Saurin - Find him and electrocute him. Standard high-voltage line should do the trick. He's pretty distinctive, and none too maneuverable, so you don't need a complex plan if he's alone.

Silk - Arrange a robbery, lure him into confined spaces. Ordinary agents with IR goggles and standard weaponry for the takedown, but make sure that they are carrying something to get out of webbing. Aerosol acid spray, fire, something.

Slipstream - Make some overtures of force, something to make him feel threatened. When he pops a wormhole to escape, lob a gas grenade and a GPS transmitter after him. Trace the GPS signal to his new location, and get him before he wakes up. There's almost no way to contain or restrain him, you may have to keep him drugged or mind-controlled.

Sparrow - Catch him indoors where the birds can't warn him, and then shoot him in the head. Twice. Then tie him up and fasten him to something heavy before he returns to life. He can be lured into nearly any trap if he thinks necromancy is involved.

Steelwasp - Don't try electricity or magnets, just tap into her radio linked computer and insert a computer virus. You can find her frequency using a police scanner, just hook a modem up and let a fifteen-year-old script kiddie take her down. It shouldn't take more than a few minutes to pull her out of the suit and handcuff her.

Synapse - Even a small EMP will knock him unconscious, for at least a couple minutes. Cover his head with a good insulator tightly fitted, and his powers are useless.

[David Johnston]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

Tactician's strategy: If he still uses Dominic DuBey's ID to support his lifestyle - virtually required - that means he has to go out in public and be vulnerable. Snipe him while he's in Dominic's ID; even if he hires extra bodyguards, there's little they can do to stop a Barret Light .50 from half a mile away. Primary point of failure: The sniper misses. There is also a point of failure that he might be Void full time, but the strategy still works in that case, it's just not as easy.

 

Which is the superior tactic? From the comic book perspective, the first one. From the tactical perspective, the second.

 

If you're going after him. But if he's coming after you, you need a different plan. It's bad tactics to assume your enemy doesn't know you're his enemy.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

Snipers work fine against villains. You just need to either know where they go when out of costume or how to bait a trap. Of course' date=' they could suddenly lose all human feeling so that baiting a trap becomes impossible. At that point, with the Captain Marvel types, you're back to nukes and other forms of vastly overwhelming force. As you go more towards the "normal in suit" end of the spectrum the amount of force can be toned down.[/quote']

 

It seems odd that the only villain that would get taken out by a hero commanded sniper would be a rogue hero...

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

Personally... I think that the argument/criticism that we're thinking like gamers is not necessarily accurate.

 

Now, granted, we're tending to shoot for a "game solution" - hit them with things that do extra damage, catch them in situations where they don't have their cool gear, etc. rather than, say, the cunning trap that can be pulled off with sufficient preparation that catches them unawares.

 

But personally? Occam's Razor applies big time here. An overly complicated plan is the mark of an inferior tactical mind.

 

*Especially* if you're trying to take down a friend of yours who has gone rogue, you want a plan with the fewest points of failure.

 

Let's take my character, Void, for example.

 

Comic book strategy to take him down: Confront him, and throw enough energy at him that he overabsorbs and goes into shock. Primary points of failure: He might not be able to 'overabsorb' in the way you've suggested, and he might actually get stronger because of what you've done to him. Now, if you're the hero of the comic book, of course this strategy will work - it's fun, cool, and makes your character look oh so clever.

 

But it has those two glaring points of failure, and it may well have more in the plan (like the fact that he might simply kick your gluteous half way to the hospital before you're done).

 

Tactician's strategy: If he still uses Dominic DuBey's ID to support his lifestyle - virtually required - that means he has to go out in public and be vulnerable. Snipe him while he's in Dominic's ID; even if he hires extra bodyguards, there's little they can do to stop a Barret Light .50 from half a mile away. Primary point of failure: The sniper misses. There is also a point of failure that he might be Void full time, but the strategy still works in that case, it's just not as easy.

 

Which is the superior tactic? From the comic book perspective, the first one. From the tactical perspective, the second. Now, if you're afraid that your ex-good-buddy is going to, say, kill people? I'd say that if you're wasting your time on the first perspective, you're taking a *lot* of chances with people's lives.

 

There's a hell of a lot wrong with a superbeing who can realistically be taken out by a sniper.

 

Namely... why hasn't it been done yet?

 

 

In short, if you're being realistic, then there should be no active superbeings who aren't basically immune to such tactics - because everyone else is dead.

 

 

 

Void must leave behind a heck of a body count...

[David Blue]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

There's a hell of a lot wrong with a superbeing who can realistically be taken out by a sniper.

 

Namely... why hasn't it been done yet?

 

 

In short, if you're being realistic, then there should be no active superbeings who aren't basically immune to such tactics - because everyone else is dead.

This my perspective also.

[OddHat]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

It seems odd that the only villain that would get taken out by a hero commanded sniper would be a rogue hero...

 

Yes, that's the "protocols" story arc for you. No effective plans to wipe out the bad guys, detailed and highly effective plans for wiping out your friends.

 

That said, once you learn the villains secret ID, you can snipe him as well. Your campaign would have to be Iron Age and amoral enough for your GM to permit it, but it works. The real world is full of criminals who could be killed by snipers, but aren't.

[Twilight]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

Yes' date=' that's the "protocols" story arc for you. No effective plans to wipe out the bad guys, detailed and highly effective plans for wiping out your friends.[/quote']

 

That's why most real comic fans couldn't stand it. The others just sorta went: "OMG Mark Waid! Classic story!" Then they drooled like Pavlovian dogs.

 

Sorry, I have issues with that story and many other Mark Waid stories I've read.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

If you're going after him. But if he's coming after you' date=' you need a different plan. It's bad tactics to assume your enemy doesn't know you're his enemy.[/quote']

Granted. Of course, if he's coming after you, you probably also don't have time to go fetch Random Gadget #36 that you designed specially to take the hero down, so....

 

As for there being problems with heros who can realistically be taken down with a sniper, and the fact that it should have happened to all of them that it was possible with... not everybody's bulletproof. And for those who are, there's a big difference between "bounces 9 mm rounds from a handgun" and "bounces .50 cal AP sniper rounds."

 

I also wasn't saying that was the tactic that would work for all of them; I was saying it was a tactic that would work for Void, who is basically Batman as a minor mutant with the ability to absorb (non-kinetic) energy. When out of costume, he can be dropped almost as easily as anybody else, as long as you're not using bombs or blasters.

 

Against your typical brick, it probably wouldn't work, and would just tick them off at worst. Against an Iron Man sort, it probably wouldn't work.

 

My primary point was, ultimately, that it's not necessarily a 'bad thing' that most of the answers we've gotten have broken down into very simple, straight-forward plans that didn't rely on contingencies you couldn't put into work without special gear you won't necessarily have. That they instead relied on focused, vindictive application of a handful of major psych lims and every vulnerability or susceptibility they have. That's not really a bad thing, because frankly that's the best, most reliable plan there is. Relying on an obscure tactic that *might* work is less effective than relying on an obvious tactic that will, and probably has before, if to a lesser degree.

 

And actually, Void doesn't leave much of a body count. He's capable of it, but his Secret ID's personality won't let him at this point.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

There's a hell of a lot wrong with a superbeing who can realistically be taken out by a sniper.

 

Namely... why hasn't it been done yet?

For the same exact reason that Goldfinger strapped Bond to a table with a laser poised to cut him in half, rather than simply putting a bullet through his head.

 

Genre conventions strike back, forcefully, at those who use their brains instead of simply going with the flow.

 

And I have to agree about the fact that it's only lined up against rogue heroes. Every team out there should have at least one "take them down hard" contingency for every major villain they face, set up for the team from the one person taking them on level all the way up to the 'we have the whole group available' level.

 

But let's face it - a comic book where Batman glances at the villains present, and says "okay team - Luthor Alpha-5, Solomon Grundy Zeta-3, and Cheetah Espilon contingency" then the entire team goes into a well-rehearsed set of contingencies that wipes out the villains with minimal risk or drama in 2 pages would be rather dull.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

 

My primary point was, ultimately, that it's not necessarily a 'bad thing' that most of the answers we've gotten have broken down into very simple, straight-forward plans that didn't rely on contingencies you couldn't put into work without special gear you won't necessarily have. That they instead relied on focused, vindictive application of a handful of major psych lims and every vulnerability or susceptibility they have. That's not really a bad thing, because frankly that's the best, most reliable plan there is. Relying on an obscure tactic that *might* work is less effective than relying on an obvious tactic that will, and probably has before, if to a lesser degree.

 

 

 

Well said!

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

For the same exact reason that Goldfinger strapped Bond to a table with a laser poised to cut him in half, rather than simply putting a bullet through his head.

 

Genre conventions strike back, forcefully, at those who use their brains instead of simply going with the flow.

 

And I have to agree about the fact that it's only lined up against rogue heroes. Every team out there should have at least one "take them down hard" contingency for every major villain they face, set up for the team from the one person taking them on level all the way up to the 'we have the whole group available' level.

 

But let's face it - a comic book where Batman glances at the villains present, and says "okay team - Luthor Alpha-5, Solomon Grundy Zeta-3, and Cheetah Espilon contingency" then the entire team goes into a well-rehearsed set of contingencies that wipes out the villains with minimal risk or drama in 2 pages would be rather dull.

 

Exactly. Genre. Answers should be genre appropriate. Snipers at 100 paces? Not any part of the genre I'm used.

[OddHat]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

Exactly. Genre. Answers should be genre appropriate. Snipers at 100 paces? Not any part of the genre I'm used.

 

I'd say that the whole "protocols" idea reflected the problem that DC has had in the last few years of figuring out exactly what genre they're writing in. It's an Iron Age concept (where snipers would be entirely genre appropriate; see the Ultimates for a recent example) applied in a self consciously silly Silver Age way ("lets use Red Kryptonite to make Superman freaky").

 

As to using it in a campaign, the tone of the campaign will naturally shape the answers.

[input.jack]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

For the same exact reason that Goldfinger strapped Bond to a table with a laser poised to cut him in half, rather than simply putting a bullet through his head.

 

Genre conventions strike back, forcefully, at those who use their brains instead of simply going with the flow.

 

Exactly.

 

My supers campaign is strongly Bronze Age (big shock, I know). Before allowing a new Player into the game, I explain that there are certain "understood protocols" in the supers world; among them are not killing people indiscriminately, and not yanking masks off willy-nilly.

 

Why?

 

Because when you start doing it to other people, THEY start doing it to YOU.

 

"Heroes" who gain a reputation for killing their opponents will find themselves on the receiving end of sharp nasties from the villains. Why dont villains kill indiscriminately? Well, let me ask you this. If your goal is to rob a bank and get rich, would you want to just blithely shoot a cop in the head because the opportunity presented itself? Do it and you -might- get away. But you might also be caught and charged with murder, rather than robbery. And if you kill a Super, their friends get mad. Really mad.

 

So currently, only the real nut-cases kill people when they dont -have- to. And even THEY are hesitant to start down the spiral of destruction that occurs when a beloved hero gets killed.

 

What goes around comes around.

 

Oh yeah, and if theres ONE thing that heroes are reknowned for, its managing to squeek by at the last second and escape your certain death plan.

 

Then they come a-gunning for YOU.

[zaras]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

Well so far the gm has thrown:

 

Orbital weapons; nearly did the job but couldnt keep up with the characters speed.

 

A nuke; Danger sense and megascale runnings nice- escaped that one without a scratch.

 

Thanos greek titan and god of death; Half killed my pc- then he ran away.

 

The Phoenix with two of the Infinity gems (as in Thanos quest comic run and infinity war crossover). She eventually burned so much power trying to kill the pc she collapsed into a smoking heap.

 

I believe the gm shelved plans for having the pc run into something when he remembered i had precog danger sense.

 

At this point you may be seeing a bit of a common factor and perhaps i should mention the pc in question is the avatar of the god of time (and thus VERY fast and capable of running from danger easily...and the campaign in question near cosmic level (pcs all ranging 500-800 points)

 

I think the gm tried a more subtle aproach when my pc ended up being insane (with several thousand multiple personalitys) coupled with disadvantages requiring con rolls not to die when i created temporal paradox's (quite regular occurence for me). Sometimes i would go into a combat and spend half the time giggling and running round oponents in circles.....I must say though the gm managed to keep everything he did credible and a hell of a lot of fun.

 

Well up until a short while ago all was going well until we hit the campaign finale (of a 4 year build up). My pc tried to FULLY incarnate as the avatar of time.

 

My fellow team mates waited until the pc was involved in manipulating cosmic energys and hacked my would be god of time to pieces. Turns out the prospect of an insane god of time wasnt something they relished (who would ahve thought it?).

 

Moral of the story: surefire silver bullet to ANY superhero/villan is being two apples short of a picnic- In the end insanity WILL catch up with you (not by that stage that your pc will neccesarily care).

 

Oh and never trust your suposed 'Teammates'

[jkwleisemann]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

Tone of the campaign, and tone of the character. Also, the question was technically worded as how would I accomplish it. And, as anybody who's had to play against me in any sort of wargame/tactical game can attest, I'm generally ruthlessly pragmatic about these sort of things.

 

I have to agree that, in most superhero campaigns, that sort of tactic isn't appropriate, certainly not as a commonplace thing. However, happening as an isolated incident, it could make one Hell of a plot to throw into the wringer, particularly if it were used for the purposes of dropping a rogue hero (as an aside - if one of the major superheroes out there went rogue, you don't think there'd be somebody from The Official Authorities ready, willing, and potentially eager to pull the trigger to keep him from levelling half the city?)

 

And Input.Jack - agreed on why they don't go killing each other left and right. Frankly, it's bad for business. As one of my heroes once put it - supers are kinda like modern knights. Some of them are good, some of them are bad. But, in the end, their fights are more like jousting than any sort of legitimate battle, for one simple reason. When the kid gloves come off, that's when you start seeing cities reduced to smoking rubble.

[Great Beyond]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

Natasha - poor old Natasha. While helluva strong and helluva tough, she's had a pretty big exhaust port for the longest time: the ego of a newborn goldfish. After a while she did pick up 75% damage reduction - so bad guys could hit her all day long, but she was just so bad that the damage slid off like eggs off teflon. Magic, however - that was her weak point. Magic attacks would make her fold like a house of cards.

 

Great Beyond - on the other hand, GB doesnt really have kryptonite. She is just an average person who can channel magic, so otherwise catching her off guard is the best way to go. If you had to get into a fight - well, she does fire and ice magic, so the yang to her yin would be earth and air magic. The problem being that if the bad guy is throwing around those, the'll probably be weak to fire and ice. So it's all a matter of who gets the shot off first.

[st barbara]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

"St Barbara's" greatest weakness is that none of her powers work in water. Most of them have a firelike special effect but even the one's that don't (such as her "tractor/pressor"beam) don't work in water. Her force field and "shaped force field" (or force wall) might work in water but 'St B" gets more than a bit nervous when involved with large bodies of water (she CAN swim but she knows that most of her powers don't work and she doesn't like feeling powerless). Of course some of this might change as the PC's are all due for a downgrading of their powers as things seem to have got a bit "cosmic "lately. Most of her other disadvantages are psychological and involve her getting very protective and/or very angry in certain situations. I suppose that she might be a bit vulnerable in those circumstances but atacking an angry young woman who is throwing fireballs around is rarely a good idea !

[David Johnston]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

Granted. Of course, if he's coming after you, you probably also don't have time to go fetch Random Gadget #36 that you designed specially to take the hero down, so....

 

.

 

Simply put, you may not be the first on his list. If you are enough of a wimp that you even think you need such a contingency plan instead of just pummeling your target into the ground with your mad skillz, then there's a good chance that your rogue team-mate or whatever has bigger threats he wants to take out before he gets around to you. Or even if that isn't true, you may just have set things up so someone else will get the contingency plan to avenge you if Superman reasons, "Hey, Batman is such a wimp that he must be the most dangerous man in the world, because it's always the least likely suspect" and takes you out first.

 

Also of course any contingency plan designed to take down a rogue hero had better assume he won't be following his normal day-to-day routine. The sniper strategy only works if you know where your target is going to be at a given time.

[Metaphysician]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

I think the other aspect is that we're appproaching this from the Gamers' Perspective. Find the quickest, most straightforward and most effective means of taking down the character in question.

 

We're not approaching it from the dramatic storytelling perspective, which would require the method approaching be inobvious and creative and pose an interesting dilemma for the character in question.

 

For example, it's noteworthy that the Batman Protocol solution to Superman doesn't just shoot him with a green K bullet (which would presumably have been far easier than synthesizing the special red K which turned his skin transparent). Flash is shot with a bullet that induces epileptic seizures. Why not a bullet that poisons him with cyanide? Why aquaphobia for Aquaman? A high power rifle would kill him off just as effectively, and considerably faster.

 

Depends on how high powered. One particularly bad idea aside, Aquaman is probably bulletproof, with at least one scene explicitly implying it.

[Metaphysician]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

I'm just curious. Get one of these babies. Assume it does 3d6 RKA base damage. Put Armor Peircing rounds in it (yes, they make them). Would a sniper shot to the head work now? What's the head multiplier, x8? Seems like it should...

Hit location mods are typically not used in supers games. Also, hit location mods to Body damage are only applied *after* defense, not before.

 

So, unless the bullet can do body against their defense, it isn't going to do any afterwards, even with a head shot. Personally, I'd rule the same thing true with Stun damage as well. Avoids problems like "Harbinger of Justice one-shots Dr Destroyer."

 

I was thinking of my main character, who is a power suit user. His defenses are Hardended, but a double AP, or AP + Pen, attack is going to cause him lots of worries, esp if it's in the 3d6+ RKA range. This isn't very creative, but he's not got much except his high rDef. Take that away (Find Weekness is another "Run away!" power), and he doesn't have much to fall back on.

 

A metalist would certainly work against him. His INT is high but his EGO is 13 and I purposely left him without Mental Defense. To be creative, maybe a mental suggestion (Mind Control?) that leaves his Inventing ability ruined, and makes him go gaga or build crazy useless stuff in his lab.

 

That and catch him out of armor.

 

As an aside, I'm pretty sure anything with two levels of AP and/or Pen pushes into "supertech" range.

[Hoovdog]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

Well if someone wanted to take down my charecter Ragnoro. The simplest way would be to catch him in human form if one did that he would have no chance to defend himself. 4pd/4ed no resitan defances but the opponant would have to stun him in the first blow if he manged to transform mental attacks or fire. Fire does double body has 30 some pd and ed all resistant. Or find a way to stun him and he reverts to human form. Also if inocents are in danger his first reaction is to help draw him to there aid and hit him as he moved. Also shoot from heights greater then 10" and he could never touch you.

[Tarek]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

I believe that the reason that Batman used Red Kryptonite, siezure-inducing posions, aquaphobia, etc. was because Batman wasn't looking for lethal solutions, but rather reversible and temporary takedowns in case a strong mentalist managed to take over the minds of the JLA.

 

Iron Age plans in a Silver Age universe.

 

However, this begs the question of "why hasn't Batman devised and used plans to take out Darkseid, Joker, Ras al-Ghul, etc. in the same way?"

 

Makes sense to me that Batman would have laid plans like that, BUT it does not make sense to me that Ras would have somehow mysteriously acquired these things without Batman knowing ahead of time. After all, all that stuff was stolen from the Batcave, and you'd think that Batman would check up on these things on a regular basis, say, every six hours or so. Since he thought up these things in the first place, he would have been well aware of what would happen if they were misused...

 

 

Anyway, back to the point:

 

Blue Star is really easy to take down, if you can get him to drink alcohol. x2 Stun, Vulnerable or Suceptible, I forget which... Of course, you'd have to trick him into it, since he's well aware of his inability to metabolize alcohol properly.

[Mike W]

Re: The Champion Protocols (ie how to take down your character)

 

Proteus - Body Manipulator/Shapeshifter. Stay back. Don't go hand to hand. Use weaponry with varying types of effects to force him to spread out his defenses(e.g. "force" guns that attack PD and electro blasters that go against ED).

 

Metal Man - Brick with some degree of metal control. Standard brick tactics. Stay out of range of his fists and hit him with really big guns/energy blasts.

 

Britt - werecat. Again, stay out of range and shoot. May need area of effect weapons or a telepath.

 

(Can you tell the team was heavy on hand to hand people?)

 

Blue Bomber - power armor. gadgets. Hit him with an EMP pulse then mop up. Without the armor, he's a competent fighter but no match for a team of good agents or one mid grade super.