Large Creatures Versus Head Shots

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Large Creatures Versus Head Shots

 

Sounds like a weak dragon to me.

 

I don't have the new FH, but I have the old one sitting here. It seems that this is a problem of balancing the damage output vs. the monsters. In the old fantasy hero, a Very Heavy Longbow is 2d6+1K. The old FH dragon short writeup has 14 PD/9 PD armor (so 23/9r PD), 30 Body and 80 STUN.

 

Before adding any damage through skill levels or martial arts , the bow's max damage would be 13 BODY/65 STUN. The dragon would take 4 BODY and 42 STUN if everything came up 6's. You'd normally not get more than one roll like that in a combat, if at all, so while it's a boatload of STUN, it's still sort of OK.

 

Now, when 4th Edition FH was written, the author probably had in mind that you could add a bit of damage from combat skill levels, though the average character wouldn't have too many to throw to damage anyway, and ranged Martial Arts were probably considered out of genre.

 

However, push that bow to max DCs with levels and MAs maneuvers, and you're cranking out 4.5d6K. That's a max 27 BDY/135 STUN if everything comes up roses, and there are no added stun multiples involved. Same 4th Edition dragon would be hurting plenty in that case. That's 18 BODY/112 STUN, for essentially a one-shotted dragon.

 

If the new edition of FH has similar DCs for the weapons and similar defenses for the dragons, then something is unbalanced.

 

I'd say just give big critters a bit of DR versus Stun only. Stuff that's very big and noted for having a slow to respond nervous system such as grizzly bears, rhinos, elephants, cape buffalo, give 25% vs Stun. For stuff that's larger, such as monsters on the order of medium dragons, medium giants, giant bugs, whatever, go for 50%. For the really scary beasties, sitting at the top of the food chain, give 75%. If it's big, it shouldn't be stunned down easily. An arrow only makes so much of a hole (unless you're the Dukes of Hazzard and you have dynamite arrows... yeee haw!), so it's not likely to stun something the size of a dragon. Most large game animals don't just fold up and die when fatally wounded, they bleed out. Same thing here. Make the body count for taking down big beasties and not the stun.

 

Also, look at the max your characters can dish out when figuring out how tough to make your monsters, as well as the average damage, so you won't be surprised if a serious threat is one shotted. Make your beasties one-shot proof.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Large Creatures Versus Head Shots

 

Of course, you could go with my first thought: Why does a dragon take extra damage from a head shot?

 

Make it a called shot to the eyes, nostrils, ear openings if present, or the open mouth. Then apply a ton of penalties for the small target.

 

Dragons aren't supposed to have vulnerable spots. When your head is the size of a largish normal critter, and probably very heavily armored as well, do you take extra damage from being hit there? I think not. A lot of real world critters have heavily armored heads to the point of shooting them with high powered rifles in the head is generally considered a very bad idea. Same could go for dragons.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Large Creatures Versus Head Shots

 

Does anyone have trouble with large, low DCV creatures constantly sucking up head shots from archers and spell casters until the stun overwhelms them?

 

I had a dragon attack my party last night. At first it was truely terrifying and they ran around screaming mostly. Then, an arrow sticks into its head (pumped with some MA and CLs) and while it only did 3 Body, it did a rediculous amount of stun. After defenses and reduction, down it went. Then they were coup de graceing it and pulling teeth before you can say WTF?

 

Seemed mighty anticlimactic.

 

I've been thinking of giving large creatures extra armor for the head area, and possibly larger PDs then the Beastiary's suggest.

 

any other thoughts?

(Note: I'm using the Greater Dragon from the Bestiary.)

 

First, the DCV is 8 (base) - 8 (Gigantic) + 8 (Head shot) = 8. Not the hardest shot, but not a gimme, either. Add in any Range Modifier.

 

Okay, so the arrow does 24 Body rolled on the dice with a Called Shot to the Head. Subtract 20 (rPD) and 4 Body is left, halved for Damage Reduction and 2 Body is left, doubled for a Head hit and 4 Body is done to the dragon. (Note: With the last Body damage step being x2 for the Head location, I can't get an odd number of Body damage.)

 

Stun damage: 24 (Body rolled) * 5 (Head hit) = 120. 120 - 28 (pd) = 92. 92 * 0.5 (Damage Reduction) = 46 Stun taken. A Greater Dragon would be Stunned.

 

(Note that the minimum Body rolled on a Head shot to Stun the Greater Dragon is 20.)

 

Heck, maybe the archer did get lucky and hit the thing in the eye... how often can the archer roll 24 Body?

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Large Creatures Versus Head Shots

 

Looks like that dragon's a heck of a lot tougher than the old generic one.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Large Creatures Versus Head Shots

 

The thing is that the HERO System Bestiary has optional Hit Location charts for various animals, includng a "Draconic" chart which has the usual x5 Stun Multiplier for a successful head shot. While it's not required that that be used, in a campaign with Hit Locations it's understandable for a GM to want to use that chart or to assume that he should.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Large Creatures Versus Head Shots

 

Fair enough, but the problem with the charts, the critter write ups and the weapons write ups, along with all the combat rules options is that it can all add up to a very short fight if the GM isn't concious of the max potential for damage he's handing his players. Some tweaking is bound to be needed somewhere.

 

If you take too many tools out of the Hero toolkit, you run the risk of dropping one on your foot. =D

[Tywyll]

Re: Large Creatures Versus Head Shots

 

(Note: I'm using the Greater Dragon from the Bestiary.)

 

 

ACtually it was the Acid Dragon from the MMM, only 12 PD defenses and I think 25% Dam Reduction.

[Tywyll]

Re: Large Creatures Versus Head Shots

 

Sounds like a weak dragon to me.

 

The attack did 3 Body. The max stun mulitplier roll on an attack

without the increased stun multiple advantage is 5. A head shot does x5 Stun

for Killing Attacks according to the hit location table. That's *15

STUN* either way.

 

Except that the Stun multiplier comes off of Damage rolled, rather than DAmage taken, so the 3 Body actually came from an attack that did 15 total, x5 for Head Shot, for 75 stun. After its (poorly built) PD of 12 (because the dragons are built with Damage Resistance rather than Armor for some bizarro reason), and then 25% Damage Red (if I remember correctly), leaves him sucking 47 Stun.

 

Not much can take that. *shrug*

 

I do agree that book dragons are weak though.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Large Creatures Versus Head Shots

 

The thing is that the HERO System Bestiary has optional Hit Location charts for various animals' date=' includng a "Draconic" chart which has the usual x5 Stun Multiplier for a successful head shot. While it's not required that that be used, in a campaign with Hit Locations it's understandable for a GM to want to use that chart or to assume that he should.[/quote']

 

I think it's also understandable for players to expect similar rules to apply to their opponents as apply to them. If you don't want your Dragon taken out by a single shot to the head, perhaps the best solution is to remove hit locations from your game entirely and apply a standard Stun multiple of 3 to all hits - whether against dragons or knights!

[Vanguard]

Re: Large Creatures Versus Head Shots

 

I think it's also understandable for players to expect similar rules to apply to their opponents as apply to them. If you don't want your Dragon taken out by a single shot to the head' date=' perhaps the best solution is to remove hit locations from your game entirely and apply a standard Stun multiple of 3 to all hits - whether against dragons or knights![/quote']

 

Only problem I can see with this is that Hit Locations seem to be very useful in Heroic level games. It's kinda what sets them apart from Superheroic.

 

The thing is stricking a balance between CV's, damage delt and defenses. Which seems to be what Tywyll is running up against. It took us awhile in Gatecrashers to come to a balance between the three.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Large Creatures Versus Head Shots

 

Except that the Stun multiplier comes off of Damage rolled, rather than DAmage taken, so the 3 Body actually came from an attack that did 15 total, x5 for Head Shot, for 75 stun. After its (poorly built) PD of 12 (because the dragons are built with Damage Resistance rather than Armor for some bizarro reason), and then 25% Damage Red (if I remember correctly), leaves him sucking 47 Stun.

 

Not much can take that. *shrug*

 

I do agree that book dragons are weak though.

 

*sucks down another Fresca*

 

Oh. The reason that bigger badder creatures are built with Damage Reduction (or DR as I refer to it) instead of Armor is pretty straight forward. Enough rPD and you take no BODY. Period, you just take no BODY, you're good to go. You're a tank in a world without LAW rockets. Damage Reduction is horrible, it's brutal, but it's also necessary, unless your party has +PEN weaponry, or +AP rounds. Even then, there's no guarantee.

 

I mean, seriously, I watched a Krav Maga specialist roll 4 1s in damage in my last game (1, 1, 1, 1, I kid you not). It defined embarrassing. However, if Armor were added commesurate with how we imagine dragons to be, you would pretty much need anti tank weaponry to deal damage to it. This is the one Advantage of a hit point system; you're almost always doing SOMETHING, but then, as I say, that's what STUN is for.

 

If your heavy fighter is wielding a Great Sword for 2d6, and he comes up on a Dragon, there are a few things to keep in mind. First, unless he's purchased Dragon Slayer, +2d6 Killing v. Dragons as a special ability (from FH), he maxes out at 4d6, or an average of 14 BODY. A 9 rPD Dragon is going to ignore most of his 2d6 swings and only be taking STUN damage. The best chance the party has is to either STUN the SOB or CON STUN him to give themselves a chance.

 

Or start casting Major Transforms at it.

 

But in the case of your Dragon, the easiest way to look at it might be like this. First, determine how tough the dragon would be at normal people size - we'll say it's got a scaly hide that's pretty well reinforced - 5 DEF. Now for every size category past Large, we add 1 DEF. By the time you get to Dragon size you're in the 8-9 range (Plate Mail). This is commesurate with the d20 system as well, but in HERO it might not be the best solution. Hence, Damage Reduction. Still take STUN, still take BODY without going nuts on the armor.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Large Creatures Versus Head Shots

 

ACtually it was the Acid Dragon from the MMM' date=' only 12 PD defenses and I think 25% Dam Reduction.[/quote']Got it.

 

Except that the Stun multiplier comes off of Damage rolled, rather than DAmage taken, so the 3 Body actually came from an attack that did 15 total, x5 for Head Shot, for 75 stun. After its (poorly built) PD of 12 (because the dragons are built with Damage Resistance rather than Armor for some bizarro reason), and then 25% Damage Red (if I remember correctly), leaves him sucking 47 Stun.

 

Not much can take that. *shrug*

 

I do agree that book dragons are weak though.

Okay, DCV is 7 (base) - 6 (Huge) + 8 (Head shot) = 9. Add in any Range Modifier.

 

The arrow does 15 Body rolled on the dice with a Called Shot to the Head. Subtract 12 (rPD) and 3 Body is left, minus one for Damage Reduction and 2 Body is left, doubled for a Head hit and 4 Body is done to the dragon.

 

Stun damage: 15 (Body rolled) * 5 (Head hit) = 75. 75 - 16 (pd) = 59. 59 * 0.75 (Damage Reduction) = 44 Stun taken, Stunning the Acid-Spitting Dragon.

 

15 Body on 3d6 is not unreasonable; I agree, the Acid-Spitting Dragon from MMM is much weaker than the Greater Dragon in the HSB.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Large Creatures Versus Head Shots

 

Except that the Stun multiplier comes off of Damage rolled, rather than DAmage taken, so the 3 Body actually came from an attack that did 15 total, x5 for Head Shot, for 75 stun. After its (poorly built) PD of 12 (because the dragons are built with Damage Resistance rather than Armor for some bizarro reason), and then 25% Damage Red (if I remember correctly), leaves him sucking 47 Stun.

 

Not much can take that. *shrug*

 

I do agree that book dragons are weak though.

 

You managed to quote a math error after I deleted it. Anyway, weak dragon, yeah.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Large Creatures Versus Head Shots

 

Another possibility (in house rule territory):

 

Reduce the STUN multiple by 1 for each size category larger than the size the attacker's weapon is for, e.g. bows and arrows sized to be used by a human are "human sized" and each size category larger the target is gets -1 STUNx.

 

Actually that seems a little too drastic. Instead, make it -1 STUNx for each 2 size categories larger. This way a horse-sized critter take the normal amount. But an elephant-sized dragon would only take x4 STUN from a head shot.

 

Keep the normal minimum STUNx. Or maybe simply reduce the maximum only, so that the Head is x4, but normal x4 areas are still x4.

 

And using this rule would mean that a giant (using giant-sized weapons) vs a dragon of roughly the same size would do the normal amount of STUN. And I guess humans using seige weapons vs a dragon would likewise have this penalty reduced as appropriate.

[Old Man]

Re: Large Creatures Versus Head Shots

 

I read this thread and am totally confused, since I'm still stuck in prehistoric versions of Hero where size had nothing to do with DCV. I can't ever remember fighting a dragon that was less than DCV 7. Size used to decrease penalties for range but that's it. Size absolutely does not equal slowness and it really absolutely shouldn't reduce DCV in melee. If that's the case now then it's a serious mistake in the current iteration of the rules.

[CUnknown]

Re: Large Creatures Versus Head Shots

 

DCV can only ever be halved, regardless of penalties, right? So, it seems that the Dragon's DCV on a head shot should be: 7 - 6 = 4 (half) + 8 = 12.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Large Creatures Versus Head Shots

 

I read this thread and am totally confused' date=' since I'm still stuck in prehistoric versions of Hero where size had nothing to do with DCV. I can't ever remember fighting a dragon that was less than DCV 7. Size used to decrease penalties for range but that's it. Size absolutely does not equal slowness and it really absolutely shouldn't reduce DCV in melee. If that's the case now then it's a serious mistake in the current iteration of the rules.[/quote']The size templates in 5er and the Bestiary have minus DCV penalties for size as Physical Limitations. That's where it comes from.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Large Creatures Versus Head Shots

 

DCV can only ever be halved' date=' regardless of penalties, right?[/quote']No; halving DCV is the last step, after all other +/- modifiers have been taken. IIRC, DCV can never be lower than zero.

 

IDHMBIFOM, though.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Large Creatures Versus Head Shots

 

I read this thread and am totally confused' date=' since I'm still stuck in prehistoric versions of Hero where size had nothing to do with DCV. I can't ever remember fighting a dragon that was less than DCV 7. Size used to decrease penalties for range but that's it. Size absolutely does not equal slowness and it really absolutely shouldn't reduce DCV in melee. If that's the case now then it's a serious mistake in the current iteration of the rules.[/quote']

 

I believe it was only in 3e that size (growth or shrinking) affected range penalties rather than DCV.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Large Creatures Versus Head Shots

 

I've never met anyone who has met a dragon' date=' actually. I guess I live a very sheltered life.[/quote']

 

Most of them don't live to tell about it, I imagine.

[Old Man]

Re: Large Creatures Versus Head Shots

 

The size templates in 5er and the Bestiary have minus DCV penalties for size as Physical Limitations. That's where it comes from.

 

There's a lot of changes in 5th that I didn't like, but that one is retarded on several levels. What are DCV penalties doing in the disadvantages box? DCV penalties for levels of Growth aren't good enough? Why does being big make you slower? Didn't anyone think through the game balance implications that we now have to discuss in this thread?

[LoresLost]

Re: Large Creatures Versus Head Shots

 

There's a lot of changes in 5th that I didn't like' date=' but that one is retarded on several levels. What are DCV penalties doing in the disadvantages box? DCV penalties for levels of Growth aren't good enough? Why does being big make you slower? Didn't anyone think through the game balance implications that we now have to discuss in this thread?[/quote']

 

Not meaning to butt in, but the 5ER says not to use the Power: Growth (or Shrinking) (0 END always on) for Larger(/Smaller) then normal creatures but to use a bunch of Disads, other powers and Skills to build them.

 

I was building a character both ways, a 'fay' (6 inch humanoid), to see which way was more cost effective and found that it costs breaks for a only slightly for the Always on Shrinking (approx 60 pts for 4 lvls w always on vs the disadds +8 DCV bonus + (Stealth 21-) + (Conselment 20- self only)) I seen this argument earlier this year in the rules forum and personally chalk it up to the same purpose as regeration being folded into healing, Instant Change folded into Transform, etc.

I can post my characters if you want to see it.

 

That is how the present official rules present Larger and Smaller then normal creatures(but then this is only a game and I would house much of it differently myself (If I where in game presently))

[Old Man]

Re: Large Creatures Versus Head Shots

 

the 5ER says not to use the Power: Growth (or Shrinking) (0 END always on) for Larger(/Smaller) then normal creatures but to use a bunch of Disads' date=' other powers and Skills to build them. [/quote']

 

Laaaame.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Large Creatures Versus Head Shots

 

Personally I just use the Growth/Shrinking stuff. It makes me feel warm and fuzzy that way.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Large Creatures Versus Head Shots

 

Personally, if a player brought me a character with Growth/Shrinking, Always On, Inherent rather than one that bought all the results of that Growth/Shrinking and called it "bigger/smaller", I'd be OK with that approach too. However, as I read 5e, the intent is to rule that Growth and Shrinking allow a character to change his size, not be permanently of a different size, which is no big deal.

 

But I'm also OK with the player bringing me a character who simply purchased all the attributes which would have come with that level of Growth/Shrinking, and with one who leaves off some of those attributes on the basis that this specific character doesn't gain those benefits and/or suffer those drawbacks.