What's with all the points

[assault]

Re: What's with all the points

 

As far as stat inflation goes:

 

My 4th edition, 250 point "template" character was:

Chars: 125 points

Skills & Perks: 25 points

Powers: 100 points

 

My 5th edition, 350 point "template" characters is"

Chars: 125 points

Skills & Perks: 50 points

Powers: 175 points

 

By "template" character, I mean 'these are more or less the number of points I usually allocate to each category'.

 

As far as my characters go, the inflation is predominantly in powers. Usually, this goes on stuff like Life Support and other "neat things to have", plus a few options to increase the character's flexibility.

 

Not coincidentally, I still build a lot of 250 point characters. I sometimes lower my benchmarks for them, but a lot of the time I build them with similar attacks, defences, CVs and SPDs to my 350 pointers.

 

FWIW, my 5th edition benchmarks are based on the random character generator in the Champions Genre book. My 4th and earlier standards are based on the notes in the back of the 2nd edition rules, plus an extra allocation for skills to fill the 250 point total.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: What's with all the points

 

You seem to think I've attached some sort of negative connotiation to the phrase "stat inflation"' date=' and believe me I haven't. [/quote']

 

Ah. Usually when that term is thrown around it is used in a judgemental negative sense. Thanks for the clarification. Although Zorn's posts shows the recomended stats for 2nd to be right around the same for 5th - the 5th suggestions for 350 pt characters are a little wider, but they center pretty much the same.

[Robyn]

Re: What's with all the points

 

I look at a lot of the player made characters' date=' and will never be convinced this is THE reason the majority of the players like the increase.[/quote']

 

To repeat (part of) my question from earlier, was this increase only from player-made characters or did HERO officially pave the way?

 

If it was only the player-made characters, I could see how this was all caused by escalation from the munchkins submitting 350-point characters, and everyone else just trying to keep up

[Psylint]

Re: What's with all the points

 

A quick run through of 1st I didn't see anything like that' date=' but the example "normal human trained to fight - no superpowers" character Crusader has a 25 Dex and a 6 speed. [/quote']

 

Then again, if I recall correctly you were limited to one attack per phase. No rapid fire, sweeps or the like.

 

With Sweeps, it's a lot easier to see Bruce Lee as being speed 4, I mean it's still 9-12 attacks in 12 seconds.

[zornwil]

Re: What's with all the points

 

Reguardless of your reasoning, it IS stat inflation. You seem to think I've attached some sort of negative connotiation to the phrase "stat inflation", and believe me I haven't. You have inflated the stats to make your supers more super, and I'm not saying it's a bad thing nor have I accused you of any crime. Like you've said it is the accepted method, which is why I beileve stat inflation was the major contributing factor to going from 250 to 350.

 

TheUnknown,

I don't know why you think I'm acting arogant, but you may want to watch the condensention in your own post if you're going to accuse someone else of it. In LM's post she said she prefered more super, supers so used higher stats to get the feel she wants, I called (and still call) that design philosophy Stat Inflation. Eosin said he gives Cap a 7 SPD, which goes a LONG way to proving my point about stat inflation, hence my comment, "A lot of you are proving my point". If you took some offense to that, please explain why, and I'll see if I can clear up any misunderstandings.

 

Zornwil,

"...the desire of players to play characters more advanced than early on in Champions..." I think there is a direct relation to this and stat inflation (which I will expand to cover power inflation also. No longer is 12d6 good enough), so yes I do believe this was a contributing factor.

 

As far as more granularity (which I assume you mean more background skills) I believe it was probably a reason the designers did it, but I don't believe it's why it was so universally accepted by the players. I look at a lot of the player made characters, and will never be convinced this is THE reason the majority of the players like the increase.

Why players like it and why it was designed are two different things. I didn't think we were discussing why people like having more points. I think in every game (given it is a game), people like "more" until that "more" breaks the game.

 

But I really think you dismiss this granular approach way too easily. While I do say part of the increase to 350 is to make more powerful supers (though I am not really sure it's stats per se that are getting exaggerated, looking back on earlier editions, I think it's more a general powering up which may or may not be reflected in stats), when we look back in prior editions we had nowhere near the options for Perks and Skills, and the expectation, as this board evidences, is in many games (certainly not all, no idea if it's a majority) has grown accordingly with the explosion of these options for more detail.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: What's with all the points

 

Then again, if I recall correctly you were limited to one attack per phase. No rapid fire, sweeps or the like.

 

With Sweeps, it's a lot easier to see Bruce Lee as being speed 4, I mean it's still 9-12 attacks in 12 seconds.

 

Exactly. With all the many varied options available, it's much easier to run a combat effective "Super-normal" with NCM-range stats these days than it was back in the olden days. In fact, Blackjack, my gadgeteer/martial artist/leader archtype was originally built with a 23 Dex, 5 Speed and only around 20-30 points in Non Combat skills back in the pre 4th edition days. When I rewrote him for 4th edition, I added NCM, about 80 points worth of skills, around 20 additional points in Martial arts, rearrainged and added levels, and dropped all his stats down to high human levels (I kept the 23 INT even with the double cost).

 

As I recall, the first campaign I got involved in way back in 1st-2nd edition days had averages of 14dc attacks, 24 Dex and 6 Speed.

 

In my case its Stat Deflation, I guess. I attribute it to playing a lot more Heroic level games and thus both desiring the same complexity in my characters, and increased ability to function to the dramatic level desired with lower stats due to a better understanding of the system and the greater avialable options.

[gojira]

Re: What's with all the points

 

I thought it might be interesting to hearken back to 2e (I don't have 1e) and its advice on values for stats - it says:

 

Third edition has almost the same text, word for word. They only change "character" to "hero" in places, and of course the point count goes from 225 to 250. It's on page 96.

 

It's interesting, I'm reading through 5th edition Champions for the third time. I always find a little bit I missed or skimmed over before. It has the following:

 

...the higher the point total is, the comparatively more powerful gadget-based heroes can become. If a 200 Base Point superhero has 100 of his points invested in an OIF powered armor suit, he functions at the level of a character with 250 points. He's not so much more powerful than his confederates that it more than makes up for the occasional difficulties he faces for having his Focus break down or temporarily lost. But if a 400 Base Point superhero has 300 of his points in an OIF,he functions as a 550 point character, a more significant difference in power levels.

 

(Love that indent tag. )

 

So this might be part of the problem with "point inflation." A game that was pretty well balanced at 225 points becomes unwieldy at 350 points, with out some additional GM imposed restrictions. It's a matter of adjusting to the new levels, for both GM and players.

 

I used to be very against the current paradigm of requiring "no figured characteristics" on primary stats bought with OIF. We never used to do that before. However, after running some numbers, I can sure see why one would do this. The amount of points that can be squeezed out of a 350 point character with a big OIF is quite impressive, and certainly bears some scrutiny. Requiring "no figured characteristics" for his primary stats is a pretty small deal.

 

I've been really impressed with my 5th edition Champions book. If you don't have it, I'd recommend it. It really does have a decent list of ideas for keeping things in check, points-wise, with superheroes, as well as tonnes of advice in other areas too.

[zornwil]

Re: What's with all the points

 

Although I think 350 is still a generally balanced area without too much GM work, I think the game generally doesn't scale up quite so well the more and more up you go. And part of the problem is inherent - the level of granularity in the system also makes character sheets more difficult to read when you're purchasing 800 points' worth of stuff (assuming you are fairly diverse).

 

That said, I saw a great high-powered game that was well-balanced and well-run by Gamerz123 at a con.

[Eosin]

Re: What's with all the points

 

Eosin,

The reason you think Cap needs a 7 SPD to simulate the comics is because of the level you've put everone else. You've given Marvel Girl a 4 SPD, in my world, you've just made Marvel Girl as fast as Bruce Lee. I can give Cap a 4 SPD and simulate what he does in the comics just as well as you. I don't see any reason for you to get defensive, we all live in our own campaign world if it works for you great. I'm explaining why there was an increase is points from 250 to 350. My system, 350 points isn't needed, you disagree great, I won't and am not trying to convince anyone my way is better, or your way is wrong. I have NEVER said it was, and is in fact the way the majority of people play. I'm just trying to answer the question in the original post.

 

 

Not defensive, I just dislike being told why I am subconsciously doing something and you did quote my post in specificlly as being in "disagreement." We all play a bit differently and have different expectations but I don't try to presume why you would run Cappy at a 4 SPD and if you were to tell me why I wouldn't say "well, you only think that is why he has a 4 SPD. The real reason is ...." which is what you said in both of your posts to me. I know why he is built the way he is and I can compare him with any of our dozens of Marvel characters and he works just like he does in the comics. I can also say that it is not because we were building him in 5th edition with stat inflation exerting it unnoted influence on us.

 

On an related note, these X-men & Cappy were built under the assumption of a 250 point base compaign under 4th Edition rules and recently updated to 5th ED but the stats didn't change.

 

I also agree that Marvel Girl can be argued as a 3 SPD or 4 SPD and work. However, I'd place Bruce as a 5 SPD --- he was the fastest man alive.

[Starwolf]

Re: What's with all the points

 

While I agree there is some stat inflation, the main thing I have experienced is skill explosion. And there is official "canon" precedent. If I take a base starting character and add just the packages "required" in Dark Champions pages 51 through 55, to make a Delta Force soldier, it costs 215 points as listed in the book. This is supposedly a "normal" human and I have already spent more than the usual number of allowed points for character construction, never mind customizing my stats, or adding any personal touches to the skills. And to make matters worse, my starting stats with this cookie cutter delta soldier would be 15 Str, 15 DEX, 17 CON, 10 BODY, 13 INT, 10 EGO, 15 PRE, 10 COM, 3 PD, 3 ED, 2 SPD, 6 REC, 34 STUN, & 27 END. While these stats are generally satisfactory, I would like to be able to bump SPD to at least 3, but as listed I am already out of points for a standard heroic level game EVEN with the new rules. Plus my super soldier starts with a base of 10" of running and 4" of swimming

[bigdamnhero]

Re: What's with all the points

 

Reguardless of your reasoning' date=' it IS stat inflation.[/quote']

“Stat inflation” means that stats have crept upwards over time, but I don't believe that is the case. (It also implies power gaming and other negative attitudes, regardless of how you say you intend it.) The first Hero book I have is 1Ed FH (ie 3Ed Hero), which states:

(p97) "The range from 8-12 is considered normal. Characteristics from 13-15 are notable; people will remark on your Strength or your Dexterity to describe you -- he's strong, he's quick. Characteristics from 16-20 are remarkable (one in a thousand), and characters with such stats are unusual; they're described as very strong, incredibly tough, unusually smart. Characteristics over 20 are very rare (one in a million); songs are sung and stories told of heroes with a 25 STR, or the woman with a Comeliness of 24."

Looking at the Characteristic Comparison Table in 5ER (p40), those categories don't seem to have changed at all in the last 20 years.

 

Going back at your “benchmark:”

Let's reset the benchmarks a bit and see what happens: Joe Normal that works out 20 minutes a day has an 8 STR' date=' 8 DEX and 2 SPD. A typical Navy SEAL has a 11 STR, 13 DEX, 3 SPD. Not enough you say? Well let's take a look shall we: 11 STR, He's 1.5x as strong as Joe Normal. His is twice as dexterous and Joe Normal and his reaction time is 50% better than Joe Normal.[/quote']

The Navy SEALS and other special forces types I've known have, for the most part, been among the most physically fit human beings I've ever met. Saying they are one in a thousand is probably underestimating them. (I don't believe there are 280,000 individuals in the US that could pass SEAL school.) They are only “normal” in the context of They’re Not Superheroes.

 

Now you’re perfectly free to put all their stats in the 8-12 range if you want. But then they’re only going to be marginally more combat effective than Joe Normal. I don’t believe that accurately models reality, let alone Heroic Genre Fiction.

 

You've given Marvel Girl a 4 SPD' date=' in my world, you've just made Marvel Girl as fast as Bruce Lee. I can give Cap a 4 SPD and simulate what he does in the comics just as well as you. [/quote']

Unfair comparison: Bruce Lee was a real person, living in the real world, with NCMs and all else that implies. Transfer him to a superhero world as-is, and he’d be a mook. (Sorry, Bruce.) He wouldn’t/shouldn’t/couldn’t last 5 seconds against Cap as he’s portrayed in the comics; heck, even Marvel Girl could probably give him a run for his money. Now if that’s not how you want to run you game, fine, that’s your choice. But the assumption in most superhero comics is that superheroes can wipe the floor with any roomful of “normals.” And when the normals are built on 150-200 points (the range I’ve been using for Heroic characters for 20+ years), your superheroes have to be correspondingly tougher to take them on. When Champions and FH were seperate games, maybe it didn’t matter as much. But when they merged heroic & superheroic into one system, it became necessary to power up the supers accordingly.

 

That is a conscious design choice, not “stat inflation” in any meaningful sense of the phrase. Unless you just mean "the number of points went up," which is factually accurate, but does nothing to address why.

[Shaft]

Re: What's with all the points

 

Unfair comparison: Bruce Lee was a real person' date=' living in the real world, with NCMs and all else that implies. Transfer him to a superhero world as-is, and he’d be a mook. (Sorry, Bruce.) He wouldn’t/shouldn’t/couldn’t last 5 seconds against Cap as he’s portrayed in the comics; heck, even Marvel Girl could probably give him a run for his money. [/quote']

 

Marvel Girl with her impressive ~40 STR TK would have an edge over Bruce Lee, but that's because of her powers. If you deactivate her TK, do you maintain that her physical capabilities are up there with Bruce Lee's, who you classify as a "mook" the same as any other Viper thug?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What's with all the points

 

I find it interresting that Captain America is now considered 'super' when I seem to recal that the original Handbook to the MU listed him as having the maximum human potential*.

 

If a character in a Champions game takes the NCM* disadvantage he has a hard characteristic cap of 30 DEX and 6 SPD (and pays x2 for anything higher than 20 and 4 respectively). Anything higher therefore must be considered powers which Cap does not have.

 

Bruce Lee is an interresting comparison as well since he had to slow down many of his fight scenes in his movies so the camera could catch them. He was too fast for the the audience to follow at his normal speed.

 

One of the best write ups for Bruce Lee I have ever seen was done by Michael Surbrook (Susano on this board) and can be found here:

 

http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptationshkaction/brucelee.html

 

And he just happens to be built with a 30 DEX and 6 SPD.

[assault]

Re: What's with all the points

 

But the assumption in most superhero comics is that superheroes can wipe the floor with any roomful of “normals.” And when the normals are built on 150-200 points (the range I’ve been using for Heroic characters for 20+ years)' date=' your superheroes have to be correspondingly tougher to take them on.[/quote']

 

"Normals" built on 150-200 points aren't exactly "normal", in my book. Some of them at least should be able to give lower powered supers a hard time.

 

I don't generally use them as mooks, but rather as leaders of mooks.

 

Yes, I know about the packages in Dark Champions.

[Tech]

Re: What's with all the points

 

I don't have a copy of 1st. Where do you live? Do you lock your doors?

 

 

I also have a copy of the very 1st edition and yes, I keep my doors locked.

[Tech]

Re: What's with all the points

 

"Normals" built on 150-200 points aren't exactly "normal"' date=' in my book. Some of them at least [i']should[/i] be able to give lower powered supers a hard time.

 

I don't generally use them as mooks, but rather as leaders of mooks.

 

Yes, I know about the packages in Dark Champions.

 

Normals, by the name itself, refers to your average, ordinary guy/girl in the world. As people become skilled, extremely skilled, top best trained people in their field, they are still normals but skilled, not superpowered.

 

For myself in my campaign, many bankrobbers or thugs the heroes meet are at 11 or 12 Dex with 2 or 3 speed tops, some still at base stats of 10 Dex with 2 SPD.

 

However, this digresses from the forum topic.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: What's with all the points

 

Marvel Girl with her impressive ~40 STR TK would have an edge over Bruce Lee' date=' but that's because of her powers. If you deactivate her TK, do you maintain that her physical capabilities are up there with Bruce Lee's, who you classify as a "mook" the same as any other Viper thug?[/quote']

Bruce Lee was, by definition, a non-superpowered martial-artist. Good as he was, he was not able to leap 50' in the air, dodge bullets, or ram his fists repeatedly into solid steel without injuring himself. Yet mooks do that all the time in the Marvel or DC universes, and still get trounced by even "depowered" superheroes. (Remember when Storm lost her powers and suddenly became the world's greatest HtH fighter?) Now I never was enough of an X-Fan to talk specifically about Marvel Girl's physical powers, but non-powered heroes routinely walk over any martial artist who is below Iron Fist level. Not saying it's realistic or remotely believable, but it is genre. Which, again, doesn't mean you have to play it that way. But I'm kinda surprised that you're surprised that other people might.

 

And yes, calling Bruce a "mook" is a deliberate exaggeration on my part to make a point. But honestly, it's not that far off when you compare the kind of stuff "normals" can do in comics compared to what even the world's best martial artists can do in reality.

 

"Normals" built on 150-200 points aren't exactly "normal"' date=' in my book. Some of them at least [i']should[/i] be able to give lower powered supers a hard time.

 

I don't generally use them as mooks, but rather as leaders of mooks.

Point taken. And if they had to pay points for their gear, you've essentially got Nick Fury et. al. OK, I revise my statement: Bruce would've been a Mook Leader. Still, I think the idea that superheroes are a step above is not an uncommon one.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: What's with all the points

 

I also have a copy of the very 1st edition and yes' date=' I keep my doors locked. [/quote']

They auctioned off copies of 1st Ed & 2nd Ed Champions at a recent con...and I missed the auction because my game ran late! None of my friends bid on them for me because, and I quote "You're such a Hero fanatic, we figured you already owned copies."

[assault]

Re: What's with all the points

 

Normals' date=' by the name itself, refers to your average, ordinary guy/girl in the world. As people become skilled, extremely skilled, top best trained people in their field, they are still normals but skilled, not superpowered.[/quote']

 

True, but they can be better combatants, be built on more points, and have higher characteristics.

 

"Boxer in a mask" is a very old "superhero" origin. I reject the notion that Wildcat or the Atom should inherently have lower characteristics than Marvel Girl. Ego? Sure, she's a mentalist. Com? Sure, she's hot. Int? Possibly, although the Atom was a college student. Pre? Nope. Speed? Nope. Dex? Nope...

 

To put it simply, there is not a hard and fast separation between "normal" and "superpowered" people. Rather, there is a broad spectrum, with plenty of grey areas.

 

The Atom and Wildcat could take out a roomful of "normals". Then again, they could also take out a roomful of "superhumans", in many cases. Maybe not the Spectre or Dr Fate, and they would have to get the drop on the Flash, but they could take out the rest of the JSA well enough. And vice versa.

[radioKAOS]

Re: What's with all the points

 

I find it interresting that Captain America is now considered 'super' when I seem to recal that the original Handbook to the MU listed him as having the maximum human potential*.

 

If a character in a Champions game takes the NCM* disadvantage he has a hard characteristic cap of 30 DEX and 6 SPD (and pays x2 for anything higher than 20 and 4 respectively). Anything higher therefore must be considered powers which Cap does not have.

 

Bruce Lee is an interresting comparison as well since he had to slow down many of his fight scenes in his movies so the camera could catch them. He was too fast for the the audience to follow at his normal speed.

 

One of the best write ups for Bruce Lee I have ever seen was done by Michael Surbrook (Susano on this board) and can be found here:

 

http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptationshkaction/brucelee.html

 

And he just happens to be built with a 30 DEX and 6 SPD.

 

And 20STR. This is obviously a romantisized version of Bruce. I like it mind you, but it's not realistic.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: What's with all the points

 

"Boxer in a mask" is a very old "superhero" origin. I reject the notion that Wildcat or the Atom should inherently have lower characteristics than Marvel Girl. Ego? Sure, she's a mentalist. Com? Sure, she's hot. Int? Possibly, although the Atom was a college student. Pre? Nope. Speed? Nope. Dex? Nope...

 

To put it simply, there is not a hard and fast separation between "normal" and "superpowered" people. Rather, there is a broad spectrum, with plenty of grey areas.

I could argue there is a seperation: it's just not one based on any kind of logic known to our reality. Boxers who decide to put on spandex and fight crime are superpowered; those who don't are "normal." Like I said, not logical, but it does reflect the source material. However, your points are still well taken.

 

Regarding poor Jean, as someone pointed out to me awhile back when I was dissing Cyclops: "The guy has been working out in the Danger Room almost every day since the 1960s."

[Shaft]

Re: What's with all the points

 

Bruce Lee was' date=' by definition, a non-superpowered martial-artist. Good as he was, he was [u']not[/u] able to leap 50' in the air, dodge bullets, or ram his fists repeatedly into solid steel without injuring himself. Yet mooks do that all the time in the Marvel or DC universes, and still get trounced by even "depowered" superheroes.

 

You have a point. But not every mook can do that, and the mooks that do that are still relatively rare.

 

Unfortunately, comic writers don't have absolute metrics to compare characters to one another the way a character sheet allows a GM to gauge his PCs and NPCs. Also, there can be decades of different experiences.

 

Not saying it's realistic or remotely believable' date=' but it [u']is[/u] genre. Which, again, doesn't mean you have to play it that way. But I'm kinda surprised that you're surprised that other people might.

 

I was surprised by you calling Bruce Lee a mook. Sorry if it came off as sounding more abrasive than it was meant to be.

 

And yes, calling Bruce a "mook" is a deliberate exaggeration on my part to make a point. But honestly, it's not that far off when you compare the kind of stuff "normals" can do in comics compared to what even the world's best martial artists can do in reality.

 

Point made. It seems like writers can't even agree on what a mook's abilities should be. It's no wonder that the fans on this board who seek to emulate their work through a different medium, don't agree either. Trying to create metrics from different sources is messy.

[Shaft]

Re: What's with all the points

 

I could argue there is a seperation: it's just not one based on any kind of logic known to our reality.

 

Well put.

[Checkmate]

Re: What's with all the points

 

Sorry nothing to see here. More argumentative than it needed to be and trying to keep a New Year resolution.

[assault]

Re: What's with all the points

 

I could argue there is a seperation: it's just not one based on any kind of logic known to our reality.

 

I like it.