What's with all the points

[JPicasso]

I am a gamer returning to the scene after a 10-year hiatus. I grew up on 3rd edition rules and never saw the 4th edition copy. I’ve been reading a lot of these forums and it occurs to me that the heroes these days tend to be a lot more points. Now, without making this a “Back in my day, we didn’t need 350 points to make an effective character” discussion, let me start with this:

 

Back in my day, we didn’t need 350 points to make an effective character. We got 250 points and we loved it! Our “bouncy” superheroes ran at about 250, pulp and low powered supers ran in at 200 and fantasy hero was 150. That is, if my memory is anything like it used to be. .

 

Seriously, have the rules significantly changed to require the extra points. Or am I just running into a lot of groups that would rather play the Paladin with a +5 Holy avenger rather than the Paladin with a pointed stick. (forgive the D&D ref)

[Doc Democracy]

Re: What's with all the points

 

The iuncrease in points is there to reflect a difference in the assumptions made about character producing.

 

Early editions of Champions focussed on the powers and very broad brush skills and background details. You wouldn't expect to spend lots of points on contacts, knowledge skills and other background detail.

 

In the current version there is an expectation that the character will be fully fleshed out and detailed on the character sheet, no longer will PS: Detective 14- be enough to provide all of the necessary to get by as a PI.

 

And its nice not to have to compromise your design as much when looking at powers.

 

 

Doc

[Checkmate]

Re: What's with all the points

 

Let me start with there is a HUGE difference between 3rd and 5th HUGE. However, the difference between 4th, which was also 250pts, and 5th is very minimal. With that clarification in place, I'll tell you what I believe.

 

The original justification was that Element Controls and Multipowers were supposed to be a much tighter concept. A quick look at the "official" characters proved that to be fluff and just not true (Helpful Magics anyone?).

 

The real reason, in my opinion, is everyone wants the +5 Holy Avenger. The problem was (and I'm about to start a HUGE war here) everyone wants Batman to have a 7 SPD. Others looked at Batman with his 7 SPD and thought that if Batman, a normal human, has a 7 SPD then my SUPER fast hero must have a 8 SPD. And the same thing happened with DEX, STR and every other stat. So people started complaining that 250 just wasn't enough points for skills and to round out their characters, and I guess when you've base lined the slowest super with a 23 DEX and 6 SPD just to keep up, they were probably right. So instead of trying to end the stats inflation by making the official characters more reasonable in stats, they felt raising the cap was easier.

 

Since you did include a D&D reference, I will say Wizards of the Coast (current "owners" of the D&D franchise) did pretty much the same thing with 3rd edition and beyond. Catered to the "power gamer" for lack of a better word. Any race can be any class and go as high as they want as any class and can multiclass as much as they want. There are pretty much no limitations (yes, yes an XP penalty if you multiclass TOO much, but there are even ways around that).

 

In an attempt to stem the flow of fire I will inevitably receive, let me clarify that this is simiply my view of things. It is MY opinion. I am in NO WAY saying any of this is absloulte, irrefutable fact.

 

There, now they can't say I didn't try.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: What's with all the points

 

My unscientific answer is that it's about:

 

15% power increase

10% some things more expensive

50% skill/etc. explosion

10% some new options available

15% rounding out

 

Some 250pt 3rd ed characters could be built for around the same points. Some to meet the current standards would probably be more expensive.

 

If you have access to a copy of Sidekick or 5th ed HERO, you could convert some of your old 250pt characters, tack on some of the things they "should" have based on concept, and see where you stand point wise. If you don't have access, perhaps you could post up the stats/etc. for one of them here along with a bit of concept/etc. and someone could update for you to give you an idea.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What's with all the points

 

Another reason not exactly mentioned so far is that 350 points for Supers helps differentiate them from Heroic characters. Some Heroic characters might cost 150-200+ pts to build but when factoring in the 'free' equipment they get to carry they can outclass many 250 pt supers. To be truly Super in a world with semi-realistic agents the average Superhero needs to be at least as good as a top 'normal' agent imho.

[BoneDaddy]

Re: What's with all the points

 

A lot of it is simple point inflation. I do find that my 350 point characters are more well rounded than my 250s were, but only on paper. I haven't used a background skill yet, but man I have 'em!

[Eosin]

Re: What's with all the points

 

Back in my day' date=' we didn’t need 350 points to make an effective character. We got 250 points and we loved it! Our “bouncy” superheroes ran at about 250, pulp and low powered supers ran in at 200 and fantasy hero was 150. That is, if my memory is anything like it used to be. [/quote']

 

You can make an effective character for 10 points or 1,000 points - it is the genre, settings, and inherent expectations that determine what "effective" really means. Most novel, comic, movie or other media central characters tend to hedge out into the upper echelon of points (500+ points). Players want something more like the "central character" but IME when you give them the points, they just make bigger combat monsters.

 

Something of a conundrum.

 

In our rare X-men game we build to match the established character and all builds are done by the GM and a few of the more rules versed players. What this comes out like on the character sheet is that some X-men come in at 200-300 points and some approach 1,000 points. It is all a matter of getting the build right rather than playing with the points when you run a game like that.... It might be fun to model more games like that?

[Sean Waters]

Re: What's with all the points

 

Even now I'll build a character, then add up the points and find I've still got 100 to go. So I'll have 120 pd, shall I? I mean it's got to go somewhere.

 

My understanding of the points inflation was simply that a lot of games had been going long enough that very high point characters were common in both the general gaming community and in published books and scenarios, so a higher starting point was appropriate.

 

Mind you a cynic might think that it was all just a way to get people to think the game was now churning out a superer sort of super. I'm sure none of you fell for that one.

[pinecone]

Re: What's with all the points

 

My impression is that at 250 Skill intensive chars got the shaft, and so seldom were ever seen...at 350 a skill maven becomes totally viable...the hope is that the other more blessed concepts (like say Bricks) will add in some skills instead of boosting power.

 

The second reason is that at 250 framework mastery was a high art. at 350 it's now reasonable to rein in that sort of rules manipulation. And that helps narrow the gap between Hero mavens and "new guys", and that helps the game....

[gojira]

Re: What's with all the points

 

Welcome Valkyrie... er, JPicasso!

 

Like you I'm a returning 3rd. edition player. I was also shocked at the points starting superheroes get. Gamers nowadays have gone soft, I tell you!

 

Back when I was playing Champions, we only got 250 points and we were happy to get that. There were starving children in Africa who didn't get any character points at all, so we weren't complaining, no sir, not us. Plus, we had to walk uphill in the snow to get to the game store. Both ways.

 

 

I'm pretty much down with Doc Democracy. Characters have got more expressive these days. There's more skills and background skills and Perks and Talents to buy. Gone are the days when 3 points in City Knowledge and 2 points in Professional Skill: News Reporter represented a serious commitment to roleplaying. New characters should probably have at least around 20 to 30 points in non-combat skills, contacts, wealth, items and what not.

 

Likewise, comic book characters have gotten more powerful, and new players expect to be able to make starting characters closer to what they read in the comics. Fifty to eighty points is a lot of flexibility and powers that can be used to simulate all the different things a PC can do.

 

 

Also, you probably don't know this yet: END costs have been reduced. It's now Active Points divided by 10, not divided by 5 like it used to be. All powers start with a base 1/2 END cost. Plus, there's no repeated halving to get to 0 END. It's a +1/4 Advantage to halve the base END cost, and +1/2 to get to 0 END.

 

Talk about gamers wimping out!!

[Lucius]

Re: What's with all the points

 

There was a thread on this not long ago called, I think, Point Inflation.

 

There are probably several factors involved. I think the expectation of spending more on background skills and on what they call "perks" really is a major factor.

 

Of course, anyone can run a game at any point level they choose; the last Fantasy game I played in was 50 base pts and up to 50 disads if I remember correctly, and I was able to express my character concept in that (mind you, he only had DEX 14 and some weapon familiarities in terms of combat ability, but the concept didn't include being able to wrestle bears or take on two or more armed bandits and escape unscathed.) I've also posted a character who was built on ZERO pts plus disads. And he HAD spent points on Contacts and Professional Skills.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Did the palindromedary eat my tagline?

[Checkmate]

Re: What's with all the points

 

If you look at a bunch of these posts it says exactly what I was saying:

Another reason not exactly mentioned so far is that 350 points for Supers helps differentiate them from Heroic characters. Some Heroic characters might cost 150-200+ pts to build but when factoring in the 'free' equipment they get to carry they can outclass many 250 pt supers. To be truly Super in a world with semi-realistic agents the average Superhero needs to be at least as good as a top 'normal' agent imho.

Why are these so close? Because people thought a normal should have a 6 SPD, that meant anyone better than a normal had to have a 7 SPD. Again it was the stat inflation that cause the problem not the lack of points.

Most novel, comic, movie or other media central characters tend to hedge out into the upper echelon of points (500+ points).

I really disagree with this statement. The only reason people in movies and comics would seem to need 500+ points is because of again stat inflation. People have set the benchmark too high. People have said that a highly trained normal human HAS to have AT LEAST a 23 DEX and 6 SPD to be effective. That's where the mark is set, so people go from there. A highly trained NORMAL HUMAN has a 6 SPD, so someone in a movie that moves faster than a normal human must have a 7 SPD. This is why people think it takes 500 points to make anyone effective.

 

Let's reset the benchmarks a bit and see what happens: Joe Normal that works out 20 minutes a day has an 8 STR, 8 DEX and 2 SPD. A typical Navy SEAL has a 11 STR, 13 DEX, 3 SPD. Not enough you say? Well let's take a look shall we: 11 STR, He's 1.5x as strong as Joe Normal. His is twice as dexterous and Joe Normal and his reaction time is 50% better than Joe Normal.

Now lets look at a Hollywood star:

15 STR, at this level he's 3x as strong as Joe Normal, and in a pinch, can throw a motorcycle. At an 18 DEX he's twice as fast as a Navy SEAL and 4x as fast as Joe Normal. At a 4 SPD he's reaction time is 100% better than Joe Normal.

 

I'd say having someone 3x as strong, 4x as fast, and a reaction time twice as good as a fit normal person accurately descibes a Hollywood movie.

My impression is that at 250 Skill intensive chars got the shaft, and so seldom were ever seen...

Again they "got the shaft" because of stat inflation. They couldn't afford the 23 DEX, 6 SPD that people were giving to a normal security guard, and suffered as a result. If the stats were brought down to a more reasonable level, things would have worked out.

Likewise, comic book characters have gotten more powerful, and new players expect to be able to make starting characters closer to what they read in the comics. Fifty to eighty points is a lot of flexibility and powers that can be used to simulate all the different things a PC can do

This is one of the arguments that I do think has a lot of merit (I DO NOT believe it was part of the consideration for raising the stat cap, just an unintended benefit). It seems in the comics today, supers get their powers one day, the next day they're masters of them. Gone are the days when it took Iceman 30 issues to realize he could cover himself with ice instead of snow, or it taking Mr. Fantastic years to realize he could stretch parts of his face to make him look completely different.

[zornwil]

Re: What's with all the points

 

I have never seen "a normal security guard" or the like being given 23 DEX and/or 6 SPD. Just stating my experience.

 

PS - I do think that the bump to 350 was in part a specific response to people wanting more powerful supers such as they see in today's comics, and many players' expectations to START playing Spiderman as he appeared by 1975 (for example) or Superman as he appeared by 1945 (again, for example) as opposed to those same characters in 1963 and 1938 (or whatever years, you get the idea I hope) and work their way up.

[zornwil]

Re: What's with all the points

 

And to expand on another point, 4th Edition really set the stage for skill and perk differentiation. It begged for more detail in character building, and removed big vague lump skills (actually, maybe 3rd did that, I'd have to look but am too lazy at the moment) such as "Detective Works" and began replacing them with several discreet skills. This pushed players more and more towards very detailed builds with attempts to stat everything out. This also begged, dramatically, attention to the "are you really roleplaying if you don't buy a bunch of background and other real-world useful skills?" versus "background and other real-world useful skills are color (or otherwise not so detailed a level of being points-driven) and don't need extensive statting" argument, provoking many to feel a sheet with 90% combat stuff was no longer a good thing.

 

4th did not give more points, though, while clearly players who stat every detail out (compared to how it had been done in earlier days) began losing out to those who did not, at least by some perceptions, and this was happening with single play groups, not just a matter of one play group doing it one way and being happy while another play group does its own thing and is happy.

 

So in 5th more points have been added, I believe, in some part to address this, as mentioned above in order to support more background and perk and similar stuff.

[Psylint]

Re: What's with all the points

 

I, like you am returning from the fond olden days of 250 and love it. There does seem to be some Stat inflation. I am regularly seeing Bricks with Speed 6, Martial Artists with 20 pd, etc. Sometimes you even see Pyrokinetics with 60 Strength.

 

And there is a lot of points to be paid on skills, one of my favorite 200 pt. characters has 70 pts. in skills 32 just on sciences. I'll admit, if the campaign had been appropriate, I could have easily spent another 30 points on Contacts and Perqs (character was a former Navy Aviator and NASA astronaught, who's flight to Mars was abruptly cancelled when they showed up in orbit) old war and Navy buddies, a military flight officer pension (wealth), more points for the lab. My problem with it is that yeah he's really, really smart and fast on his feet and really fit for an old guy (Normal Characteristic Maxima), but by buying all these sciences and have a reasonably high INT, I get a 14- in almost all of the hard sciences including Quantum Mechanics, when what I really wanted was a guy who is a preeminent Asto-physicist, and kinda Bachelor of Science level with the rest of it. Not an option really with a 3 pt. skill.

 

The other problem is with your average young adult who wakes up one day and warps Newton's Laws (e.g. Kinetic), what perqs or contacts or skills would such a character have? He still needs disadvantages, Social Lim. Legal Minor, maybe a DNPC in the name of Mom, a Secret ID, Psych. Lim's to represent his immaturity, all seem appropriate to me.

 

100+150 forced you to make a tight build, most of the time. You were generally really good at one or two things, really vulnerable to one or two things and made do with the rest. A generalist was a true Jack of All Trades master of none. Seemed like a fair trade off. Now, with the "defense is always massively cheaper" you end up forcing folks to be at the cap to effect another Super. And because defenses are so cheap, everyone can have mental defense, power defense, flash defense, and resistant pd/ed.

 

Bummer really.

[ghost-angel]

Re: What's with all the points

 

When I moved up to 5th from 4th I found I did a few things:

 

Diversified my powers a bit, but the point levels didn't increase much more than 20-50.

 

My Skills, Perks and Talents on the other hand exploded. Easily taking 40+ Points between the three of the extra 100.

 

Characteristics, I put them where I wanted them I found, and not always on point breaks (though that's still common practice in most cases). But in 5th I'm more willing to simply sink more points into Characteristics than I was under 4th. Instead of 70pts I usually get around 100pts in that section.

 

It just allows, for me, a more interesting an full character. I get to fullfill my vision of the character better under the higher point ceiling of 5th edition.

[Robyn]

Re: What's with all the points

 

I' date=' like you am returning from the fond olden days of 250 and love it. There does seem to be some Stat inflation. I am regularly seeing Bricks with Speed 6, Martial Artists with 20 pd, etc. Sometimes you even see Pyrokinetics with 60 Strength.[/quote']

 

Point of curiosity - are you seeing these characters in official HERO products, or do your players bring them to you?

[zornwil]

Re: What's with all the points

 

I was trying to find my old posts when I was bemoaning the 250 to 350 change, but I couldn't. I found posts from late '03 and '04 indicating by then I had already changed my mind and felt 350 was okay. I wanted to go back and remind myself of my objections; I may have posted those on the champs-l listserv, it was a while back. But, anyway, while I did have objections to the change for reasons related to inflation, where the sweet spot is to grow a character from, and concerns over too-granular builds, as I recall, I decided that the 350, from the posts I saw from newer members over time, was making people more comfortable they could play the supers they wanted from the comic book, and this is about fun so I changed my mind for that. Also, I realized that it doesn't mean all that much ultimately - inflation does tend to occur regardless (at least until systems get heavy rewrites, and 5th was not that) and it's apparent it's not doing any major harm from what I can see, my own earlier fears not seeing substantial realization.

[Eosin]

Re: What's with all the points

 

I really disagree with this statement. The only reason people in movies and comics would seem to need 500+ points is because of again stat inflation. People have set the benchmark too high. People have said that a highly trained normal human HAS to have AT LEAST a 23 DEX and 6 SPD to be effective. That's where the mark is set, so people go from there. A highly trained NORMAL HUMAN has a 6 SPD, so someone in a movie that moves faster than a normal human must have a 7 SPD. This is why people think it takes 500 points to make anyone effective.

 

Taking a gander at my fantasy characters (that are viewable to public scrutiny) puts a damper on this from where I (as in me personally) am coming from...

 

There are dozens of characters but I picked four who are "stars" - Druss, Waylander, Aragorn, and Boromir. The points in stats average around a measly 120-130 character points out of 500-600 point totals.

 

Again, going back to the X-men that we use shows your assumption to be incorrect (again, at least where I am coming from). Take a look through the X-men and you note that the average SPD and DEX fall far short of your 6 & 23. In fact, our X-men generally start with a idea that these are all highly trained normals running anywhere from a 15/3 for Strongman upto a 28/6 for Beast.

 

Our version of Capt America (also on the site) has a 7 SPD and 25 Dex but again totals in at over 800 points. Our key to building characters is to design for effect rather than points. They should mimic what the character can do in media and that means some characters are going to have some suprizingly expensive dinks such as Beast spending 150 points on languages. It also means that as fast and deadly as the Beast may be, he isn't a match for Captain America in a stand up fight - he is more agile and can cover more ground but when the rubber meets the pavement and they are down to hand to hand Cappy has the edge and will take 4 of 5 match ups.

 

There isn't a right way or a wrong way to build characters in the Hero System. No amount of points is "too many" nor "too little," it all boils down to genre, expectations, and the design of the surrounding setting. We play zombie games at 0/25 points and have a blast running redneck farmers but we can also bust out the 800 point version of Cappy and his amazing friends and run a game just as fun battling Hydra.

 

If you like running games where every movie star or comic book character needs to be 250 points, bully for you. It doesn't cause any grief at my table and I hope that your games are a fun filled riot. On the other hand, if I want to build a 750 point Jack Bauer (with a 120 points in stats), I don't see where I need to be told that I am the unknowning victim of "stat inflation." You don't have to agree with my builds and you can think that they are too [insert just about anything here] for your games but that just means that they aren't right for you. There is no "grand concensus" of a unified power structure* for Hero players. One mans 25 Strength titan is another mans scrawny weakling.

 

*I'd kinda like to see a unified power structure imposed on Herodom. A great big list of hundreds of popular characters from various genres, noting where each character falls in respect to the various stats. Then all of our builds would be equally usable in all games across genres. But that statement is enough to make many howl like rabid dogs and claw their eyes out.

[Mike W]

Re: What's with all the points

 

I think that the big difference between 250 and 350 comes in the way you can flesh the character out. If the GM has firm control, the point caps on powers and such are the same, but you can add a couple more of the "extra" powers(for example, enhanced senses) to round the character's abilities out more. It also gives you room for more skills and perks. In 4th, we often had so much trouble rounding out the skills beyond a bare minimum 6 or 7 that we basically upped the starting characters to 275 and slapped on a requirement that the character spend at least 40 points on skills and perks, just so the characters would be more well rounded.

 

I would also suspect that it is a reflection of the change in the comics themselves. Characters are more powerful, both beginning characters and more experienced ones have increased a lot in power. You need the extra points to keep up. Just compare, let's say, Iron Man and Steel when they first started. Iron Man had a suit with armor, a basic energy blast, and some enhanced STR(maybe 40). Skill wise, he was a playboy with a couple of technical skills(you really only needed mechanics, electronics and inventor to build the original Iron Man armor). When Steel came around, the power level was much higher. The guy started as a replacement for Superman and while he wasn't as powerful as Supes, his suit probably put him on par with the Iron Man of the time(whose armor, of course, was much more powerful than the original). Steel also had a far more sophisticated suit that required a lot more skills to build and maintain. 250 point champs characters felt like Silver Age heroes out of the 60s or maybe 70s. They were competent but beginners were almost always in need of developing their powers to flesh out what they could do and get the most out of it. Characters of the 1990s often burst onto the scene with fully developed power sets, as if they had been developing and practicing somewhere before getting turned loose on an unsuspecting world. That requires more points, hence the extra 100.

[Robyn]

Re: What's with all the points

 

I was trying to find my old posts when I was bemoaning the 250 to 350 change' date=' but I couldn't.[/quote']

 

Couldn't have anything to do with the effort of trying to sift through over 10,000 posts, could it?

[Guest TheUnknown]

Re: What's with all the points

 

If you look at a bunch of these posts it says exactly what I was saying:

 

Why are these so close? Because people thought a normal should have a 6 SPD, that meant anyone better than a normal had to have a 7 SPD. Again it was the stat inflation that cause the problem not the lack of points.

 

I really disagree with this statement. The only reason people in movies and comics would seem to need 500+ points is because of again stat inflation. People have set the benchmark too high. People have said that a highly trained normal human HAS to have AT LEAST a 23 DEX and 6 SPD to be effective. That's where the mark is set, so people go from there. A highly trained NORMAL HUMAN has a 6 SPD, so someone in a movie that moves faster than a normal human must have a 7 SPD. This is why people think it takes 500 points to make anyone effective.

 

Let's reset the benchmarks a bit and see what happens: Joe Normal that works out 20 minutes a day has an 8 STR, 8 DEX and 2 SPD. A typical Navy SEAL has a 11 STR, 13 DEX, 3 SPD. Not enough you say? Well let's take a look shall we: 11 STR, He's 1.5x as strong as Joe Normal. His is twice as dexterous and Joe Normal and his reaction time is 50% better than Joe Normal.

Now lets look at a Hollywood star:

15 STR, at this level he's 3x as strong as Joe Normal, and in a pinch, can throw a motorcycle. At an 18 DEX he's twice as fast as a Navy SEAL and 4x as fast as Joe Normal. At a 4 SPD he's reaction time is 100% better than Joe Normal.

 

I'd say having someone 3x as strong, 4x as fast, and a reaction time twice as good as a fit normal person accurately descibes a Hollywood movie.

 

Again they "got the shaft" because of stat inflation. They couldn't afford the 23 DEX, 6 SPD that people were giving to a normal security guard, and suffered as a result. If the stats were brought down to a more reasonable level, things would have worked out.

 

This is one of the arguments that I do think has a lot of merit (I DO NOT believe it was part of the consideration for raising the stat cap, just an unintended benefit). It seems in the comics today, supers get their powers one day, the next day they're masters of them. Gone are the days when it took Iceman 30 issues to realize he could cover himself with ice instead of snow, or it taking Mr. Fantastic years to realize he could stretch parts of his face to make him look completely different.

 

The seal is not 2x more dexterous than joe 8 gives 3 CV and 11 Gives 4 CV to close for confort in a fight but hey the great part about hero system is perspective so have at it what works in your world may not work for mine and vice versa!

[JPicasso]

Re: What's with all the points

 

Well, I'm a little embarrassed. While I DO have 3rd edition rules, it's apparent that we used my copy of 4th edition rules to play the majority of my characters. I hadn't dug down deep enough into that dusty box of RPG games that has survived three moves and my wife's rolling eyes.

 

Also, I'm noticing that most of my characters are 50 active points in most of their powers, and yes, about 10-15 pts in skills if you don't count combat levels.

 

I do know we played with a lot of "tweakers" (to be polite) so I'm thinking 350 points would have been too much trouble for most of us to contnrol when we GM'd. I do like the idea of requireing an amount of points to be spent on skills to round out the characters to avoid 350 pts from being abused.

 

Anyways, I think I'll still stick to 250 pts for a while, lower-powered supers tend to make for more fun games, for me anyways.

 

Happy Villian stomping in 2007!

[Checkmate]

Re: What's with all the points

 

The seal is not 2x more dexterous than joe 8 gives 3 CV and 11 Gives 4 CV to close for confort in a fight but hey the great part about hero system is perspective so have at it what works in your world may not work for mine and vice versa!

Actually he is. Every 5points is twice as effective. 10 is twice as much a 5, 15 is twice as much as 10 and 20 is twice as much a 15, etc.

 

In everyone's attempt to discredit my post, you've forgotten what the original topic is about: Why is it 350 instead 250. The simple reason (and most of you have actually proven it) is stat inflation.

 

Eosin,

The reason you think Cap needs a 7 SPD to simulate the comics is because of the level you've put everone else. You've given Marvel Girl a 4 SPD, in my world, you've just made Marvel Girl as fast as Bruce Lee. I can give Cap a 4 SPD and simulate what he does in the comics just as well as you. I don't see any reason for you to get defensive, we all live in our own campaign world if it works for you great. I'm explaining why there was an increase is points from 250 to 350. My system, 350 points isn't needed, you disagree great, I won't and am not trying to convince anyone my way is better, or your way is wrong. I have NEVER said it was, and is in fact the way the majority of people play. I'm just trying to answer the question in the original post.

[Shaft]

Re: What's with all the points

 

I'm inclined to agree with you on the lamenting of stat inflation, Checkmate.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52448

 

However, I think 350 pts is fair if you are charging for contacts/other perks. Also, skills have been expanded, and I find that even my non "skills expert" character tend to want a lot of skills.