Richest Man in the World Disease

[Balabanto]

Hi! I'm the Brawling Balabanto himself, so let's get straight to the point of this thread.

 

Does your world suffer from "Richest Man in the World" disease? Does every single one of your PC's buy the perk "Wealth?"

 

I am having a great deal of trouble regulating this. Powered Armor characters and major villains need this stuff for their concepts. And if you have too many powered armor characters, they shouldnt' ALL be able to afford those new powers they want their armor to have.

 

Wealthy Dilettante is too popular as a conception. I'm starting to just say no to people, but it's getting stupid as my game moves on.

 

How do you control this without giving people the finger? I've tried explaining this to my players and they don't buy it. They all have to be stupid ass broken wealthy billionaires. I remember when 10 points of wealth was enough.

 

What's going on here?

[Kevin Schultz]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

Wish fulfillment - being wealthy is a nice fantasy. I'd say let 'em have it, if they want it. However - does wealth, in your games, offer more game mechanic benefits that it should? If it does, then it may be an issue of the players simply optimizing their characters.

[David Blue]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

Hi! I'm the Brawling Balabanto himself, so let's get straight to the point of this thread.

 

Does your world suffer from "Richest Man in the World" disease? Does every single one of your PC's buy the perk "Wealth?"

In a game I'm enjoying a lot, Wealth is very common, and I'm playing one of the characters who did not buy it at first and soon will, so that's the trend.

 

I am having a great deal of trouble regulating this. Powered Armor characters and major villains need this stuff for their concepts. And if you have too many powered armor characters' date=' they shouldnt' ALL be able to afford those new powers they want their armor to have.[/quote']It's not just the power armored people, it's the spandex crowd too.

 

Q. How do you have a swing-line, and why are the bracers that fire your lines so hard that you can use them as the "bullets and bracelets" special effect for your missile deflection?

A. Well, I have Mechanics, and I built the bracers in the special materials work shop I have in the basement of my ... um, cheap apartment. OK, no, my large mansion.

Q. Why is this not Wealth?

 

Q. How do you keep these endless disguises going? How do you afford the materials, where do you store all the clothes and props you that you need, to be the hero or a thousand faces?

A. I keep my props and clothes in entire wardrobe rooms ... and I have enough money to do that.

Q. Why is this not Wealth?

 

Q. Do all these identities drive the exact same car?

A. No, different vehicles that would be in character for them, and...

Q. Why is this not Wealth?

 

Q. I'm delighted you took a wide range of non-combat skills, as I suggested, but now: how do you maintain them all? Maintaining skills like piloting and yachting does not come cheap.

A. Well, I can easily maintain my sailing skill at the sailing club I belong to.

Q. Why is this not Wealth?

 

Q. I see you intend to increase your spandex hero's Running and Swimming to Olympic levels of prowess. How are you going to do that?

A. By hiring former Olympic level coaches privately. After I buy Wealth.

 

In future, everybody will be Wealthy. Hey, it must be the Goldilocks economy.

Wealthy Dilettante is too popular as a conception. I'm starting to just say no to people' date=' but it's getting stupid as my game moves on.[/quote']So say no if you want to. It's your game.

 

Out of curiosity though, are you letting Daredevil make spares for his brilliant billy-club in an N-space workshop that goes with the N-space gymnasium in his city apartment? Do you let Spiderman make his amazing webshooters and unlimited refils of adhesives that far surpass anything the high technology companies of the world can do, in his kitchen sink, with ingredients that seem to cost him no dollars and no cents? And so on. And if you do support all that, do your players know that you will and that they can count on your continuing to do so gladly?

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

Trojan Battlesuit

http://geekologie.com/2007/01/inventor_of_bear_suit_makes_re.php

 

 

QM

[Pariah]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

If everyone in the campaign wants to be billionaires, I say let them...but remind then that with great wealth comes great responsibility. A few examples:

 

* Hostile takeover attempts (for those with corporate wealth)

* Greedy and contentious relatives (for inherited wealth)

* Legal battles for control of the money (good for anyone)

* Constant visits from the IRS

* And, of course, Villains are always trying to steal the money in a hundred different and colorful ways

 

 

In other words, make it clear to the players that Wealth has its own problems, just like poverty does. Money really isn't free.

 

It's like an old GM of mine once said: Buy a Perk, get a Hunted thrown in at no extra charge!

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

Q. Why is this not Wealth?

 

This is basically the usual 'problem' overall -- whether or not the GM is talking up the 'real' costs of keeping yourself in webshooter fluid and Olympic-class training, or whether he's going to gloss it over as a comic-book staple. Spider-Man rarely has to worry about where he's gonna get more chemicals to concoct, Daredevil rarely has to worry whether or not he's going to be able to get his billyclubs built. These aren't problems, and they shouldn't be problems, unless the GM is deliberately increasing (or starting out high) the realism in his game.

 

The GM has to remind the PCs that the 'typical workings of your character' are 'paid for' via points; Pete paid for the webshooters, bamf, he's always got access to webshooter fluid. Otherwise, he should get 'charges difficult to acquire' to go with his -5 or -10 point disad in Wealth, because if you're making it expensive, then yeah, they ARE hard for him to acquire.

 

Wealth is a RP advantage/disadvantage; 5 points makes you a run-of-the-mill mostly-successful stockbroker in the Hamptons, 10 points puts you at damn-comfortably-well-off. 15 points puts you in the realm of the music or sports superstar, the very-successful businessman/stockbroker, and/or Bill Gates -- depending on how your GM feels like gauging your general levels of wealth. The points determine how nice your secret ID car is, how much money you have AFTER you polish the bullet dents out of your battlesuit, how frequently you go to the opera and whether or not you own your own box.

 

Nor does everything requires a high level of wealth; wealth is 'what you got after you spend it on your superheroic shtick shtuff.'

 

One of my first characters -- Freedom -- was a magnetic mutant, a mix of Magneto and Professor X, complete with 'Academy for the Gifted'. Geneticist was she, I bought a 23 INT, both PS: Geneticist and PS: CEO, KS: Stockmarket and Investments, and 15 points in wealth. Why? Because there WERE people out to get her and her kind (i.e. mutants), and money is one very powerful weapon. Checkbook diplomacy can get you many places, and buying off 'because I need the money' villians is a more effective way of dealing with them long term than just beating them up and tossing them in jail. I came up with a score of different mid-level international companies that she held controlling or sizeable interest in in addition to her genetics firm -- because that's the way she did her wealth, instead of having it all piled in one 'StarkCorp' or 'Wayne Enterprises' basket. And she owned box/season seats at every major entertainment venue in a hundred mile radius, got invited to every high society function out there, and had charities knocking on her door left and right.

 

In the same campaign, however, there was a Power Suit who had 0 points in wealth -- 70k/year. He MADE more, because he was a talented inventor, but all his money went into building, maintaining, and upgrading his suit. Yes, he had a warehouse lab, but no the suit wasn't kept there, and he had a moderately comfortable 3-bedroom that he still had mortgage payments on, because though frankly he could have paid that thing off within six weeks, that would have been six months of non-maintenance on his suit. Which wasn't worth it, to him.

 

Also in the same campaign was a guy who had Luck as an unconscious power -- something like 8-10d6. And Gambling. And the casinos in Vegas still didn't kick him out, because what he made off the casino, he spent AT the casino, and didn't mind that they overcharged him outrageously on everything -- he had the 'easy come, easy go' philosophy of life. Wealth? 2 points, just to indicate how much he 'took away' from the casinos; hell, he practically lived in 'em.

 

The perk is just that, a perk, meaning to indicate how well your life-outside-of-superheroics is lived. Power Armor Guy doesn't need 15 points in it, but it's somewhat presumed that he does. Clarify the options with your PCs. That olympic gymnast (or rather, his coach) may just be honored to teach the Ineffable Zongo on the sly, just to know that he was the one the Ineffable Zongo came to in order to enhance his already superior crime-fighting techniques. It doesn't take Wealth -- just an understanding between the GM and the players.

 

Pariah also came up with several particularly fun things -- all the ways Wealth gets to be 'taken away'. It usually isn't, of course, or at least not permanently, but Tony Stark had to eat ramen. Kingpin was a bum sleeping in subway cars. If your player doesn't want to face those things, you might consider a little surcharge on their wealth -- 'Difficult to Dispel' as an advantage comes to mind. 'You're taking away GeneTech? I'll fight you tooth and nail, but you'll notice that my quality of living isn't going to go downhill, because I still own Monagahela Ironworks in Pittsburgh, Valkyrie Shipping in Sweden, and Qu Chin Ping Dok Plastic Works in Taiwan!!' 'Immunity to normal GM powers' comes only at a cost.

[Vondy]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

If the character has strong motivations and is well designed I don't sweat it. In fact, the required package for my freedom patrol game included 2 points of wealth defined as "very well paid." Sometimes it just makes things easier (insofar as it doesn't become a crutch). For instance: there's no question about whether or not the characters can afford to go globetrotting, afford an exclusive club, or dress correctly / arrive in a proper conveyance when the plot demands it. On the other hand, a power-armor character might do well with a contact rather than wealth. He might work for the designer of the suit, or be a member of a group of college science grads who built the thing in their spare time using stuff they "borrowed" from on campus government research grants.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

We only wind up with one character with any wealth, and the 15 point level is pretty damned rare. Most people consider that those 15 point could be better spent on Multipower slots or Combat Levels.

 

Since Champions is 'pay for play', all the Wealth really does is give you a built-in excuse for spending XP on bases, vehicles, and gadgets. You didn't have to build it, or beg for it, or borrow it, or work for a government team to have your stuff. You just freakin' bought it.

[BcAugust]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

Hmm, and my group is pretty much at the opposite end. We've had two characters in the Sentinels group buy Wealth(Sun god and Mutant son of Franklin Stone), one in Aegis(Peregrine), and one in my current Ancient campaign(Prince).

 

Note none of the above are my characters, who for various reasons didn't have Wealth. The question is... do you treat people without Wealth as destitute? That will get most people buying it just to avoid the hassles you might be dumping on them, or like David said, giving too much to the Wealthy people.

[nexus]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

I've had very few characters buy Wealth but most get very high Com. Its rare to see a characters with less than 16, ususally more 18-20+. Its common in Seeds of Change extreme beauty has become an unoffical sign of possessing powers.

[Balabanto]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

The problem is, it's a question of justification. Most people don't have Nspace gymnasiums in their home in legacies, most characters belong to a superhero team, and they have a centralized headquarters where they train, etc.

 

The other issue is that if all of the supers have all of the money, eventually all of the normals are going to get pissed off.

 

The issue is that most superheroes are supposed to live lives as ORDINARY men, except where wealth is a necessary concept point. Tony Stark is rich and he's Iron Man because it's a valuble moral lesson. He learned what he COULD be doing with his money instead of making weapons for third world countries.

 

I just have huge understanding issues with why people need to be rich so badly.

 

You're right, enforcing mo money, mo' problems is one way of handling that, but then that's all the game is ever about.

[Powerhouse]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

Wealth can be a nice perk to free up characters for more adventuring or define their character. Of the founding Silver Knights, two had the wealth perk:

 

Titan (filthy rich as a CEO/Inventor/African Prince): basically to justify all the tech in his armor as well as finance the team.

 

Lady Silver (Wealthy at 5 pt level): she has a significant inheritance from a major drug company but much of it is tied up in stock and a corporate battle with her corrupt granduncle. Even so, she's probably worth millions but much of that is in massive charity funds. What's left is enough to afford her the time and privacy to pursue her magic and have a small sanctum in a modest penthouse (is that an oxymoron?).

 

Speed Demon, who joined later, has the Wealthy Perk at 5 pt level since he's a very successful B-level actor (think Van Damme or Segal) although he is popular more for his powers than his acting.

[Kirby]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

Does your world suffer from "Richest Man in the World" disease? Does every single one of your PC's buy the perk "Wealth?"

 

...

 

What's going on here?

Is it the Wealth perk in general, or is it the upper end (10-15 points) that you're having trouble with?

[BcAugust]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

 

I just have huge understanding issues with why people need to be rich so badly.

 

You're right, enforcing mo money, mo' problems is one way of handling that, but then that's all the game is ever about.

 

You know, it half sounds like your players and you have a basic disconnect. I mean, do they all have reasons to have wealth? Was it just that you made it make more sense for them in game to? Or wasn't really watching what they were spending on it, then found it effected your games more then you thought?

 

Would there be a problem with sitting down with your group and saying "Guys, I'm not enjoying having everyone being super rich. How can we change this?"

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

In one campaign I ran, there were 5-6 PCs, depending on who could show up. one of the characters was a wealthy industrialist (15 pts wealth), another was potentially as rich, but he had an array of expensive toys (super vehicles, base etc.) and only had 5 points of wealth to represent what was left over after he maintained the "good stuff". All the rest but one were "Default level" wealth (0 points). The last one was completely destitute. He was also an animal (no civil rights) and the team's mascot, so it's not like he slept in the gutter and ate out of garbage cans. At least not once he suckered, Errr... joined the Super Team.

[OzMike]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

In the comics, both Green Arrow and The Flash (Wally West) went from wealthy to not so wealthy. Why not do it to the group? Make it some sort of overarching plot about a Luthor-type villain buying up various high tech companies...

 

Or have Mechanon crash the international monetary exchange/World Bank.

 

Let them spend the points on contacts (to get gear on a favour for gear basis) and skills (to make gear) or even combat skill levels instead, and then give them the opportunity to buy wealth again later if YOU wish.

[Kirby]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

Would there be a problem with sitting down with your group and saying "Guys' date=' I'm not enjoying having everyone being super rich. How can we change this?"[/quote']Something that I've done in my FtF games (haven't yet had to do it in online games) is that 1 PC gets to have 15 points of wealth, no more. In fact, I say "there can be only one" from the 11pt up. Just like with powers or a theme, Wealth may be one's schtick, so I don't let everyone have the upper ends to it. YMMV.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

I actually LIKE wealthy characters but my players tend to start small and work up to it during their play time so that's different. Most of the long running characters tend to end up with some wealth but rarely do characters start out wealthy. I think that works well. I do almost always have a wealthy patron of some sort availible so I don't have to worry about travel finances etc. unless I want to.

[input.jack]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

The problem is' date=' it's a question of justification. Most people don't have Nspace gymnasiums in their home in legacies, most characters belong to a superhero team, and they have a centralized headquarters where they train, etc.[/quote']

 

True. However, "Wealth" is what your character has to spend AFTER the Superhero Stuff you spent character points on. So even a 0 Wealth character -could- have an "N-Space" Gym, if it was within their concept. (Obviously, if that kind of technology doesnt exist in your game, then it isnt in -anyones- concept)

 

 

 

The other issue is that if all of the supers have all of the money' date=' eventually all of the normals are going to get pissed off. .[/quote']

 

Er....why? Why would "all of the normals" get "pissed off"? Does the average guy on the street know how much money Batman has? I seriously doubt it. Do people resent Reed Richards for his wealth? Not that Ive seen.

 

In several of the campaigns Im in, there are rich or even mega-rich characters, working alongside not-so-rich or even low-income characters. And it rarely matters that much. One of my PCs has Wealth because of her history the lead singer for a popular band (that has since broken up). It has nothing to do with her powers or back-story, but it was WHO I wanted her to be. Would you have put the kibosh on that in your game?

 

If so, why?

 

I guess what Im saying is, at the end of the day, what possible difference does it make if your PCs are wealthy or not? Do they work as a team? Do they fight injustice and protect their city? Then who CARES how much money they have in the bank?

 

The issue is that most superheroes are supposed to live lives as ORDINARY men' date=' except where wealth is a necessary concept point. Tony Stark is rich and he's Iron Man because it's a valuble moral lesson. He learned what he COULD be doing with his money instead of making weapons for third world countries. [/quote']

 

Quite right. In Iron Man's specific case. But that doesnt explain Doc Savage, Tarzan, The Shadow, Doctor Strange, the Fantastic Four, Black Panther, Captain Britain, Professor X, Namor, Thor, Batman, Green Arrow (originally), Doctor Fate, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and a host of others who can and do have access to vast sums of money when they want or need it.

 

I just have huge understanding issues with why people need to be rich so badly.

 

Take a look at how youve been running the game. Do characters without Wealth often find themselves unable to accomplish their goals because they cant afford to? ("We would have tried to save Newark, but we could only afford to take the bus, and we got there too late"). Do characters who have paid for resources and gadgets with Character points get hassled about how theyre going to maintain them? Do your Players understand that if a PC regularly makes $15,000, but is conceptually spending $14,000 a month on upkeep and maintainence, that it means the character's "Wealth" level is calculated from the $1,000 a month left over?

 

Not everyone with levels of Wealth needs to have box seats at the Opera, or ride around in limousines. And even if they do, that provides -you- with ready-made NPCs. How many times has Alfred saved Batman's skin? What wouldnt Batman do to rescue Alfred if he were in trouble?

 

Honestly, I think youre making waaaaaay too big a deal over this.

 

You're right' date=' enforcing mo money, mo' problems is one way of handling that, but then that's all the game is ever about.[/quote']

 

I agree that this doesnt sound like it would be all that much fun. Especially if the Player took Wealth as a means of living better vicariously. Occasional money troubles might be Ok, but if its a constant thing, itll sour people on the game.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

If a player pays 15 points for something, he should get something out of it, even if it's just a quick and easy excuse for where he dropped other points on his Koalamobile.

 

Like anything, though, it can be a plot hook. Long ago, I once had a character who had lots of Wealth via his parents. A mutant villain team attacked them, then one of the villains (in his secret ID) approached the family as a security consultant ... which gave him the inside track on all their money.

 

And yes, they should be able to justify it somehow, but that pretty much goes without saying. If it just so happens that everybody in the group has 15 points of Wealth, that's actually more or less the same as one character having 15 points of Wealth. It's essentially infinite money, and it doesn't make a difference if one or four people have infinite money.

[Victim]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

The problem is, it's a question of justification. Most people don't have Nspace gymnasiums in their home in legacies, most characters belong to a superhero team, and they have a centralized headquarters where they train, etc.

 

Yes, and superheroes are generally thus before joining a super team and having a headquarters with its fancy stuff. Ergo, they probably had their gadgets and elite physical skills (for some characters) before joining a team and need some other reason to have them.

 

Plus some people might expect highly competent, in demand persons to be highly paid in one way or another. In some settings, most supers are going to fall into that category.

 

I am having a great deal of trouble regulating this. Powered Armor characters and major villains need this stuff for their concepts. And if you have too many powered armor characters, they shouldnt' ALL be able to afford those new powers they want their armor to have.

 

Why? More powered armor characters means more design refinements and better economies of scale. Plus mechanically, there's no need for money for them to upgrade their powers anyway. If you are requiring them to have money, then perhaps that's why wealth is increasingly common.

 

Similarly, being independently wealthy means that conflicts between work and superheroing are less of an issue. If people are buying wealth, they might be doing so to not have to deal with those problems.

[Vondy]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

The player took wealth as a perk, not wealth as a disadvantage. Coming up with ways to turn perks into disadvantages is not within the spirit of the rules, or good faith. Yes, you can sometimes use them for plot hooks, but it should be a rare thing. If they paid points for it then it should almost always work in their favor. If you don't want it to - don't let them buy it.

[archermoo]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

I guess I don't understand the problem. Is it that you don't think they are being creative enough in their character design?

[Hermit]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

Something that I've done in my FtF games (haven't yet had to do it in online games) is that 1 PC gets to have 15 points of wealth' date=' no more. In fact, I say "there can be only one" from the 11pt up. Just like with powers or a theme, Wealth may be one's schtick, so I don't let everyone have the upper ends to it. YMMV.[/quote']

 

Not to swell Kirby's head or anything, but I think this is a great idea

[David Johnston]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

If all my players wanted to be rich, then I'd treat it the same way as if they all wanted to be mutants or aliens. I'd say "Keen. A unified campaign theme". Even if it was just a majority, I'd try to suggest to the remainder that they consider being the "bodyguard/assistant" of one of the billionaires, or perhaps the love interest of one of them.