Richest Man in the World Disease

[Kirby]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

Not to swell Kirby's head or anything' date=' but I think this is a great idea [/quote']Thank you, thank you. I'll be here all week. If you don't want to worry about my head swelling, you could always swell my rep. Yes, a cheap, tacky shameless plug/plea.

 

What? The economy is not a zero sum game' date=' how would a handful of rich supers monopolize wealth in your campaign world?[/quote']I'm thinking that since Balabanto hasn't responded to this thread since the 5th, but has posted elsewhere, that either 1) he's realized this isn't as big an issue as he thought, but is too steamed that he's not on the "winning side" (though really, it's not like winning/losing as much as helping), 2) he's in denial and thinks we're all off our rockers for not seeing it his way, or 3) something else.

 

I'm pretty sure it's one of those three.

[Balabanto]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

Actually, no, that's not it. You guys just have a different view of what goes on Character Sheets and why it goes there.

 

Let's look at the Champions Universe and their powered armor character, Defender.

 

In my world, this character doesn't have the skills necessary to justify itself. Defender lacks the appropriate science skills to build his powered armor, but has the money to do so.

 

Likewise, the technological characters who have armored suits or build gadgets need the money to do so.

 

An economy is NOT a zero sum game. You assume (Wrongly) that an economy is about economics in a superhero game. Remember when I posted that thread about lameness and used Batman as an example?

 

What did the GM say?

 

He said "Lex Luthor and Bruce Wayne can't both be the richest man in the world."

 

I've run the same world with multiple groups for 20 years. You have to be fair to everyone. And the problem is not that the economy is a zero sum game. The problem is that people's EGOES are NOT a zero sum game, and that CHAMPIONS is not a zero sum game either. If you can't justify the wealth, and/or the wealth is necessary to your concept, then you should consider spending your points in some other manner.

 

If you have 20+ characters who have unlimited money (15 points), that money had to come from somewhere. Money is one of those things that helps you JUSTIFY a concept. Not something you just put on your sheet because you'd like it to be there.

 

PLUS, if you effectively have unlimited wealth, and all the other tech characters have unlimited wealth too, then how are all of them getting the things they need? Someone's gonna lose. And who is it that will lose?

 

Wealth is not only something that you just pay for. It justifies the acquiring of certain types of powers and abilities through technology that you can't normally acquire.

 

That's the problem. People are spending points on Wealth 15 when they should have other skills that they need to justify their concept and it's existence, and buying Wealth 5.

[RPMiller]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

I always thought that wealth indicated you had money after expenses. So sure you can have a powered armor super, but not live in a mansion since you spend all your extra money on the suit.

 

Wealth is for characters that want to have an additional power called toys, or an inexpensive mundane VPP.

[Kirby]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

Actually' date=' no, that's not it.[/quote']

Hmm, I was pretty sure #3 would fit the bill.

 

However, reading your response, it seems to me that this "RMitWD" is a pain to you because it's something you created. "Lemme 'splain":

If you can't justify the wealth' date=' and/or the wealth is necessary to your concept, then you should consider spending your points in some other manner.[/quote']

I don't necessarily buy this. "Necessary to your concept" could be anything. You're rich and bored. You're rich and want to give back to society. You're rich because you worked for it, then you became a hero after being exposed to radiation. You're rich because you were born into it. You're rich because you're a scientist/tinkerer who's discovered alien technology, reverse engineered it, sold it to the military and decided to keep the best battlesuit (the one they didn't want to pay for) for yourself. Et cetera, et cetera.

 

If you have 20+ characters who have unlimited money (15 points)' date=' that money had to come from somewhere. Money is one of those things that helps you JUSTIFY a concept. Not something you just put on your sheet because you'd like it to be there.[/quote']

You spend points for what you want. You want it? Spend points on it because you'd like it to be there.

 

Characters don't have to have a concept. They don't have to be Elemental Control guy or Multipower girl or VPP person. They can be the guy with 75% damage reduction a 5d6 NND of cosmic energy, 50" flight of the wind, mind control, and N-Ray vision from a hi-tech helmet. What's the big deal with 20+ characters with seemingly unlimited money? The planet Earth has thousands of people like that.

 

 

PLUS' date=' if you effectively have unlimited wealth, and all the other tech characters have unlimited wealth too, then how are all of them getting the things they need? Someone's gonna lose. And who is it that will lose?[/quote']

This makes no sense. Fifteen points of wealth doesn't mean you have all the money in the world, just more than you can (reasonably) spend. PC Bob can't say "I have 15 points of wealth, therefore, I buy everything in the game." It means he can have that 30 million dollar super yacht, a few $300,000 cars, a private jet, a million dollar RV and still be OK. And while PC Bob may have a a $30 million yacht, there's nothing that's stopping PC Anne from having a $75 million yacht.

 

Wealth is not only something that you just pay for. It justifies the acquiring of certain types of powers and abilities through technology that you can't normally acquire.

I think this right here is the bulls-eye of your problem. You're making this rule in your world, so people are responding to it by adapting and overcoming this -in essence- requirement you've set.

 

Defender has 10 points of wealth and Cavalier has 6 points, yet Cavalier has the better armor. The money really doesn't make a difference in getting the better equipment.

 

Dr. D., Gravitar, Istvatha V'han, Menton, Takofanes, the Warlord, and Fiacho all have 15 points of wealth, but V'hans is obviously the greatest 15 points, with Dr. Destroyer and Takofanes having more than the others. This no how wrecks any economy within the game.

 

Ultrasonique, Bluejay, Cyclone, Anklyosaur, Armadillo, Blowtorch, Captain Chronos, Herculan (an alien!), Lazer, Nebula (an alien from another galaxy!), Thunderbird could all be considered "tech characters" yet NONE of them have wealth what-so-ever.

 

That's the problem. People are spending points on Wealth 15 when they should have other skills that they need to justify their concept and it's existence' date=' and buying Wealth 5.[/quote']Along with the above, this is you imposing your perception/opinion onto your players which makes them feel like they have to do this to survive/succeed.

 

If you don't like what you've created, talk to your players about fixing it. Tell them that they can have -hold on to your hat for this- ZERO points of wealth and STILL afford to be a tech character! Yep, let it be.

 

I have a player in my campaign who has 5 points of wealth. He's a power armor character. Did he make his armor? Nope. Can he afford his armor? Nope, not really. How did he get it? His wife (DNPC) is the genius. She uses him to "field test" her equipment that she's making for her job. Would he be allowed to do the same if he didn't have wealth? Yep, and I could still keep it justified 4-color because that's genre.

 

In the San Angelo setting, Cavalier there doesn't have the ability or the wealth to fly his power armor suit. How did he get it? He's in the Air Force and is the only one with the brain wave pattern that the cybernetics in the system responds to. Neat-o.

 

Wealth need not apply because wealth is not a requirement.

[Kirby]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

Wealth is for characters that want to have an additional power called toys' date=' or an inexpensive mundane VPP. [/quote']

Repped.

[csyphrett]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

And sometimes you have to have money to get things done. That's why I spent three points of EXP to get wealth for my character.

 

The campaign is the Teen Guardians that I recap for my group. No one had any money for mundane equipment. None of their concepts allowed for money either since they are all teen heroes who mostly living at home with no jobs, no way to get financial gain, whatever. We needed some basic equipment like a television so I bought the wealth since I can transform things into jewelry and so forth with no penalty. That's paying for necessities.

 

In my opinion from your posts, you have a lot of high tech companies in operation supplying your characters with money and it seems to be a burden on you.

 

If that accessment is right, my advice is don't worry about it because it doesn't really matter. Wealth is only there to help them fix things, get places, bribe officials. It's only important as a background tool, not something that motivates adventures.

CES

[TheRealVector]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

Home run Kirby! I think you summed up the problems best. Now I got nothing to say...LOL

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

However, reading your response, it seems to me that this "RMitWD" is a pain to you because it's something you created. "Lemme 'splain":

**********************************************************

I think this right here is the bulls-eye of your problem. You're making this rule in your world, so people are responding to it by adapting and overcoming this -in essence- requirement you've set.

**********************************************************

Along with the above, this is you imposing your perception/opinion onto your players which makes them feel like they have to do this to survive/succeed.

 

This sums it up. Let your players define their characters and work with it. It sounds like the game has evolved over time. I suspect an early discussion went like:

 

Player: My character is like Iron Man - he's got a very sophisticated suit of powered armor which he designed and maintains.

 

GM: How does your character pay for all this? He has no points in Wealth, so he's just a 9 to 5'er. Where can he get the bucks to afford all this high tech equipment?

 

Over time, the players learn that many things they want in their character concept will be rejected by the GM if they don't have the wealth to support it. The players then realize that:

 

Player #1: The GM rejected my way cool techno-archer character. I'm really tired of making characters just to have the GM reject them.

 

Player #2: Lemme guess...[whiny nasal voice]"How can he afford all those high tech arrowheads. He's just a 9 to 5 worker with no real source of cash for all that gadgetry."[/whiny nasal voice] Right?

 

Player #1: Well, yeah...how

 

Player #3: Every character in every game since 1987. Just buy 15 points of wealth for everyone. It's the only way you'll ever get a character who doesn't use a trash can lid for a shield, tie a towel around his neck for a cape and wear a stock pot with eye holes for a helmet.

 

Then the GM wonders why ALL his characters have 15 points in wealth. It MUST be a problem with the players, of course.

 

The same applies to skills. If every tech character has to spend 50 points on technical skills to "justify their concept", but Magic characters can get away with KS: Magic 2 points, expect to see a lot less tech and a lot more magic. Most "strange things all my players do" can be readily explained by how they are encouraged or discouraged by the (generally unwritten, often unnoticed) rules of the campaign set by the GM.

[Balabanto]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

That's because they see this big UNLIMITED on their sheet and think they need it.

 

Like it or not, the problem is thematics, not the wealth perk. A hero is supposed to live a life as an ordinary man, most of the time. (I hate Public ID, and more and more people in my game take it, or are forced into it by circumstance)

 

And "ordinary" men are not normally fabulously, unbelievably wealthy. Apparently, a job as a reporter, a clerk, or any number of other professions are all uninteresting to them except for multimillionaire.

 

I really think this is a social class problem, where I belong to one social class and see things one way, and my players belong to a different social class and see things differently in the way that money works.

 

Every time too many people buy something up above the level that I consider reasonable, I put it on my "War of Escalation' list.

 

Primary on this list are DEX, INT, and SPD. Wealth is still only getting there.

[nexus]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

It seems like you want to enforce what you see as a genre convention and your players don't see it as one. The primary way to create that sort of effect it to make house rule retricting what you don't like. I doubt you'll be able to convince them that superheroes being wealthy is objectively wrong or out of genre.

[Vondy]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

Personally, in games where the wealth perk is available, I always take at least a few points. The 5 or 10 point level is more common than not, but I've never taken the 15 point level. I take it so I don't have to be bothered with trivial subplots I'd rather avoid (the land-lady chasing you for rent and other dubious moments of "gm inspiration,") and can make some basic things happen to further the plot. Needs to hop a quick flight for an investigation? No problem. Need proper attire and conveyance for a ritzy event? No problem. Need a lawyer? No problem. Need someone to do a records search at city hall or man the hot-line while you follow up on the juicy leads? No problem - that's what your executive assistant is for (at least, if you have a public ID...). Need to establish your cover by making a few purchases to convince informant/villain/whoever you're a high roller? No problem. Need the latest mobile phone, laptop, web-server, unmodified sports car, penthouse apartment, which don't cost points, etc? No problem.

[KA.]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

I really think this is a social class problem, where I belong to one social class and see things one way, and my players belong to a different social class and see things differently in the way that money works.

 

I have some comments on this topic, but before I make them I would really like some clarification on this point.

 

Are you from a higher social class than your players?

Are they from a higher social class than you?

How would you describe the difference in opinion as far as how money works?

 

 

Every time too many people buy something up above the level that I consider reasonable, I put it on my "War of Escalation' list.

 

Primary on this list are DEX, INT, and SPD. Wealth is still only getting there.

 

My main problem with 'escalation' has always been that I don't want all the players to end up the same.

 

Holding back on both player experience points and villain experience points seems to help.

 

If one player is always left in the dust because he is 'slow' compared to the other players and the villains, he is going to put points into speed.

If the player who was formerly 'fast' sees the 'slow' player acting as often as he does, he is going to put points into speed.

A lot of it has to do with making sure that all the players feel effective at their current level.

 

KA.

[Balabanto]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

Yes, and there's a 7-10 year generation gap for most of them too. I am older.

[Kelcyron]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

Like it or not, the problem is thematics, not the wealth perk. A hero is supposed to live a life as an ordinary man, most of the time. (I hate Public ID, and more and more people in my game take it, or are forced into it by circumstance)

 

And "ordinary" men are not normally fabulously, unbelievably wealthy. Apparently, a job as a reporter, a clerk, or any number of other professions are all uninteresting to them except for multimillionaire.

 

Except that this isn't a game about real life. It's a game about superheros, men and women with powers and abilities far beyond those of normal men, often even in their everyday lives. Clark Kent isn't "just a reporter", he's a world-famous pulitzer prize winning journalist. When people make their characters, they often want to live vicarously through their characters a little and have things that their normal lives don't include. People also frequently buy wealth so they don't have to deal with the minutae of their character's daily life (how do I justify saving the world without jepordizing my job?).

 

My last character, Slipstream, was a power-armor wearer with a lot of tech skills. He went to Miskatonic U (yes, it was superheros with Mythos) and after a lab 'accident' he suddenly UNDERSTOOD things which gave him the knowledge of the power core for his armor. He worked for a large international company for a few years and developed a "production model" version of the armor for them (about 50+50 points) and his suit was the fully functional version. He had 5 points of wealth (basic millionaire status) living off the royalties for the armor from the company, and spent his time saving the world and doing the occasional guest lectures on dimensional physics at universities.

 

Kelcyron

[Balabanto]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

Clark Kent BECAME a world spanning, award winning, pulitzer prize winning journalist.

 

He did not START with this. He had to EARN it. This is the problem. People from the younger generations come from this "pushbutton" mentality and don't want to EARN anything anymore. They want to START with it. Even though I'm from a higher social class, I do my best when I work at whatever job I do because I expect to work hard.

 

Some characters inherit money, yes, but FAR too many people choose this option. I just don't understand what's wrong with doing things the way that they're done in the comic books. The people who are most guilty of this are the people who want the most realism in the game, dislike the occasional silly plot, and want to have a game that is too character-centric when you live in a global gameworld. And you've all read my "Realism isn't real" posts.

 

I really like people to earn things in game. A lot of people just don't see it that way.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

Clark Kent BECAME a world spanning, award winning, pulitzer prize winning journalist.

 

He did not START with this. He had to EARN it. This is the problem. People from the younger generations come from this "pushbutton" mentality and don't want to EARN anything anymore. They want to START with it. Even though I'm from a higher social class, I do my best when I work at whatever job I do because I expect to work hard.

 

I really like people to earn things in game. A lot of people just don't see it that way.

Emphasis added.

 

Balabanto:

No offense, but until I read the above response I thought I was still in the running for Curmudgeon-in-Chief. I yield before your superior crustiness.

 

Of course super characters start with neat stuff. Thats why they're allowed 200+150 points (or therabouts). If you want them to "earn things" so badly, why not start them with only 10 points. Of course, they'll only be able to fight lesser criminals, like the annoying 5-year-old kid who lives next door or the rat at work who steals other people's lunches from the breakroom refrigerator.

 

If your players feel like they NEED to start with 15 points of wealth, then it's a reaction to something you are doing. A lot of people in this thread have said pretty much the same thing. Either you are determined to "teach" your players a lesson about hard work and earning their rewards before being allowed to have anything good, or you are in denial that any problem in your game could begin at your end of the table. You ask for advice, get a lot of good responses, then reject them out of hand. Why did you bother to ask?

 

All I can suggest is that you seek older players who share your worldview. If you continue to hold your current players in such contempt, even your best efforts will not conceal it. That sort of vitriol, even when "suppressed", will poison your campaign.

[input.jack]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

My group had an alternative team (for between the main campaign's story-arcs) who all had 10 points of wealth. They all had professions they excelled at' date=' but little need to actually practice them. After a while their team leader went on a late-night talk show. When asked why they went into the "heroing biz" he answered "we needed something to do." Boredom as a character motivation. Who knew?[/quote']

 

So, just how ARE things with the Hong Kong Cavaliers?

[input.jack]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

A hero is supposed to live a life as an ordinary man, most of the time. (I hate Public ID, and more and more people in my game take it, or are forced into it by circumstance)

 

And "ordinary" men are not normally fabulously, unbelievably wealthy. Apparently, a job as a reporter, a clerk, or any number of other professions are all uninteresting to them except for multimillionaire.

 

I really think this is a social class problem, where I belong to one social class and see things one way, and my players belong to a different social class and see things differently in the way that money works.

 

That reeks to me of being entirely your own head-trip. Who says a hero is "supposed" to live life as an ordinary man, most of the time? That works for Clark Kent, but doesnt apply at ALL to Batman, Martian Manhunter, Aquaman, Namor, Thor, Iron Man, Wasp, Black Panther, and hundreds of other heroes.

 

What youre effectively doing is limiting the range of character concepts to a social strata YOU consider "acceptable" for people to be considered "heroic", and I think thats incredibly unfair of you. Its been fairly clearly demonstrated that the underlying cause for "wealth escalation" in your game is likely tied to how you view Wealth, and how you use it in your game.

 

Heroes are people who put their lives on the line to help others. What their day-jobs are SHOULD be immaterial.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

You say your players are younger. Maybe they aren't as familiar with the genre material and convetions that deal with the hero masquerading as an "ordinary man."

 

Maybe they grew up in the world of Batman and James Bond.

 

You just need to sit down and explain to them what you are seeing (in that you find it both unrealistic and not ideal for everyone to be that wealthy), and talk to them about how THEY feel. Maybe there is a problem on your end too, Maybe, maybe they haven't considered the unique challenges and fun that stem from having 0 Wealth.

 

Honesty, communication, and a willingness to come to some sort of compromise so that everyone can have fun is the key to success. In my opinion, that is.

[Victim]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

I like the version of Axis and Allies where you start out as an infantry guy and have to earn the right to command troops.

[Black Omega]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

For a human level game, I can see limits on wealth. The ability to say "Why should we go down after the cultists? With my contacts and wealth I can hire people to do it. And who needs to investigate, that's what PI's are for. I can afford the best." is very powerful on a human level. For a superhuman level wealth makes much less of a difference. I see much more competition on stats then wealth.

[RPMiller]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

Since wealth seems to be so important and a center of what is going on, try this: play an entire session just dealing with their wealth. They have to attend social functions, deal with business, lawyers, paparazzi, etc. After one or two extremely boring sessions of "real life" you can ask them if that 15 points of wealth is really worth it.

 

I stand by what I said above though. I think your group's take on wealth is not accurate and as GM you have the ability to change its definition.

[assault]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

This is all a bit strange. Wealth isn't usually a significant goal in Champions.

 

It's perfectly normal for characters to start wealthy. It's much less common for characters to become wealthy after they start, and even less so for them to become zillionaires.

 

Let's list a few characters in the source material that started off seriously rich. Not all at the 15 point level, of course.

Crimson Avenger

Sandman

Star-Spangled Kid

Wonder Woman (at home, at least)

Starman

Batman

Green Arrow

 

Too many Golden Agers, so I'll stop there.

 

Silver Agers:

Iron Man

Black Panther (head of state)

Namor (head of state)

Charles Xavier

Warren Worthington

Reed Richards

 

Some others...

Blue Beetle (Ted Kord) (lost his money later but...)

Booster Gold (someone who didn't start as a zillionaire!)

 

And a bunch of others. There's certainly no shortage of them.

 

Frankly, I think this is all a storm in a teacup.

[Kirby]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

I just don't understand what's wrong with doing things the way that they're done in the comic books.

Have you explained this to your players? I'm thinking not, myself. My feeling is that you're angry at the monster you created and didn't put the proper restrictions on the players when they were creating their characters.

 

And you've all read my "Realism isn't real" posts.

You assume way too much' date=' which probably adds to your frustration and stress. Any post you've referenced on this thread, I have never read, but for some reason you seem to think that we [i']should have[/i] read it (simply because you posted it?). This reinforces my opinion that you've created this 'escalation' that bugs you so much.

 

I really like people to earn things in game. A lot of people just don't see it that way.

Did you let that be known from day 1? From day 20? At all? I'd bet at least 2 out of 3 are "no's."

 

Quite frankly, it seems you're imposing your opinion on what the game should be about and how the players should behave. When other opinions differ from yours, you get uppity and snobbish because these "lessers" don't accept your rightness. After all, you're richer and better off (better?) than them. You know better. That's the vibe I'm feeling.

 

YMMV.

[Victim]

Re: Richest Man in the World Disease

 

Since wealth seems to be so important and a center of what is going on, try this: play an entire session just dealing with their wealth. They have to attend social functions, deal with business, lawyers, paparazzi, etc. After one or two extremely boring sessions of "real life" you can ask them if that 15 points of wealth is really worth it.

 

Purposely creating boring sessions sounds like a great idea, assuming that you aren't attached to having players at all.