Hyper-Man Posted April 9, 2007 Report Share Posted April 9, 2007 Re: Sorceror/Wizard 3.5 Spell Conversion That sounds a lot like Jericho's ability (from Teen Titans). I bet somebody has done the tough part already. Finding it is the trick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted April 9, 2007 Report Share Posted April 9, 2007 Re: Sorceror/Wizard 3.5 Spell Conversion Wow, I guess I really need to take a closer look at your site as well as the current D&D rules. Thanks. I think its key to realize that my site presents a lot of general fantasy material. The D&D conversions is mostly just some conversion mappings for specific things particular to D&D, and the rest just points into the general material. The site is High Fantasy HERO, not D&D Conversion HERO This sums it up: D&D Conversion diagram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted April 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2007 Re: Sorceror/Wizard 3.5 Spell Conversion Fifth level magic has now been posted to the HERO Designer webpage. Enjoy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted April 12, 2007 Report Share Posted April 12, 2007 Re: Sorceror/Wizard 3.5 Spell Conversion Fifth level magic has now been posted to the HERO Designer webpage. Enjoy. Excellent! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted April 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2007 Re: Sorceror/Wizard 3.5 Spell Conversion I'm taking votes. Cleric 0 level magic, or Sor/Wiz 6? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted April 12, 2007 Report Share Posted April 12, 2007 Re: Sorceror/Wizard 3.5 Spell Conversion I'm taking votes. Cleric 0 level magic, or Sor/Wiz 6? My vote is Cleric since I am now playing one in our bi-weekly game. The higher level stuff looks like it will be getting even trickier than it has up till now. I think the accuracy of the builds is going to increase their active costs into near VPP-breaking territory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaws Posted April 12, 2007 Report Share Posted April 12, 2007 Re: Sorceror/Wizard 3.5 Spell Conversion I'll vote for cleirc too! You are doing excellent work here! Congrats! You Rock! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynnlefey Posted April 12, 2007 Report Share Posted April 12, 2007 Re: Sorceror/Wizard 3.5 Spell Conversion I was just about to ask if Cleric spells would be forthcoming any time soon. BTW, thank you very much for the effort. As a FH GM, I know nothing seems to be easy, and every bit of shared work helps us all along. So, again... thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorpheousXO Posted April 13, 2007 Report Share Posted April 13, 2007 Re: Sorceror/Wizard 3.5 Spell Conversion I vote for Cleric. After all, it'll give you a break from both the higher difficulty of higher level spells and only doing Sorc/Wiz spells. Also, since some of the spells overlap, it should be quicker (at least I think some of the spells overlap... I've never actually played a cleric for more than one session...). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted April 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2007 Re: Sorceror/Wizard 3.5 Spell Conversion Okie doke, Cleric Level One (not zero, ugh) will be the next group of spells that I build. I'll put together a new thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted July 13, 2007 Report Share Posted July 13, 2007 Re: Sorceror/Wizard 3.5 Spell Conversion It Lives! I have not yet seen a satisfying translation of the D&D Magic Missile spell so I decided to give it a try. Most other HERO examples of this either used AOE 1 Hex Accurate which still allows for Dive For Cover and/or based the # of charges on earned XP (not spent) which doesn't seem to match up with multi-classing rules. 11 Magic Missile: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6-1, Affects Desolidified Any form of Desolidification (+1/2), No Range Modifier (+1/2), No Normal Defense (Power Defense; +1), Does BODY (+1), Area Of Effect (5" Radius; +1), Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1) (65 Active Points); Limited Power: Only vs. living targets, all missiles must be fired at same time, each missile can only hit 1 target, -1 missile for every 2 points below a base skill roll of X- (-1 1/2), 5 Charges (-3/4), Cannot Use Targeting (-1/2), Spell (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4), Requires A Skill Roll (No Active Point penalty to Skill Roll, RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. Skill contests; -1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Extra Time (Delayed Phase, -1/4) - END=[5] I know that several of the Limitations might be considered frivolous to some. The Active Cost of 65 would not change and the Real Cost of 11 would probably not increase by more than 5 points if some were removed. Comments? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted July 13, 2007 Report Share Posted July 13, 2007 Re: Sorceror/Wizard 3.5 Spell Conversion I have not yet seen a satisfying translation of the D&D Magic Missile spell so I decided to give it a try. Most other HERO examples of this either used AOE 1 Hex Accurate which still allows for Dive For Cover and/or based the # of charges on earned XP (not spent) which doesn't seem to match up with multi-classing rules. Getting a direct translation of this spell from one system to a very different system is tough, which is why I'm good getting something that catches the spirit of the spell. But I don't think this is a faithful translation either. 11 Magic Missile: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6-1' date=' Affects Desolidified Any form of Desolidification (+1/2), No Range Modifier (+1/2), No Normal Defense (Power Defense; +1)[/quote'] Power Defense? How does that match the various talismans, force spells, etc. which block the D&D Magic Missile? The catch is that, for the D&D defenses to be used, the spell effectively requires translation, and use, of the entire D&D setting. Does BODY (+1) With 5 missiles on a typical target, average BOD damage will be 2.67 x 5 = 13.35. In D&D, the spell is more a nuisance against PC's than a lethal killer. I think this inflicts too much BOD to accurately simulate that. Unfortunately, even a 1 BOD attack means 5 BOD from a 5 missile attack, which is a lot, but that's as low as the system practically allows for. A 1d6 normal attack would do the trick with NND Does BOD. [1/2 d6 would also work, and lower the BOD, but that makes each missile pretty much laughable.] Area Of Effect (5" Radius; +1) So I can still dive for cover - I just need to dive further. And we need a swack of limitations to effectively make it non-AoE again. I think a better structure would be allowing the MM to be Rapid Attack'd [to a maximum based on the magic skill] and building in PSL's to offset the accumulating penalty, as well as the talent for Rapid Attack. What about AoE - Accurate with a custom advantage that targets cannot Dive for Cover? Hero doesn't have a "hits automatically" power, but if we build in enough levels, it would only miss DCV 3 on an 18 (or a 21, or what have you). It would then seem reasonable to apply the "absolutes" optional rule. Autofire (5 shots; +1/2)' date=' Non-Standard Attack Power (+1)[/quote'] Rapid Attack also divests of the Autofire issue, which should cause the AOE to "spread" on a high attack roll, and reduces your OCV on multiple slots absent skill levels to offset this. Limited Power: Only vs. living targets' date=' all missiles must be fired at same time,[/quote'] Don't most autofire attacks all fire off at the same time? each missile can only hit 1 target' date=' -1 missile for every 2 points below a base skill roll of [b']X[/b]- (-1 1/2) I dislike limitations on a full power which only partially limit it. In this case, the "reduced missiles" limitations seems to limit Autofire and/or enhance the Charges limitation. 5 Charges (-3/4)' date=' Cannot Use Targeting (-1/2)[/quote'] I would say, rather, that the spell uses general damage, and does not roll for hit locations at all. I think that's a -0, isn't it? Spell (-1/2)' date=' Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4), Requires A Skill Roll (No Active Point penalty to Skill Roll, RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. Skill contests; -1/4)[/quote'] RSR itself departs from the D&D baseline. A skill vs skill changes the spell markedly in that a skilled wizard is much less likely to be affected by a Magic Missile than Wally the Warrior. The D&D spell affects everyone equally. Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4)' date=' Extra Time (Delayed Phase, -1/4) - END=[5'] Not sure why delayed phase, but I suspect this is an overall item for your magic system. I think Steve's Digital Hero conversion was at least as faithful to the original, if not more so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hierax Posted July 13, 2007 Report Share Posted July 13, 2007 Re: Sorceror/Wizard 3.5 Spell Conversion I have not yet seen a satisfying translation of the D&D Magic Missile spell ... Lots of ideas on the old Magic Missiles thread: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1088642 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted July 14, 2007 Report Share Posted July 14, 2007 Re: Sorceror/Wizard 3.5 Spell Conversion Make the AE as large as the spell's attack. There is no "Dive for Cover" in D&D but the spell has a range of what 100' + 10' per level? So make the AE 100 ft or some such and if they dive they dive...that's my thinking anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted July 14, 2007 Report Share Posted July 14, 2007 Re: Sorceror/Wizard 3.5 Spell Conversion If you want to avoid "dive 4 cover", make it an EGO Attack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted July 14, 2007 Report Share Posted July 14, 2007 Re: Sorceror/Wizard 3.5 Spell Conversion Also, I posted this earlier in this very thread: Rather than Indirect, there is always Summon. The advantage of summon for things like this is that they are independent of the caster, and move on their own phases. They can move around like a normal character, and interact in a fashion that Indirect and Continuous just don't quite capture. Seeking Mage Missiles Summon 4 137-point Seeking Mage Missiles, Slavishly Devoted (+1) (74 Active Points) Extra Time Full Phase, Incantations, Gestures (-1): Real Cost : 37 Seeking Mage Missile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted July 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2007 Re: Sorceror/Wizard 3.5 Spell Conversion Well, here's the thing. There really is only one Magic Missile, and it's been in the system forever because at first I don't know that anyone realized how unbalancing it was; nothing says lovin' like a never miss autofire attack. However, to get a proper translation in HERO, as Hugh alluded too earlier, requires not only that we take the d20 setting wholesale, we also in turn accept all of its own foibles and weaknesses. For me, when I sat down to do this project (Cleric L2 goes up today, I'm stuck on Zone of Truth and then it's done) I only had one single goal: to capture the "look & feel" of each spell as faithfully as possible. My version of Magic Missile did that, but again, I'm putting Magic Missile into the HERO system, and accepting HERO's design mechanics, rather than forcing HERO to bend around d20 mechanics, which it seems is what you're doing here. This version: 7 Magic Missile [Evocation]: Energy Blast 2d6+1, Affects Desolidified Any form of Desolidification (+1/2), Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; +1/2), Autofire (3 shots; +1 1/4) (39 Active Points); 1 Charge (-2), Does Not Affect Inanimate Objects (-1/2), Spell (Evocation; -1/2), Requires An Evocation Roll (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Blocked by Shield and Similar Magics (-1/2) Takes some liberties. Among other things, because I agree with Hugh, I went with EB over RKA, for the simple reason that I didn't imagine Magic Missile requiring resistant (or even exotic) defenses; it's a blasty force bolty thing. Not high level Power Defense magic. I forgot in my original to put in (thanks, Hugh) Blocked by Shield and Similar Magics -- i.e., those things that specifically protect against Magic Missile. You don't need to tell the Shield spell that it does it; you just tell the Missile that it can't (much cheaper, anyway). Your version seems overly expensive & complex, and (to me) isn't really capturing the nature of Magic Missile. In d20 we can have "never miss" attacks (barring cover, and you can take cover from Magic Missile fire) and in HERO we generally don't; the closest we come is an incredibly easy attack roll (such as One Hex Acc). Anyway. Things to think on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaws Posted July 14, 2007 Report Share Posted July 14, 2007 Re: Sorceror/Wizard 3.5 Spell Conversion Your version seems overly expensive & complex, and (to me) isn't really capturing the nature of Magic Missile. In d20 we can have "never miss" attacks (barring cover, and you can take cover from Magic Missile fire) and in HERO we generally don't; the closest we come is an incredibly easy attack roll (such as One Hex Acc). Anyway. Things to think on. Personally I think the Idea behind MM being a Summon instead of a direct attack power is an ingenious mechanic to say the least. Though it is a bit complex it emulates Magic missile beautifully, though I agree an always hits thingy is too much for any system. I have seen very abusive things done with it in d20. Still its an Icon! so it MUST LVIE Great work guys. I really wish I could spread more rep! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted July 14, 2007 Report Share Posted July 14, 2007 Re: Sorceror/Wizard 3.5 Spell Conversion Well, a few points: a) I don't in general disagree that an exact modeling of all spells isn't necessarily either possible or desired and that a look & feel is typically good enough, and I have a large body of work demonstrating that. I don't disagree that an always hits attack isn't really "HERO". I'm one of the most vocal opponents of "absolute" effects; you might cruise around for a lengthy rant or two on just that subject in the old posts. c) I don't think there is any one "right" way to model Magic Missile, or pretty much any other "spell". Personally, I've modeled it many different ways on different characters. I don't have a problem with different characters having different versions of a spell like this; in fact, I rather like it since it adds variety and shows off the flexibility of the system. d) I don't disagree that a Summon approach is a more complex approach than some. e) I don't agree that complex = bad. Anyway, my actual conversion of Magic Missile, and a chain of "improved" new versions called "Mystic Missiles", in the Spells database takes a different tact and is more of a "look & feel". It doesn't always hit, but it almost always will. The core mechanic is a stack of Advantages on a relatively small dice of effect: Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2), Accurate (+0) Affects Desolidified Any form of Desolidification (+1/2) No Range Modifier (+1/2) No Normal Defense (Shield Spell and Magics based on it, [Force] effects) Standard (+1) Does BODY (+1) and optionally Autofire (3 shots; +1/4), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1) Some players like it, some prefer other mechanics. Personally, I generally like to just take as high a dice of effect as Active Points allow with Line Of Sight applied and call it a wash, but I tend to prefer to crest defenses with more effect in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted July 15, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2007 Re: Sorceror/Wizard 3.5 Spell Conversion Personally I think the Idea behind MM being a Summon instead of a direct attack power is an ingenious mechanic to say the least. Though it is a bit complex it emulates Magic missile beautifully, though I agree an always hits thingy is too much for any system. I have seen very abusive things done with it in d20. Still its an Icon! so it MUST LVIE Great work guys. I really wish I could spread more rep! I keep forgetting to qualify these things. I wasn't talking to KS. I was talking to HM. *wanders off, whistling* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted July 15, 2007 Report Share Posted July 15, 2007 Re: Sorceror/Wizard 3.5 Spell Conversion My apologies. I lost my job last week and I have been focusing a little too intently on this board as a distraction. I should know better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted July 15, 2007 Report Share Posted July 15, 2007 Re: Sorceror/Wizard 3.5 Spell Conversion My apologies. I lost my job last week and I have been focusing a little too intently on this board as a distraction. I should know better. Wow, that really sucks man. Condolences. Hopefully something will come along soon. And speaking of which, hows the job market in Tampa right now? My wife and I have been seriously considering moving to Tampa recently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted July 15, 2007 Report Share Posted July 15, 2007 Re: Sorceror/Wizard 3.5 Spell Conversion Wow' date=' that really sucks man. Condolences. Hopefully something will come along soon. And speaking of which, hows the job market in Tampa right now? My wife and I have been seriously considering moving to Tampa recently.[/quote'] It's strange. My job was one of many that was moved overseas. There are several entry level help desk jobs available but not much in the middle which was what I was doing as VPN/network support. I've seen a lot of higher level stuff looking for specific program and programing skills that I don't have that might be right up your alley though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted July 15, 2007 Report Share Posted July 15, 2007 Re: Sorceror/Wizard 3.5 Spell Conversion Actually, my company has an office near the airport, but my practice isnt represented there. I might be able to swing a transfer, but I'd give it about a 15% chance of success. You can branch out into development; I can give you some pointers on books / resources to get you started if you like. Send me an email if you're interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted July 15, 2007 Report Share Posted July 15, 2007 Re: Sorceror/Wizard 3.5 Spell Conversion My apologies. I lost my job last week and I have been focusing a little too intently on this board as a distraction. I should know better. Sorry to hear that, HM. Hope things bounce back! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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