Civil War in the Champions Universe!

[Balabanto]

Re: Civil War in the Champions Universe!

 

Two words, Bill.

 

Wally West.

 

What Geoff Johns did to the Flash was a crime. Bart Allen is NOT the Flash. Not even close. And the cheesemonkey things they did to make him the Flash were moose dung itself. I dug Barry, though he got goofy towards the end. I liked Wally, and he had to grow on me. Bart Allen was a NEEDLESS CHARACTER IN THE FIRST PLACE!

 

Let's not even talk about Infinite Crisis. Geoff Johns is a total idiot. JSA is the drop of wine in the bucket of crap, but when you put it all together, it's still crap.

 

For what he did with Hal Jordan, he should be publicly executed in boiling oil. Parellax is a yellow roach? Come on! I understand you're a Hal Jordan fan, Geoff Johns, but don't let erectile dysfunction get in the way of continuity. Respect continuity above all else. Yes, I did not buy Hal Jordan's looniness in the first place, but that doesn't excuse a stupid justification later. Two wrongs don't make a right, Kyle Rayner was Green Lantern, they should have just gotten over it.

 

IF Geoff Johns was going to do the things that he did, he should have paid more attention to Identity Crisis and Infinite Crisis so that Batman was not half-insane. Batman never should have been half insane in the first place, he is DEDICATED TO HIS MISSION.

 

Just wait for him to break something else like he broke Titans. You may like it, but I think that he's terrible.

[Karmakaze]

Re: Civil War in the Champions Universe!

 

Bart Allen was a NEEDLESS CHARACTER IN THE FIRST PLACE!

 

Now, that's not fair. As Impulse, Bart was actually pretty amusing. It was just when someone decided that it was necessary to grim-n-gritty him up that things fell apart.

[Alverant]

Re: Civil War in the Champions Universe!

 

You are, and I mean this with kindness, living proof that sometimes ignorance is bliss.

 

Yeah, this was my jab at Marvel's Civil War where anti reg and pro reg sides formed up and had at, many on each side acting wildly out of character and (imo) unheroic.

 

I'm only reading the crossovers in the regular series I collect (which is to say what they did in Thunderbolts and FF). So I can't say about how Cap and Iron Man are acting, but Reed Richards is acting in character. In Issac Asimov series Foundation, the future is predicted using math. Well not predicted exactly, more like "about 250 years from now X should be happening" where X is specific enough not to be considered a lucky guess. Reed actually does this and according to his math, Civil War is the best out of all the alternatives. His support for the law isn't based on whether he thinks it's legally or morally right (I get the impression that deep down he thinks it's wrong), he supports it because if it fails humanity is doomed. Using science over emotions and looking at the big picture is perfectly in character for him.

 

But CW does raise one important issue that needs to be addressed. What happens when heroes screw up? This whole thing started when some "young" heroes (they started in the 90s) made a huge mistake and inadvertently destroyed a school killing hundreds. [say, whatever happened to Nitro anyway?] You'd think that this would have happened sooner. Superheroes are still human. Well not all of them per se, but they all make mistakes.

 

So who do superhumans answer to? Why do they have the authority to do what they do? What safeguards are there to prevent mistakes? Realistically shouldn't something like the Superhuman Registration Act have been passed soon after costumed heroes and villains started appearing?

 

Ravenswood Academy addresses part of this, but the main problem still exists, what will the fallout be when heroes fail?

[Twilight]

Re: Civil War in the Champions Universe!

 

Now' date=' that's not fair. As Impulse, Bart was actually pretty amusing. It was just when someone decided that it was necessary to grim-n-gritty him up that things fell apart.[/quote']

 

Actually, aside from that whole Flash thing I'd say Balabanto is WAY off base. I mean seriously, broke the Titans? Geoff Johns was the one who made them good again.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Civil War in the Champions Universe!

 

Tastes differ.

[Balabanto]

Re: Civil War in the Champions Universe!

 

I have no respect for Geoff Johns, and really haven't since the whole Green Lantern fiasco. The scene where Green Lantern coldcocks Batman, who should be totally ready for anything from someone he HATES at the time.

 

The reason why I loathe Geoff Johns is because I read his stuff and say "If this character was my PC, I would not do anything this stupid."

 

Johns only LOOKS like a great writer. The truth is, he's a sock puppet.

[Hermit]

Re: Civil War in the Champions Universe!

 

Wow. I'm loving his Green Lantern stories myself.

Go fig.

 

Can we all agree to hate Civil War though?

[Publius]

Re: Civil War in the Champions Universe!

 

That's the beautiful thing about the CU5th.. they don't. The law is considered a "paper tiger" iirc.

I also dig this about the CU version. If you want to play it up and go all Civil War, just add a new Administration or a significant political fiasco (especially one where the PCs gakked it up) and voile! Otherwise it doesn't really factor, or factors very low-level in the background.

[SKJAM!]

Re: Civil War in the Champions Universe!

 

 

[say, whatever happened to Nitro anyway?]

 

 

Long story, but I'll break it down to the essentials. The media and the government are bent on ramming the SHRA through, so the fact that Nitro is actually the one responsible for all those deaths is kind of swept under the rug.

 

Wolverine, who is a bit of a loose cannon, objects to this; after all, this is way more powerful than Nitro has ever been shown in the past. Iron Man assures Logan SHIELD is on the case. Having not forgotten the first few issues of the New Avengers, Wolverine goes after Nitro anyway.

 

SHIELD, as it turns out, has indeed been tracking Nitro. Despite their boasting of supposedly superior training and tactics compared to the New Warriors, the SHIELD squad is completely wiped out by Nitro. Wolverine also intially is blown away by Nitro, but since he has "Player Character" status, doesn't die. Logan figures out how Nitro's powers have changed, and takes advantage of it.

 

Nitro reveals that he's hopped up on Mutant Growth Hormone, and offers the name of his supplier in exchange for Wolverine not killing him. At this point, Atlantean agents show up, because Namor wants revenge on Nitro too.

 

After a bunch of fighting, Wolverine agrees to let Namor have custody of Nitro, and the king of Atlantis tells Wolvie the name of the supplier.

 

And that's the last time we saw Nitro.

[AdamLeisemann]

Re: Civil War in the Champions Universe!

 

Why aren't WE writing these books? No' date=' seriously, I mean it.[/quote']

 

Excuse me for taking a quote out of its context, but on my part: I'm not a very good writer, which is why I am not writing for comics.

 

Yeah, I can get ideas, but not full stories.

[AdamLeisemann]

Re: Civil War in the Champions Universe!

 

Tastes differ.

 

Precisely.

 

I personally do not read many comics, preferring graphic novels as they tend to be easier to get into (though I am starting to get into Archie's Sonic the Hedgehog comics).

 

So I don't know the various artists and writers aside from what I hear, which varies from person to person.

 

Okay, I guess that was a rather unneccesary (sp??) way of saying that I agree with Enforcer on the "tastes differ" thing.

[Balabanto]

Re: Civil War in the Champions Universe!

 

For me this isn't a taste issue. This is Jewish guy sees "Jackboot fascists in capes as supporters of the government" as the first step towards Marvel Comics, supporter of fascism.

 

If I wanted that sort of asinine environment, I'd just play City of Heroes. While it's possible that this might be some sort of video game promotion, that would only make the whole thing more contemptible.

 

I'm really not pleased with Civil War because it just proves that these people have no respect for the characters, for what's good, or what's right. When your WRITER is morally ambiguous about what good and evil are, you can't really expect the SUPERHEROES to be any different.

[Balabanto]

Re: Civil War in the Champions Universe!

 

Oh, as for the government's level of power in games, Mind Over Matter is a "Government's level of power" scenario. But the difference here is that is that unlike Mark Millar, I'm not a complete moron, and I understand the difference between "Hero" and "Villain."

 

The heroes might not by the end of the story, but that's not my problem. I'd talk more about the adventure, but I'm still playtesting it.

[OddHat]

Re: Civil War in the Champions Universe!

 

When your WRITER is morally ambiguous about what good and evil are' date=' you can't really expect the SUPERHEROES to be any different.[/quote']

 

Which is pretty close, imo, to the root of the problem.

 

Judging from interviews, posts, and his body of work, Millar is a moderately articulate, moderately well educated, emotionally damaged or developmentally delayed guy convinced that he has special insight into How the World Works.

 

Millar is the kid who tells you that he Has Seen The Depths of Human Evil, the guy who confuses his two year degree for multiple doctorates, the high functioning Asperger Syndrome sufferer who tells you he has human emotion figured out and assumes that because he can't read body language or understand social interactions, no one else can either.

 

Heck, he might post here.

 

Millar is talented enough that he's managed to helm books that sold well, and enough of a shrewd self marketer to have won an influential position in the comic book industry, and he's made his mark. Many of the teens and twenty somethings to whom his vision appeals will grow up thinking that Millar's characters are superheroes, and much cooler than the stodgy, old fashioned heroes of yesteryear.

 

The pendulum should swing the other way eventually, but I'm expecting some wretched super "hero" fiction for some time to come.

[AdamLeisemann]

Re: Civil War in the Champions Universe!

 

For me this isn't a taste issue.

 

The "taste" issue wasn't about Millar. We all know he sucks. I think it was about someone else's work on the Titans; a sidetrack. Sorry about the confusion.

 

This is Jewish guy sees "Jackboot fascists in capes as supporters of the government" as the first step towards Marvel Comics, supporter of fascism.

 

If I wanted that sort of asinine environment, I'd just play City of Heroes. While it's possible that this might be some sort of video game promotion, that would only make the whole thing more contemptible.

 

Point 1: If this guy, as ham-handed as he is, really thought Marvel was a supporter of fascism, I think Stan Lee would have found out by now and fired Millar.

 

Of course, I am probably confused about what you are saying. If so, I am sorry.

 

Point 2: I'm glad not to play MMORPGs if that's what City of Heroes is really like.

 

I'm really not pleased with Civil War because it just proves that these people have no respect for the characters, for what's good, or what's right. When your WRITER is morally ambiguous about what good and evil are, you can't really expect the SUPERHEROES to be any different.

 

I suspect that's because the target audience of most comics has shifted from dewy-eyed little kids to bitter emo-kids, who then became the writers.

 

No, I am not defending Millar, I am simply saying that people today seem to want to go away from the fans and target joe schmoe, like Nontendo seeks to do with the Wii. The difference is, while the Wii innovates towards the concept of fun, Marvel is just making things bleak because they think the average person is all Emo.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Civil War in the Champions Universe!

 

As the comic ignorant person here, what characters are Millar's?

 

Also, Adam, I've played City of Heroes a bit of myself, and I find absolutely no correlation to facism.

 

Well, actually, there's.... what do they call it... the Fifth Column villain group, which is based loosely on Neo-Nazis, I think.

[Balabanto]

Re: Civil War in the Champions Universe!

 

Well, actually...I AM a functioning (Albeit Moderately) Asperger's Syndrome sufferer. The difference is, I wasn't foolish in my choice of jobs! I sell clothing for a living. Anal retentiveness is a STRENGTH!

 

However, I'm not sure Stan Lee WOULD fire Millar. For one, he doesn't have the power to. For another, he never envisioned a world like the one that exists now when Jack Kirby created Captain America.

 

As for Geoff Johns, the reasons I dislike him have to do with the fact that he throws common sense of social interactions completely out the window when dealing with the Original Seven.

 

I'm very frightened about what might happen with Superman, since he fights for "Truth, Justice, and the American Way" in this new unpleasant comic book world. If Millar and Quesada cause a virus, DC will surely be infected shortly.

 

Remember, these companies pay marketing analysts tons of money to figure out what the other company is doing, and then replicate it.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Civil War in the Champions Universe!

 

Millar has written some good stuff in the past. I love The Ultimates, and I really liked most of Wanted (right up until the cop-out ending). I think that the problem with Millar's writing is that he doesn't change his voice to accomodate different characters and settings. He uses the same post modern, wise-ass, cynical tone for everything.

 

The way he writes The Avengers in The Ultimates is perfect, because you know that they are not the real Avengers. When you take that same approach to the real characters, and trash continuity and established characterization, then you are making a mistake.

 

A lot of modern writers are trying to follow in the footsteps of Alan Moore.Ennis should never write superheroes because he hates them. Morrison has some moments, but he really doesn't particularly care for the genre either from what I can tell.

 

Moore's are big shoes to fill, and I believe that the others often fall short becaue they do not have Moore's erudition and love of the genre. Moore deconstructs the superhero from a position of nostalgia and a personal knowledge of just what makes the archetype attractive in the first place, not from a mere desire to shock.

[Shaft]

Re: Civil War in the Champions Universe!

 

I'd love to share my thoughts with all of you on Civil War, but I'd get banned for the foulest use of language ever posted on this board.

 

What a disappointment. Make mine DC.

[transmetahuman]

Re: Civil War in the Champions Universe!

 

Remember' date=' these companies pay marketing analysts tons of money to figure out what the other company is doing, and then replicate it.[/quote']Oooh, where do I sign up?

[Enforcer84]

Re: Civil War in the Champions Universe!

 

Oooh' date=' where do I sign up?[/quote']

Nice sig there Trans.

 

"Treasure Type O".

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Civil War in the Champions Universe!

 

Remember' date=' these companies pay marketing analysts tons of money to figure out what the other company is doing, and then replicate it.[/quote']

 

Wouldn't just buying copies of the best-selling comics and paying attention to what the fans say online be a much cheaper but equally effective way of doing this?

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Civil War in the Champions Universe!

 

What annoys me about the Civil War stuff is that there are genuinely interesting issues to be raised' date=' without having to have everyone act like Pod People. Genuine conflict with people honestly acting on what they believe.[/quote']

 

[sarcasm on] Oh come now Korvar, we all know the fans would never go for that... [sarcasm off]

[Balabanto]

Re: Civil War in the Champions Universe!

 

Well, Fenris, no, because actually, Marketing is about presentation and how a product LOOKS, not how a product resolves.

 

It's about how the product is presented to the public. Which is why I think Civil War is probably the dumbest plot ever.

 

"Based on our cosmic marketing research, if Earth is going to make it's survival plan in the year 2009, we need to force every hero in the USA to register with the Government."

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Civil War in the Champions Universe!

 

...Millar is the kid who tells you that he Has Seen The Depths of Human Evil' date=' the guy who confuses his two year degree for multiple doctorates, the high functioning Asperger Syndrome sufferer who tells you he has human emotion figured out and assumes that because he can't read body language or understand social interactions, no one else can either. ...[/quote']

So you're saying... Millar wrote Hybrid?

 

 

 

 

Suddenly everything makes much more sense.