Cap is dead!!!!

[input.jack]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

One day the present group who runs marvel will die ( hopefully REALLY horribly) then maybe Cap and the real Thor will live again. Be honest guys all the real characters died a long time ago. I despise Quesada with the fury of a thousand suns. Marvel comics is obviously like a TV series that has run too many seasons. It would be better for everybody if it just ended while some of the wonder can be remembered. The idiots who run Marvel be force to ID themselves at a marine bar as Cap's killers. I weep that nothing good of the classic Marvel universe has survived except in the movies.

 

 

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to steamteck again."

 

Funny...I dont -remember- typing that post. But its word for word what I wanted to say.

[TheRavenIs]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

@#^%$*&^^%$#^(*^$@)*&%$&!!!!!!!!

 

I hate this, Cap was the real American. He was the Hero of the ages in Marvel, now he's gone.

 

This bunch of nutcases that are running Marvel and DC are freaking jokes. I mean what the heck do the share holders not do what is the right thing and tell the so-called Powers That Be at Marvel to get people that love Comics and Heroes.

 

I have had a Cap homage C; Major Victory, and I loved he's holding to the ideals of a by-gone age. Cap to me was the soul of Marvel, now I am sure that Marvel has no soul only hatred of the ideals of what it means to be a Hero, in comics or IRL.

[GestaltBennie]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

Cap lives. Marvel is dead.

[Hermit]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

I've posted this (With some alterations) before, but here we go again:

 

In case it need be said, the below is my opinion, YMMV, yadda yadda:

 

It is a sad, sad, thing when you actually learn from the Associated Press the results of a comic you haven't even read in the mail yet. I have had nothing but respect for Brubaker as a writer. I am sure he will make an excellent storyline out of this.

 

But I won't be reading it. When I hear that Steve Rogers is back, alive and well and in costume, I'll resume my purchasing of the series. Anything less is tacit agreement with Marvel's policy, and to a large degree, the apparent message that Marvel is trying to get out, that, to use the modern terms "America=Teh Suxxors". I use that term, because Marvel seems to be of belief that THAT is modern America. That none of the ideas like freedom, liberty, democracy, human decency exist anymore. No, according to Sally Floyd in Frontline, we're only about American Idol, Myspace, and other aspects of pop culture. She (and it seems Marvel) confuse the mediums and entertainments for the entirety of our the U.S. public's ideology.

 

In "Civil War" they've drawn parallels to Gitmo, the Patriot Act, prisoner torture, and other attrocities. Of course, they've done nothing to show the counterbalance. The protests against the Patriot Act or local states hemming it in, the fact that it was whistle blowers within the US Army itself that came forward to mention prisoner treatment in Iraq. The congressmen and public who voice their concerns about Gitmo. No, there is nothing in the comics to show THAT part of America, or that America is not as blindly united in its policies as they would make it appear. This isn't even counting the ludicrous comparison of 'superheroes=terrorists". Had the New Warriors been true terrorists, they would have targeted innocents as their GOAL. This is all lost on Marvel, perhaps intentionally so, because if they admit this, their rather weak allegory falls apart. Crap makes wonderful fertilizer, but it doesn't often hold together well.

 

So, apparently Captain America has to die (or appear to be dead) to make the final symbol that "American idealism is dead". Marvel really does seem to think so little of us in this country. I'm sure that's not the entire purpose, but it is still the message they send, and it is one I really can't support.

 

Joe Quesada is slyly hinting on about how THIS Time, he's dead, and he's going to stay that way for awhile. This, to anyone who's been with Marvel in the last few years, is laughable. "Dead is Dead" was abandoned like a drunkard's oath to swear off booze quite often with such characters as Colossus, Bucky(Long thought forever dead) and more. I've come under the opinion that whenever Joe is interviewed you can tell when he's lying. His lips move. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure he's quite the nice guy otherwise, but I don't trust his interviews.

 

My friend and I share a subscription which is up soon. I don't know much, but I know she'll be pissed. In this world of internet spoilers, and even the News giving out the details before the fans themselves get to read it, it isn't like I have doubts I can find out WHEN Steve returns. So I don't really need to READ the comics to keep up to date on them. So why should I get them when they won't have the hero I want in them until I'm sure they will? Back issues aren't even as needed. I can get the trades if I miss his return.

 

And I don't believe Steve is 'dead is dead'. Marvel will have him seem dead long enough to explore the ramifications, and much like Death of Superman, the original will return after those stories are explored. Later it will all be explained how his survival was covered up, etc. Again, I'm sure Brubaker can make it very interesting. He's a great writer, no doubt.

 

But I want to read about Steve Roger's adventures as Captain America, not how everyone will be reacting to "World without a cap" or "Who will be the next Captain America?" So I am 89% sure we'll be dropping this subscription. And come to think of it, we'll probably dropping most of Marvel period.

 

It's a shame. I want to read Nova the series. I hope Slott does well with Avengers: Initiative. Who knows? I might actually break down and read them anyway. But more and more the Marvel 616 Universe is becoming a place that holds no interest for me.

 

 

Marvel is working on a Captain America movie. Cap's trades and old comics abound if you know where to look. RPGs occur where Captain America is used regularly by fans who know how to use him better than Marvel itself. In almost all cases, folks think of Steve Rogers when they do this. Heck, any time I want Steve Rogers to live I can dash out a little fanfiction. It might be crap, it might be quite good, but he'd be up and about. You can not kill an idea once it has spread to this degree and Steve Rogers and the ideals he represented are pretty much as one in the minds of many, myself included.

 

 

Is this overly sentimental nostalgia over a character? Well, of course it is! Such attachments to a character is what keeps said characters selling in the bad times as well as good, so those who'd lecture on how fans of cap are getting upset over nothing are missing the point. If merely fictional characters don't matter at all, why read about them at all? Emotional attachments can heighten your enjoyment of a character's tales, but they can also diminish it when mishandled or discarded. If Steve Rogers is not wanted in Marvel, well, I'll take him and my memories of him off elsewhere, along with some of my dollars.

 

So, even when not in the comics, Steve Rogers lives, I can not say the same of my trust of Marvel's direction.

[psm]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

Wow, I'm amazed at the responses. How can you all be so cynical? It's not like a real person died. It's not even like the character isn't coming back.

 

Do any of you even read Captian America? If you did you would realize that it's the best its been in years. Ed Brubaker/Micheal Lark have been hitting it out of the park since they're first story arc. Yet, none of you seem capable of trusting them to write the character/storyline as they see fit. Fine, you don't want to stay around for the ride, in my opinion it's your loss.

[Brandi]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

My only fear is that they will pull a Death of Superman. Think of all the guys that could try to take up the mantle:

 

Patriot

US Agent (probably not since he's in Omega Flight right now)

The Winter Soldier/Bucky

Punisher (he has Cap's mask...)

Iron Man

 

Indeed, we even have the breakdown of

Young Super Soldier

Cyborg Super Soldier

Anti-hero willing to kill (I'm not sure if USAgent qualifies for this as well)

Guy in homebuilt power suit...

[Hermit]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

Wow, I'm amazed at the responses. How can you all be so cynical? It's not like a real person died. It's not even like the character isn't coming back.

 

Do any of you even read Captian America?

 

Actually, in my post I said I've been subscribing to it.

 

If you did you would realize that it's the best its been in years.

No arguement there either. Ed is awesome. On the other hand, Millar's Civil War BS is proof that the man should never be allowed to touch 616's Captain America ever again.

Yet, none of you seem capable of trusting them to write the character/storyline as they see fit.

Well, it seems the character isn't going to be written. Steve is either dead (and yes, that's probably temporary), or in critical condition. Either way it doesn't seem he'll be back in his own book. Why should I pay for a comic series that isn't showing the character I want to read about?

 

When Steve comes back wearing the wings again, so will I. I hope Ed is still writing it when that occurs.

[Balabanto]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

Dude, it will NOT be the Patriot.

 

Patriot has a fundamental issue. He's the former leader of THE SECRET EMPIRE!

 

There is no way on 616 Earth Brubaker would EVER allow that to happen.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

I was talking about Elijah Bradley of the Young Avengers

[Balabanto]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

Another disaster waiting to happen.

[Grimble]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

MAN! I really hate Civil War!!!

 

Grimble

[psm]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

Well, it seems the character isn't going to be written. Steve is either dead (and yes, that's probably temporary), or in critical condition. Either way it doesn't seem he'll be back in his own book. Why should I pay for a comic series that isn't showing the character I want to read about?

 

Obviously, I can't change your opinion nor do I really want to. But by your own admission, Brubaker is an excellent writer. Aren't you the least bit interested in what he has coming? Especially, when he says that he has the next two years already planned out. Admittedly, it may (or may not) feature Steve Rogers but it will be part of the Captain America mythos. But if you can't enjoy a story no matter how well done because it doesn't contain your favorite character then you can't enjoy it. I'm going to pay for it because I love comics with great stories by accomplished writer/artists, but to each their own.

 

I'm also guessing that you didn't get the "Truth" series either?

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

Obviously, I can't change your opinion nor do I really want to. But by your own admission, Brubaker is an excellent writer. Aren't you the least bit interested in what he has coming? Especially, when he says that he has the next two years already planned out. Admittedly, it may (or may not) feature Steve Rogers but it will be part of the Captain America mythos. But if you can't enjoy a story no matter how well done because it doesn't contain your favorite character then you can't enjoy it. I'm going to pay for it because I love comics with great stories by accomplished writer/artists, but to each their own.

 

I'm also guessing that you didn't get the "Truth" series either?

 

 

Well I'm not impressed. I find the whole thing deplorable and have not been impressed by Brubaker's writing for Cap. He is a good writer but not a good Cap writer. Just because his work isn't total drek like the rest out there is no reason to claim he brilliant. I have really really tried to like the new marvel but none of them speak to me. Even his stuff leaves me annoyed and angry after reading it. When I find a great comic in the mainstream I'll let you know. Everything anyone has recommended has been an enormous disappointment so far. I repeat Marvel is like a good TV show that has gone on too long. It needs to just end before everyone forgets about the magic or oit is only remembered in some part in film.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

I had about 6hrs to kill and was bored of my computer (Surprising eh?) So I went to the comic shop and hung out like old times. OMG! I purused the comic shelves and stumbled accross the Death of Captain America.

 

Ladies and Gentlemen, there are dozen of ways for Cap to have dealt with that situation. Jumping in front of a bullet is not one of them. This is Captain "Freaking" America, Super Soldier, he could have legswept the Marshal and dropped to the ground at the same instant. Jeese... He jumped infront of the bullet because it was part of their freaking plan. Then Sharon shoots him in the stomach while he's down. Come on.

 

 

More later

 

QM

[OddHat]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

Speaking as a moderator, please avoid personal comments about other posters likes and dislikes in this thread.

 

So far, this is a useful thread for reactions, pro and con, to events in a comic book world many posters are interested in. Please keep it civil and respect one another.

 

Thanks.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

Well, it seems the character isn't going to be written. Steve is either dead (and yes, that's probably temporary), or in critical condition. Either way it doesn't seem he'll be back in his own book. Why should I pay for a comic series that isn't showing the character I want to read about?

 

When Steve comes back wearing the wings again, so will I. I hope Ed is still writing it when that occurs.

 

Early in the Brubaker run, he devoted an entire issue to Nomad. Did you throw that one out? Just curious.

 

On a broader note, I find it interesting that cirticisms of comic writing seems to come in two flavours, in rooughly equal amounts:

 

- "the characters and the world never change; nothing ever advances or evolves; the characters never age; this stagnation is bad."

 

- "they changed this and I don't like it."

 

I'm not saying the recent stories that people complain about are great literature, or even good comics, but faced with two alternatives, neither of which make anyone happy, I guess I'd pick the approach that sells the most books - no one's going to be happpy anyway. I guess people only buy comics to complain about them, so publishers should try to write crap no one likes so more people will buy it to complain about it.

 

With that in mind, I would say Hermit has the right approach. If you don't like what they're producing, don't buy it. If enough people agree and exercise their own right to leave the book on the shelf, the publisher will be encouraged to do something different. Of course, if everyone else likes it, and buys it (or buys it even though they detest it), the publishers will keep publishing it - it sells!

 

Welcome to Capitalism - isn't that also part of the Spirit of America?

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

When I was growing up with comics I prefered Marvel. Thor was my favorite then Iron man or Cap depending on my mood. The only thing Dc had to compare was Roy Thomas all star squadron stuff. The earth 2 Superman was the coolest and all those great seasoned heros and their kids. it was great. Well way back earth two was destroyed. The new Superman started out good as did most of the post crisis but things went horribly wrong. Now the earth 2 Supes is dead. Thor is dead along with all his people and all that wonderful mythology. Iron man is such a jerk he might as well be dead and Cap was killed by small minded writers.

The comics all need to take a hint from the TAS universe to do it right. Even the Ultimate Avengers movie was heaven compared to today's books. Have people's minds grown so small in the industry that they can no longer even begin to understand its larger than life characters?

[OddHat]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

 

On a broader note, I find it interesting that cirticisms of comic writing seems to come in two flavours, in rooughly equal amounts:

 

- "the characters and the world never change; nothing ever advances or evolves; the characters never age; this stagnation is bad."

 

- "they changed this and I don't like it."

 

 

I'd agree that both classes of complaint are common, but there's a much wider spectrum of criticism and commentary out there than the above, both positive and negative. That said, yes, sales will determine what gets published. That's the commercial entertainment world for you. It is however fair to say "it's a bad story", commercially successful or no.

[Mister E]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

I guess it's time to quit buying Marvel.

[aylwin13]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

I guess it's time to quit buying Marvel.

Better late than never.

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

The Onion chimes in.

[Hermit]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

Obviously' date=' I can't change your opinion nor do I really want to. But by your own admission, Brubaker is an excellent writer. Aren't you the least bit interested in what he has coming? [/quote'] Not enough to pay for this when other comics just as well written about characters I DO prefer are out. Since I don't care for the new direction of Marvel's mainstream setting, D.C. is looking better and better by comparison. I also hear good things about independent comics like Invincible.

 

What's more, Internet reviews come on with the speed of post. Trades come out regularly for some titles, Captain America among them. If I really want to keep up, it won't be hard to get the info second hand. If enough people I trust tell me how great it is, getting the trade won't be hard if I MUST have it and read for myself.

Especially, when he says that he has the next two years already planned out. Admittedly, it may (or may not) feature Steve Rogers but it will be part of the Captain America mythos.

 

Some would say USAgent as part of the latest Invaders series was part of the Captain America mythos. However, I wasn't that big a fan of the character so again I spent my money elsewhere. There is a danger in attempting to be a completionist, particularly to one's budget.

 

I'm also guessing that you didn't get the "Truth" series either?

 

Which one? The Truth in Red, White, and Black?

I tried to give that one a chance, though I was dubious about the premise, but when I looked at the first issue, I found I didn't care for the art. Others loved it, and that's cool for them.

 

 

It is not that I hate change. I vastly prefer Dick Grayson as Nightwing to Dick Grayson as Robin. I thought Ed's revamp and return of Bucky was masterful. But change is not always good, just as it is not always bad. I find most of the changes brought about by Civil War damaging to the MU. I find Steve Roger's "death" damaging to my interest in the Captain America comic book in that it took out the heart of it.

 

Some good things may come out of this stuff eventually. Most agree that Heroes Reborn sucked, yet, strangely without it, Busiek's Thunderbolts might not have been born frex.

 

I do not expect Marvel to kowtow to the wishes of one reader. However, neither do I see why I am obligated to buy their books in the name of 'giving them a chance'. I am a customer. They are no longer providing what I want. If I go to a car dealership and ask for a certain make and model, and they inform me they no longer have that, but that's okay because they have this other GREAT Model I have no interest in, I am not going to go "gee, I guess I should buy this since they say it is so much better." I know what I want, it's my money, so I will to else where trying to find something that I DO like and do want or wait till the model comes back.

[Hermit]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

Early in the Brubaker run, he devoted an entire issue to Nomad. Did you throw that one out? Just curious.

No.

 

As I said, in this case it doesn't look like Steve will be in his own book for sometime. Quite a difference between an issue skipped without him and a possible 2 year plus disappearing act.

 

On a broader note, I find it interesting that cirticisms of comic writing seems to come in two flavours, in rooughly equal amounts:

 

- "the characters and the world never change; nothing ever advances or evolves; the characters never age; this stagnation is bad."

 

- "they changed this and I don't like it."

 

I'm not saying the recent stories that people complain about are great literature, or even good comics, but faced with two alternatives, neither of which make anyone happy, I guess I'd pick the approach that sells the most books - no one's going to be happpy anyway.

 

As Oddhat points out, you're oversimplifying the complaints. There's change, and there's 'the series you that had the character you were wanting to read about is no longer IN it for the forseeable future'. As I said in another post to someone else, I liked some changes (Prefer Nightwing over Robin, frex) and I dislike others. There can be a middle ground, and yes, personal tastes on where that ground lays will vary.

 

 

With that in mind, I would say Hermit has the right approach. If you don't like what they're producing, don't buy it. If enough people agree and exercise their own right to leave the book on the shelf, the publisher will be encouraged to do something different. Of course, if everyone else likes it, and buys it (or buys it even though they detest it), the publishers will keep publishing it - it sells!

 

That's true. If enough keep buying this and prefer the new Captain America, whoever that will be, Marvel will follow the money. It's a business, and I have no delusions otherwise. However, it wouldn't be the first time I didn't see the appeal of a direction the majority seemed to prefer. That's life.

[Checkmate]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

I thought Ed's revamp and return of Bucky was masterful

I love ya man, but yikes you will never be my "go to guy" for comic reviews

[Hermit]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

I love ya man' date=' but yikes you will never be my "go to guy" for comic reviews [/quote']

 

Understood

 

I like Winter Soldier myself, which is weird in some ways because I LOATHE Cable, and you'd think a guy with a cybernetic arm who used a rifle would have me heading for the hills.