Not Role Playing Disadvantages.

[Demonsong]

Hello all,

 

It every ones favorite Demon….err, um, I mean GM with another question for all you other GM’s out there. How do you handle characters not role playing there Disadvantages. I have an example:

 

A character with Code vs. Killing. Holding an agent (that surrendered) still so another party member could shoot him in the head. He defended his actions by saying that his code against killing was personal and did not count because he did not kill the poor SOB the other guy did. No, this really happened!!!

 

Well what do you think?

 

As a side note my campaign is generally not that insane but these two players are loose cannons.

[Gary]

Re: Not Role Playing Disadvantages.

 

Originally posted by Demonsong

Hello all,

 

It every ones favorite Demon….err, um, I mean GM with another question for all you other GM’s out there. How do you handle characters not role playing there Disadvantages. I have an example:

 

A character with Code vs. Killing. Holding an agent (that surrendered) still so another party member could shoot him in the head. He defended his actions by saying that his code against killing was personal and did not count because he did not kill the poor SOB the other guy did. No, this really happened!!!

 

Well what do you think?

 

As a side note my campaign is generally not that insane but these two players are loose cannons.

 

Unluck is a wonderful tool for balancing this. If players don't role play their disadvantages, give them a number of dice of unluck equal to the points they received for the disad, since obviously the disad isn't limiting them. I'd give the guy 4D6 Unluck until he improves his attitude. The Karmic balance must be kept.

[JohnOSpencer]

Re: Re: Not Role Playing Disadvantages.

 

Originally posted by Gary

Unluck is a wonderful tool for balancing this. If players don't role play their disadvantages, give them a number of dice of unluck equal to the points they received for the disad, since obviously the disad isn't limiting them. I'd give the guy 4D6 Unluck until he improves his attitude. The Karmic balance must be kept.

 

I like this solution. I'll have to use it with one of my players who "Won't hit a woman" and always seems to be targeting women first. He claims he just forgets, but I can only remind him so many times. I think this is relatively fair. Good idea Gary!

 

John Spencer

[Hitchhiker]

Heh, the memories...

 

We had a character in one campaign who would "never tell a lie". The tricky part was that he had also a secret identity - he never wanted to talk about it.

 

So regularly, he returned from some dark corner and one of us asked him what he had been doing there...

 

Us: Hey, you're back! Where have you been?

Him: Err...from a back-alley.

Us: What have you been doing there? (grin)

Him: I won't tell you anything about this.

Us: Aw, come on! We've seen your contact!

Him: Goddammit, I won't tell you ANYTHING!

 

Man, that was fun. He got angry so easily.

 

And yeah, I like your solution too.

[Patriot]

another way

 

Have him pick up a hunted

he has just become an accessory to a crime, And the opponent was seriously under powered, and not fighting, so he does not have self defense as a cop-out option

The fbi, local law enforcment, PRIMUS, or depending on location UNTIL roll down on his murderous arse, ansd he may think about it again , then his whole team gets under the scrutiny of those orginizations

[Talon]

To be fair, some types of CVK are personal. You could ask the player to clarify the disad, running through a few test cases, then make sure it's appropriate priced. Also use this opportunity to explore the reasoning behind the disad, to assure yourself that it makes sense.

 

A "I will never, ever kill someone myself, but I have no problem asking someone else to do it for me" CVK is probably not worth more than 5 points unless the character is somehow inherently lethal.

[Nightshade]

I'd put him in a life and death situation where he has no choice but to roleplay the code vs. killing. For example, have a DNPC be held hostage by a homicidal lunatic who just might have to be killed to prevent killing the dNPC. You could also amplify one of his other disads, like turning a watched into a full Hunted, increase the frequency of a vulnerability or susceptability, etc.

 

You could also state that if he isn't going to roleplay his disads that you aren't interested in having him in your game... That's always a last resort, IMO, but sometimes you have to take a stand.

 

Nightshade

[Vondy]

First - Code Versus Killing comes in many sizes and flavors. It sounds like his is the 5-10 point variety, not the full on 20. If this is the case it should be repriced and the player should be asked to make up the points by either 1) taking an additional disad, or 2) sacrificing experience until its paid off (like an interest free loan).

 

Second - On the rare occasions I've had to deal with this I've told the player they can play their disadvantages or I will remove it AND THE POINTS THEY GOT FOR IT from their character sheet, requiring them to pare their character down.

 

Its seemed to... motivate them.

[Kristopher]

A "Code vs Killing" that allows a character to hold a victim in place so that the character's teammate can kill him isn't worth any points at all.

 

The character can take the Disad "Prone to Moral Weaseling and Lawyer-like Thought Processes," however. Or maybe that's the character.

[Chris Goodwin]

He obviously didn't think he wasn't playing out of character. That sounds like something of a separate issue from someone taking points for a disad and deliberately not roleplaying it. I have no idea what you can do about that except in-game consequences. He held the guy so someone else could kill him, he goes up the river for murder.

[Killer Shrike]

I believe that is called "ACCESSORY TO MURDER". He can explain his line of reasoning in front of a Jury of his peers. I dont think "Reasonable Doubt" would apply....

[zornwil]

I think the best thing is to mutate the disadvantage appropriately. Perhaps he gets a reputation or perhaps, if he does this again, he starts to develop an "instrument of death" disad. This can't/shouldn't be against his will - you should discuss a bit how his character feels/acts, or make a judgement and then present him with your idea on how the disad really works/what it is.

 

I ran a game where a character went from a CVK to being veangeful (not murderous) because he couldn't control his own anger at some villains' murderous actions on him and would launch attacks that were either deadly or in support of others' deadly attacks. The player didn't think about it, he just reacted. So I explained to him here's how I wanted his character to "grow" - or he could buy off the disad. It was more interesting for him to have the retribution disad and he played it that way.

[Fur Face]

As far as CVK, that is something that really needs to be defined before the campaign begins, because although we all like to think we know what it means, these boards are proof that it means different things to different people, based upon their backgrounds and beliefs. Even then, when playing an RPG people tend to want to do things they would never consider doing in real life, so everything must be qualified.

 

I agree with all of the solutions presented, I suppose the severity depends upon how the GM views the players actions (or lack of them). Personally, unless the GM would tell me it would be a campaign requirement, I wouldn't take CVK, because sometimes lethal force is all you've got left to stop someone. Heck, even though old Seeker didn't have resisitent DEF, he also didn't have CVK.

[Demonsong]

The world that the game is taking place in is some what different than the normal champion’s world. Think Shadow Run or Rifts, in a run down, free for all, part of a Mega City where government cops and corporation security just don’t go. It’s the bad lands of the city, a modern DMZ, where if you have the power or guns you can get away with murder and no one is going to call the police because there are no police to call.

 

I do like the unluck thing; it is defiantly worth thinking about.

 

And as I right this, maybe a there is a team of vigilantes types that might be noticing the groups activities….hummm.

 

Demonsong

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Demonsong

The world that the game is taking place in is some what different than the normal champion’s world. Think Shadow Run or Rifts, in a run down, free for all, part of a Mega City where government cops and corporation security just don’t go. It’s the bad lands of the city, a modern DMZ, where if you have the power or guns you can get away with murder and no one is going to call the police because there are no police to call.

 

I do like the unluck thing; it is defiantly worth thinking about.

 

And as I right this, maybe a there is a team of vigilantes types that might be noticing the groups activities….hummm.

 

Demonsong

A code vs killing in such a game is a significant disadvantage because it is assumed that people will kill. As I noted in the lengthy CvK debate that took place a few weeks ago, IMO Code vs Killing is mostly a 4 color concept which isnt really restrictive in a classic silver age style campaign because it is assumed that people arent going to kill. Conversely in campaigns where killing is commonplace, like Fantasy, Cyberpunk, Post Apoc, Space War, etc it can really hamper a character and thus is Disadvantageous.

 

If a player takes it and tries to weasle around it, bump into down to Common Moderate or Uncommon Strong to show its not very binding. If the player cant even roleplay a mild conviction (regularly kills or uses indiscriminant force), just transmute it into a different disadvantage as the character becomes more hardened to killing. You might even transmute it directly into Casual Killer. They once (supposedly) had scruples, but once they started killing they lost all respect for life and do it without hesitation thereafter.

[Killer Shrike]

As an addendum to the above -- if they take Casual Killer, then that has to be Disadvantageous for the setting as well. In some really gritty campaigns, Casual Killer is no more disadvantageous than Code vs Killing is in 4 Color Silver Age Comic Code-esque games. If Casual Killer has no downside in the campaign its not worth a Dis. In that case a bad Rep (Savage Killer) might be more appropriate -- people dont want to be around him. A positive Rep (No one to be trifled with) or PRE only to cause Fear is a good corrolary to this as well to reflect the benefits of scaring the bezesus out of everyone.

[tesuji]

Ok first off, the player has shown you in play the scope of his disad. Take that at its face value.

 

Now, revisit the disad and how it was priced, specifically the FREQUENCY. With this new definition it seems to me to definitely fit into rare or uncommon and not common. if you gave him common or he took common, exmplain your misunderstanding and adjust the points. Give him a chance between games to refigure the points.

 

Then, when it does come up in game, its no longer a roleplaying issue. if he decides to act against the CVK, you tell him to make an ego roll as defined in the lim. Psych lim is a lim because when the character decides to go against it he runs into a case of maybe he can, maybe he cannot based on a die roll. The drawback is loss of control of your character's actions.

 

Get the scope defined, which has apparently now happened, assign proper value and simply enforce the game mechanics described in the trait.

 

For my money, I would have made him make an ego roll at the time with DC based on the strength of the lim, if he made it fine, if not then i run his character for a few phases until thelife and death threat was over.

 

Then, after the session, we discuss this issue and if his view of the disad disagrees with the points he took, I give him the opportunity to revalue the disad.

 

These issues are always going to occur at various times when the loan sharking chargen pays you points ahead of time for problems that might come up later. So you just need to handle them consistently and smoothly IN PLAY TIME and get the "after the speedbump" discussion and solution stalled until later on after PLAY TIME so it doesn't disrupt the game.

[Killer Shrike]

Here is a link to a recent thread on this subject:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4942&perpage=20&highlight=Code%20vs%20Killing&pagenumber=2

[Farkling]

I personally favor the Unluck solution as a temporary patch, and I advise having th echaracter give you a list of situations he would and wouldn;t kill in. Bushido or Old West Codes against Killing still allowed the murder of certain types of people... (hmm....as did Nazi Codes vs Killing.... )

 

I also am a GM who feels free to let Disads migrate as the character changes and grows. If ArmorGuy starts researching how to adjust his defense against magnetic assaults by incorporating non-ferrous materials in his armor, I am perfectly willing to switch the Magnetics Vulnerability to something more apporpriate, perhaps a Sus to Heat or Physical Blows.

 

Now, for the EVIL application. Does the dead fellow have any surviving relatives ?? (and sometimes, female realtives are preferred in this case) With the MegaCorp description you supplied, I have a couple campaign ideas for you here.

 

1) Classic Comix Cliche #217:: Stolen power armor or experimental weapons used to capture or kill the murderers.

"I'm going to show you as much mercy as you showed my poor dead husband!" FRZZZP!!

 

2) Robocop. Judge Dredd. Or other formidable 20-30 pt hunters. (8-, limited by geography)

 

3) Reputation "Distrusted by the man on the street"

"Didja hear??? They killed my fixer's brother in law...he declared 'em persona non-grata"

 

4) The cops. Have them get into the life of the character with a fine tooth comb.

 

5) The spouse/relative variant also works with designed and activated killing machines or biogenetically engineered viruses (tagged to the DNA code of our perpetrators?). The necessary sample materials could be collected from any scene the heroes appeared at...or any hospital they were attended at.

 

6) Anything else dramatically appropriate. Hell, a telepath reading his mind would declare him guilty of accessory to murder based on your description. Think of the Disadvantages as guidelines...not rules of stone.

[Blue]

My players are exceptional at roleplaying their disadvantages. In fact sometimes it works to the detriment of the adventure because one guy or another refuses to participate in the scenario because it would work counter to his personality!

 

Incidentally, I've gotten around the problem of Heroes roleplaying themselves OUT of a scenario by allowing them to have multiple team members, but only one can participate in any given scenario (The others presumably off fighting crime elsewhere).

[parody]

Player 1: "Technophobe refuses to get into the rocket ship. He goes back to his hideyhole and makes paper dolls or something. Scissors aren't too technological, are they?"

GM: "No. I think he can handle scissors. Ok, that's fine. It's about then that your other character, Jet-Guy finishes his other duties and shows up for action. He likes rockets, doesn't he?"

Player 1: "Does he ever! But I'll need to roll for his claustraphobia..."

[/parody]

[RadeFox]

Talk to him?

 

Call me old fashioned, and while I love some of the in-game mechanics to handle this, what about Talking to the Player??

 

He made the character, chose the Disad's. This is sorta a contract with the GM, and if he ain't playing it right/fiddling with the letter of the disad over the spirit, then he's not playing the character YOU as the GM allowed him to play. Have him sit out a session if he don't get the idea, with the IN game story being legal troubles or jail time for his acts. Though, the ones who DID the killing while he held the poor sap, would also have to indicted. Hell, run em both through the legal system. In most worlds, heros are not given a license to kill, even if they are backed by the authorites.

[Mentor]

How about replacing with new Disad the old Disad the player refuses to adhere to. If he ignores Code vs. Killing, the he picks up Psych. Lim: Hesitates to Attack or Psych Lim: Berserk and you the GM roll the dice and enforce the result. A few game of getting cold cocked because he lost an attack phase or beating up the bystander, and the recalcitrant player might elect to play the Code vs Killing properly.

 

Our games players are excellent roleplayers and so self policing when it comes to adherence to character concept that we never seem to run into these kinds of abuses. Our game is an "invitational", so the rogues we have gamed with previously don't get invited to the Europa 2000 campaign.

[Mentor]

Re: Talk to him?

 

Originally posted by RadeFox

Call me old fashioned, and while I love some of the in-game mechanics to handle this, what about Talking to the Player??

 

He made the character, chose the Disad's. This is sorta a contract with the GM, and if he ain't playing it right/fiddling with the letter of the disad over the spirit, then he's not playing the character YOU as the GM allowed him to play. Have him sit out a session if he don'y get the idea, with the IN game story being legal troubles or jail time for his acts. Though, the ones who DID the killing while he held the poor sap, would also have to indicted. Hell, run em both through the legal system. In most worlds, heros are not given a license to kill, even if they are backed by the authorites.

Yeah, let them face the real world consequences.

[Agent X]

I like D-Man's approach. I don't care if this guy earnestly thought CVK worked this way. Bottom Line: That version of CVK has got to go. Player needs to choose new disads to keep his points or toss out those points he received from the CVK. Simple, dramatic, convincing.

[RadeFox]

IMO< Simply forcing a rewrite of the character mid-storyline is the poorest choice. It will smash a lot of suspension of disbelief for the players, and ruin a lot of continuity in the chronicle.

 

Granted, a change may be in order, but PLAY the change out. Arrest the killer and his 'innocent' accomplice. Put 'em on trial, give 'em a sentence of 'enforced' community service (new disad to replace the defunct CVK!), complete with a tether if need be. The looks on the errant players face would be priceless, when he realizes the consequences of his (in)actions!