Autofire: What's the point?

[Elysea]

Is there an advantage to Autofire that I'm not seeing?

 

You make one attack roll for the entire volley. You hit with one shot for every 2 you make your attack roll by, after the first hit. So basically, when you Autofire, you take a -2 to your OCV for every shot after the first. Against a target with comparable CV, you'll have to roll very well to land more than 3 shots.

 

So why would someone buy Autofire past the +1/4 value? By the time you're firing 4 shots or more (+1/2 Advantage or more), your chances of hitting your target are slim to none. On top of that, the target gets to apply its defenses against every shot. Taking the points spent on that +1/2 advantage and turning them into more raw dice of damage or buying something like Armor Piercing seems like a much more efficient means of getting damage through to a target.

 

Versus a target with low DCV and low defenses, I can see the point of throwing three 8d6 EBs instead of one 10d6. Otherwise, Autofire won't help you hit a high DCV martial artist and won't help you CON-stun a high PD/ED brick. So is there a time and a place for Autofire, besides beating up on hapless mentalists?

 

If OCV and DCV are equal, the chances of hitting a target are roughly 50%. If I Autofire ten shots at someone, my chances of hitting them at all aren't improved -- I still stand a 50% chance of completely missing.

 

Am I interpreting the rules incorrectly? Is there something I'm not seeing? I apologize if this is a bit of a rant; I really would appreciate it if someone explained to me that I'm wrong and there is something I'm not seeing.

[Kristopher]

There are all sorts of other things you can do with an Autofire. If no one else details them before I get home tonight, I'll do it. But I bet someone else will beat me to it.

[MarkusDark]

Combine Autofire with AOE 1 hex and it can get ugly.

 

As for other uses, I'm not that cheese.... er, creative.

[Elysea]

I can see the point of Autofire with AE or Explosion powers, yes. Or if your OCV is incredibly tremendous enough to to reliably land multiple hits. Is that it though? Does Autofire need other "helper" advantages or abilities to make it worthwhile?

[Elysea]

I just fail to understand why my odds of missing Bruce Lee with one bullet are the same as my odds of missing Bruce Lee when I empty a sub-machine gun at him.

 

You know, other than the fact that Bruce Lee is Bruce Lee.

 

Let me rephrase: I don't understand why my chances of completely missing an oil drum at 20 paces with one bullet are the same as my chances of completely missing an oil drum at 20 paces when I empty a sub-machine gun at it.

 

There, that's better. One should never invoke the name of Bruce Lee when arguing that firearms should be more accurate than they are...

[MarkusDark]

Originally posted by Elysea

I can see the point of Autofire with AE or Explosion powers, yes. Or if your OCV is incredibly tremendous enough to to reliably land multiple hits. Is that it though? Does Autofire need other "helper" advantages or abilities to make it worthwhile?

 

My knowledge of the rules is slightly limited, but I remember (at least in 4th ed) that there were certain advantages. Such as you can 'spread' your attack without losing any power to the blast. Two targets standing next to each other get two rounds each. As well as there are other powers as mentioned before that if you add Autofire to it makes them a bit more buff as well (dunno what the are though). Even if you hit with only two shots, it could be well worth the advantage to do the damage twice to him. I am also trying to remember if Autofire adds to Knockback or not.

[Chris Goodwin]

Prior to 4th edition, Autofire defaulted to 10 shots, and gave you +4 OCV for 10 or +2 OCV for 5.

 

Aside from that, you use Autofire to simulate weapons that, in the source, shoot multiple projectiles with one pull of the trigger.

[Killer Shrike]

The main advantage to Autofire is vs multiple opponents. The penalty is much less severe to hit several people standing right next to each other. Its good for dropping goons.

 

It used to be nasty in combination with other advantages, like Penetrating, NND, AoE: 1 Hex, or when applied to unusual attack powers but the new rule doubling the cost of Reduced Endurance for an Autofire attack and requiring an additional +1 advantage if the attack is not vs PD or ED or doesnt need to make a normal Attack Roll (which includes all AoE attacks) nerfs that right out of the gate.

 

So in 5th, its good vs goons and low-DCV opponents and not so good vs individual opponents of equivalent ability.

[RadeFox]

Aye, Autofire can be used to hose many targets at once using a sort of ranged sweep. Yes, you do need to have a really good OCV for autofire to be at its best, but as for supers shooting at agents, it should be no problem for the average super to clear one or two agents an action with a decent autofire attack.

 

Second, your issue of hitting a martial artist with autofire is a best/worst type of scenario. Martial artists are ALL about NOT getting hit, with prolly some of the best DCV's in the game usually. Autofire isnt the best attack to use on them, unless, as posted above, it is with a 1 hex aoe mod. Heehee, keep jumping pajama boy!!

 

Auto-fire is for whittling a bricks stun down, especially if hes at a DCV penalty, or for use agaisnt normals and agents. Another good use, is quickly chewing through a barrier or entangle, they have 0 DCV, so get blown to itty bitty pieces pretty quick.

[JMHammer]

Autofire and To-Hit Chance / OCV

 

Well, when building a weapon this can be represented by purchasing levels for the weapon. I'm really not sure how to do this but it ought to depend on the weapon. A weapon with a hard recoil might not give you any more chance to hit with a 5-shot burst than you'd have with a 1-shot burst, although it would be scarier for the target. On the other hand, a recoilless weapon like a laser rifle should benefit in a big way for each shot fired.

 

Maybe add this to a typical weapon:

 

+1 OCV, linked to Autofire, must fire at least a two-shot burst at a single target

+1 OCV, linked to Autofire, must fire at least a four-shot burst at a single target

+1 OCV, linked to Autofire, must fire at least an eight-shot burst at a single target

...etc, with the number of shots in the burst doubling with each successive +1 OCV. Each successive OCV level should cost less because each one relies on a greater amount of ammo being expended.

 

Actual cost of these levels would depend on the exact nature of the weapon (OIF, OAF, other factors).

 

I suppose one could allow those OCV levels to apply against individual targets when attacking multiple targets with a single burst of autofire, but the attacker must allocate the number of shots he is applying to each of the targets, gets bonuses above the usual multi-target autofire penalties only for those targets which are the subject of more than one shot, but can still hit each target only once.

 

And yes, I agree that any untrained shmoe picking up a tommy gun can probably grease someone - at least at close range - a lot easier than if he picks up an M-1 Garand.

 

John H

[Pattern Ghost]

Why would you want to give OCV bonuses to an autofire weapon? Against a single target, chances to hit decrease after the first round due to the shots stringing out. So, the OCV bonus wouldn't work to model RL AF weapons all that accurately.

 

Autofire is good for busting crowds of people up, clearing rooms, etc. It's best for close-in work.

[JohnTaber]

Hi Pattern Ghost: I don't agree. If I shoot 10 rounds at someone my chances of hitting them are higher than if I just shoot 1 round.

 

Saying that I STILL use the 4th edition OCV benefits. I do NOT find them unbalancing at all.

3 shots +0 OCV

5 shots +2 OCV

10 shots or more +4 OCV

 

The three shots option lets you hit the person multiple times so at least that is something but arguable it should give at least +1 OCV...

 

Just my take...

[Gary]

Average number of hits with a +/- OCV vs DCV autofire:

 

One shot Three shots Five shots 10 shots

-8 0.005 0.005 0.005 0.005

-7 0.019 0.019 0.019 0.019

-6 0.046 0.051 0.051 0.051

-5 0.093 0.111 0.111 0.111

-4 0.162 0.213 0.213 0.213

-3 0.259 0.370 0.370 0.370

-2 0.375 0.583 0.588 0.588

-1 0.500 0.852 0.870 0.870

+0 0.625 1.162 1.213 1.213

+1 0.741 1.500 1.611 1.611

+2 0.838 1.838 2.046 2.051

+3 0.907 2.148 2.500 2.519

+4 0.954 2.417 2.954 3.005

+5 0.981 2.630 3.389 3.500

+6 0.995 2.787 3.787 4.000

+7 0.995 2.884 4.125 4.495

 

Anybody know how to format this properly?

[Snarf]

Originally posted by Elysea

Let me rephrase: I don't understand why my chances of completely missing an oil drum at 20 paces with one bullet are the same as my chances of completely missing an oil drum at 20 paces when I empty a sub-machine gun at it.

Maybe it's now supposed to simulate adventure fiction instead of reality. It's common to see some movie where a dozen machine guns are unloaded without effect. Machine guns end up being about as accurate as pistols, except when it comes to wiping out a horde of nameless stuntmen.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Gary

Anybody know how to format this properly? Average number of hits with a +/- OCV vs DCV autofire:

OCV vs DCV	One shot	Three shots	Five shots	10 shots
-8	0.005	0.005	0.005	0.005
-7	0.019	0.019	0.019	0.019
-6	0.046	0.051	0.051	0.051
-5	0.093	0.111	0.111	0.111
-4	0.162	0.213	0.213	0.213
-3	0.259	0.370	0.370	0.370
-2	0.375	0.583	0.588	0.588
-1	0.500	0.852	0.870	0.870
+0	0.625	1.162	1.213	1.213
+1	0.741	1.500	1.611	1.611
+2	0.838	1.838	2.046	2.051
+3	0.907	2.148	2.500	2.519
+4	0.954	2.417	2.954	3.005
+5	0.981	2.630	3.389	3.500
+6	0.995	2.787	3.787	4.000
+7	0.995	2.884	4.125	4.495

[Lord Liaden]

IMHO the most generally useful level of Advantage for Autofire is +1/4, granting 2-3 shots per Phase. You don't lose too much in the way in power via reduction in damage dice, and your chances of multiple hits are pretty good. At higher levels the attack is more useful as a specialized attack vs. low-DCV, low-Defense targets such as agents, although it is true that Autofire "cheeses up" faster than any other Advantage when combined with the likes of Penetrating, NND etc.

 

However, don't forget that there other options available to make Autofire far more effective without additional Advantages. Consider the optional Suppression Fire combat maneuver (FREd p. 263): you can "hose down" an area with shots so that anyone entering it is automatically hit no matter what their DCV is. Then there are the additional Autofire Skills on p. 33 (with accompanying sidebar descriptions on p. 34): buying one or two of those will definitely enhance the effect of any Autofire attacks. "Rapid Autofire" Skill can whittle down an opponent remarkably quickly, while "Accurate Sprayfire" can make you very effective against multiple opponents, and a holy terror vs. agents.

[Tom]

Originally posted by JohnTaber

Hi Pattern Ghost: I don't agree. If I shoot 10 rounds at someone my chances of hitting them are higher than if I just shoot 1 round.

 

 

With an unstabalized autofire weapon, no.

 

Automatic weapons fire faster than the user can recover from the recoil. Only the first shot is actually aimed. Every other round goes where ever the barrel happens to be pointed at the time...

 

Granted this is real life, and fiction tends to work more, dramatically...

 

Incidentally, there is a reason the military changed from the 'full auto' of the M16A1 to the '3 round burst' of the M16A2. It was a waste of ammo...

[Killer Shrike]

Not only was it a waste of ammo, but friendly fire casualties were higher, and the overall ratio of shots fired to enemy casualties was lower.

 

 

There is also a difference between burst fire and rapid fire in real life, and the Rapid Fire combat option is always a consideration for non-Autofire attacks IIRC.

[Guest Keneton]

Advantages of Autofire. . .

 

Anyone that Played Unearthed Mechana and faced Speed Pounder and or Sly Fortune knows the advantage of Autofire!

 

Remember just becuase you can shoot 5 or 10 times doesnt mean you have to, but when you land a good one you will understand!

 

[Vondy]

Lay down supressing fire! Lay down supressing fire!

 

You'd be amazed at what a few agents can accomplish with this rule.

[Pattern Ghost]

Tom made my point.

 

Except that 3 shot burst is utterly useless b/c it can't be used for supressing fire or for clearing rooms, and the second and third shots still have the recoil problem. When I was in Berlin, we had to maintain a rack full of A-1's for our personal security detail guys b/c they absolutely had to have full auto (busting crowds) for their mission. Of course, we field guys did, too, as we were supposed to be training for urban combat.

 

The autofire rules for supressing fire, etc., and the OCV penalties do a pretty fair job of simulating the advantages and drawbacks of autofire.

[Pattern Ghost]

I should point out, too, that the recoil problem is greatly amplified at range. At very close range, a fraction of an inch of the muzzel being out of alignment doesn't translate to much, but over distance, it adds up fast.

 

Now, an M-60 on a bipod or tripod...different story. M-2 (50 cal), even better. But it's the stabilization that makes the difference.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Pattern Ghost

I should point out, too, that the recoil problem is greatly amplified at range. At very close range, a fraction of an inch of the muzzel being out of alignment doesn't translate to much, but over distance, it adds up fast.

 

Now, an M-60 on a bipod or tripod...different story. M-2 (50 cal), even better. But it's the stabilization that makes the difference.

Gimme a Ma Duece any day. Hoo-rah!

[Fur Face]

In 4th edition is was people who were skilled with autofire weapons that were really scar, because they would buy 5 pt combat skill levels then take the limitation "only to counteract autofire penalties (-1)". At this rate 10 points would guarantee that your shots first three shots are going to be very effective, which is a very accurate short burst.

 

But, outside of reasons others have already posted, like hitting multiple opponents, I wouldn't buy autofire over 1-3, just because of the statistics.

 

Right now you can do nearly the same thing with the new Sweep maneuver, you just take a DCV penalty. Autofire doesn't require a DCV penalty, so you'd probably be better off with autofire if you have a low CV.

[Heroman]

Can you use PSLs vs Autofire OCV mods? If so, this could help reflect extremely accurate autofire weapons.

 

-Heroman