Do you think these are legitimate Power Builds

[rjcurrie]

I am currently working on updating the character sheets for SuperSquad America and I have been looking at the Mysterious Mr. Z's ability to trick people into believing that they are being hit by an attack of some sort. Currently, this is represented by 2 slots in his multipower:

 

So Real It Hurts: Energy Blast 9 1/2d6, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Variable Special Effects (Any SFX; +1/2); Target must have a brain to fool (-1/4), Target's Mental DEF adds to PD/ED (-1/4)

 

Where Did That Piano Come From?: Energy Blast 7d6, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Variable Special Effects (Any SFX; +1/2), Indirect (Any origin, any direction; +3/4); Target must have a brain to fool (-1/4), Target's Mental DEF adds to PD/ED (-1/4)

 

My question is this. Do you think these are legitmate builds for this ability?

[Comic]

Re: Do you think these are legitimate Power Builds

 

.. did someone scrap the Mental Illusion power?

 

I think builds that use advantages and limitations to duplicate the effects of existing bare powers should be avoided.

 

I might suggest an advantage on Mental Illusion similar to the 'telepathic' advantage on Mind Control. For +1/2 to the Illusion, the attack power, but not the attacker gets a telepathic sense of what really hurts (or most convinces, or most affects) the target and projects that into the mind. This way you build something weaker and less versatile than Mental Illusion linked to Telepathy, but more like the way many such mental attacks are depicted.

[Zed-F]

Re: Do you think these are legitimate Power Builds

 

It depends on the SFX of Mr. Z's powers, but Mental Illusions sounds like a good place to start. I mean, those are nearly 100AP attacks. For that you could get up to 20d6 of Mental Illusions, which would be a heck of a lot more effective than a small EB.

 

I wouldn't rule it out entirely, though. If Mr. Z's powers are more centered around the Images power than being a mentalist, then something like this might be more suitable than Mental Illusions.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Do you think these are legitimate Power Builds

 

I guess it depends on whether you look at a person's senses as being mental or not. In this case, the attacks are perceived by everyone in the area, although only the target feels the effects. For example, if Mr. Z could use the Where Did That Piano Come From? attack to make what seems to be a piano (or anvil, or anything) appear above the target's head and fall on him, doing damage.

 

I guess my conundrum is that if Mr. Z was a mage who could create items out of thin air and drop them on people, many people would agree with the build (well, minus the lims about needing a brain and getting to add Mental DEF). But because the power is somewhat mental in nature, almost as many will disagree and think that it needs to be done with Menal Powers.

[Zed-F]

Re: Do you think these are legitimate Power Builds

 

I think it would probably be more effective to just use mental powers, but with the right SFX, there's nothing wrong with doing it that way.

[gojira]

Re: Do you think these are legitimate Power Builds

 

I guess my conundrum is that if Mr. Z was a mage who could create items out of thin air and drop them on people,

 

What's the variable SFX here? I see only one...

[rjcurrie]

Re: Do you think these are legitimate Power Builds

 

I use variable SFX because the attack can appear to be anything. For example, it could be fire, ice, etc. Because the target perceives the attack as real, his defenses apply as though it were. Similarly, vulnerabilities would apply as appropriate.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Do you think these are legitimate Power Builds

 

You don't need Mental Powers at all, those are fine as they are.

 

The problem with Mental Illusions that cause damage is not only to the effect have to insanely high but I don't think these Powers need rely on getting past the Characters EGO.

 

It's a mistake to think that Mental Powers can or should only work against EGO and Mental Defense. Illusions so real they inflict physical damage can be built with Energy Blast - especially if the only thing the illusion can do is inflict damage.

 

If the illusion has more broad applications (like making someone think there's innocent people all around) that would be Mental Illusions hands down.

[Maccabe]

Re: Do you think these are legitimate Power Builds

 

Why not Mental Illusions? Major changes +10 mod (cause STUN)

This only requires EGO+20 to be effective, 9d6 would do that nicely

You did mention FOOLING people into thinking they have been hit so thats why I thought Mental Illusions.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Do you think these are legitimate Power Builds

 

You don't need Mental Powers at all, those are fine as they are.

 

The problem with Mental Illusions that cause damage is not only to the effect have to insanely high but I don't think these Powers need rely on getting past the Characters EGO.

 

It's a mistake to think that Mental Powers can or should only work against EGO and Mental Defense. Illusions so real they inflict physical damage can be built with Energy Blast - especially if the only thing the illusion can do is inflict damage.

 

If the illusion has more broad applications (like making someone think there's innocent people all around) that would be Mental Illusions hands down.

 

Yeah, he has other powers for the broader applications. These are his primary damage causing abilities.

[Balabanto]

Re: Do you think these are legitimate Power Builds

 

You might also want to consider:

 

So Real it Hurts II: 12d6 Indirect Energy Blast, OIF (Focus of Opportunity), object moves to interact with target directly.

 

In this case, the piano is already there.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Do you think these are legitimate Power Builds

 

You might also want to consider:

 

So Real it Hurts II: 12d6 Indirect Energy Blast, OIF (Focus of Opportunity), object moves to interact with target directly.

 

In this case, the piano is already there.

 

That removes it from the realm of Illusions and into Telekenesis.

[caris]

Re: Do you think these are legitimate Power Builds

 

OK, couple of questions:

 

Do you use classes of mind, and if so how would they interact with these powers?

 

Is Dex based CV better for targeting this power better conceptually than Ego based CV?

[Balabanto]

Re: Do you think these are legitimate Power Builds

 

Actually, GA, it doesn't, because in this case, he CAN'T use the power if there's no Piano there. It just means that he has to expend END to generate a solid version of the piano that deals the damage.

 

If someone DESTROYS the piano, he can't use the Piano to do damage anymore.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Do you think these are legitimate Power Builds

 

I like Balabanto's idea of adding a slot to take advantage of the existing environment. If the character's luck can take advantage of something that's already there, the character can do more damage since less "luck energy" is used reconfiguring the environment.

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Do you think these are legitimate Power Builds

 

Why do the powers listed have personal immunity? Am I missing something? Also wouldn't adding the limitation Visable to Mental Illusions mean everyone could see them?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Do you think these are legitimate Power Builds

 

Why do the powers listed have personal immunity? Am I missing something? Also wouldn't adding the limitation Visable to Mental Illusions mean everyone could see them?

 

To make the attack immune to Missile Reflection maybe?

[rjcurrie]

Re: Do you think these are legitimate Power Builds

 

You might also want to consider:

 

So Real it Hurts II: 12d6 Indirect Energy Blast, OIF (Focus of Opportunity), object moves to interact with target directly.

 

In this case, the piano is already there.

 

Do you mean that he makes it look like an existing object in the environment moves to do damage to the target?

[rjcurrie]

Re: Do you think these are legitimate Power Builds

 

OK, couple of questions:

 

Do you use classes of mind, and if so how would they interact with these powers?

 

Is Dex based CV better for targeting this power better conceptually than Ego based CV?

 

The "must have a brain" Limitation should probably be more specific -- the target must be able to perceive the attack and mentally process that the attack could damage him. The Mental DEF adding to PD/ED is meant as a way of allowing people with stronger wills to better resist the effects of the illusion.

 

The best way to think of these attacks are as "images" that do damage. Images are targeted with DEX-based.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Do you think these are legitimate Power Builds

 

Actually, GA, it doesn't, because in this case, he CAN'T use the power if there's no Piano there. It just means that he has to expend END to generate a solid version of the piano that deals the damage.

 

If someone DESTROYS the piano, he can't use the Piano to do damage anymore.

 

I'm really not following what you're talking about here at all.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Do you think these are legitimate Power Builds

 

I like Balabanto's idea of adding a slot to take advantage of the existing environment. If the character's luck can take advantage of something that's already there' date=' the character can do more damage since less "luck energy" is used reconfiguring the environment.[/quote']

 

Once again, I am somewhat puzzled by what is being suggested here and what you mean by "luck energy".

[rjcurrie]

Re: Do you think these are legitimate Power Builds

 

Why do the powers listed have personal immunity? Am I missing something? Also wouldn't adding the limitation Visable to Mental Illusions mean everyone could see them?

 

Because Mr. Z. knows his attacks are not real, he cannot be affected by them if they are reflected back at him.

 

Once again, these are more like "Images" that do damage.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Do you think these are legitimate Power Builds

 

It's a legitimate build, no question. I have no problem whatsoever with doing it this way. Then again, I've been involved in long discussions about whether, mechanically, doing damage should be part of the Mental Illusions Power.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Do you think these are legitimate Power Builds

 

Perhaps rather than "Mental DEF adds to PD/ED", maybe there should be a limitation that a target makes a PER Roll at -5 (the same modifier as his Images power), then target takes no damage.

 

While I could possibly create these powers with Mental Illusions, there are a couple of reasons why I don't want to.

 

First of all, I see them as being more related to Images than to Mental Illusions.

 

Second of all, these powers are for a PC in a convention game and Mental Illusions would require a lot more die-rolling and counting, particularly, if the player decided to change targets often. They would need to roll the effect of the Mental Illusion and then based on that roll, they would then have to roll the damage itself. Some of this could be gotten around by using Standard Effect for the Mental Illusions, but Mental Illusions still feels wrong for this ability.

[caris]

Re: Do you think these are legitimate Power Builds

 

The "must have a brain" Limitation should probably be more specific -- the target must be able to perceive the attack and mentally process that the attack could damage him. The Mental DEF adding to PD/ED is meant as a way of allowing people with stronger wills to better resist the effects of the illusion.

 

The best way to think of these attacks are as "images" that do damage. Images are targeted with DEX-based.

 

OK, I'm even more confused now. If these are just sensory input, I'm not sure that I would allow it in general, possibly as STUN only , but I am not the GM you are.

 

I would drop both the "must have a brain" and the "Mental Defense adds" limitation, and replace them with things that better reflect that these are sensory illusion. The PER is a good idea. I'd put in must be able to percieve the attack, and something about not having a sense that would let the target know it is an illusion. For example, if the basic Images power the you are treating this as an expression of does not cover Radar, than someone with Radar would realize that the baseball flying toward his head isn't real and not take damage.