combat calculation

[steph]

What the formul or method you use for your combat ? the book said the method is you have to roll below 11+ocv-(dcv enemy) me i use this one :total ocv+3d6-10=dcv (you touch) what is yours?

stef

excuse my english not my first language

[Sidume]

Re: combat calculation

 

You make it sound complicated. Try it this way.

 

Determine OCV & DCV. Compare. Note the difference.

 

If there is no difference, your target number is 11.

 

If the higher number is DCV, subtract that number from 11. That's what you need to roll (or below) to connect.

 

If the higher number is OCV, add that number to 11.

[Bloodstone]

Re: combat calculation

 

Many GM's don't let the players know what the targets DCV is though...

[ghost-angel]

Re: combat calculation

 

I use 11 + OCV + Modifiers - 3D6 = Highest DCV Hit.

[RPMiller]

Re: combat calculation

 

I use the same one g-a does. It seems the most logical and fastest to calculate and makes it easy for the GM to fudge here and there if desired.

[Silbeg]

Re: combat calculation

 

I use 11 + OCV + Modifiers - 3D6 = Highest DCV Hit.

 

I use the same one g-a does. It seems the most logical and fastest to calculate and makes it easy for the GM to fudge here and there if desired.

 

Agreed. This is probably the easiest calculation. And, as GM, you don't have to disclose the opponent's DCV. Of course, a savvy PC will be able to figure out the DCV of a target in a short time.

 

PC: Hmm... I just missed against a max DCV of 8, but I hit last phase against a DCV of 7. I wonder if that villain has a DCV of 7?

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: combat calculation

 

I use 11 + OCV + Modifiers - 3D6 = Highest DCV Hit.

 

another one who uses this method.

Although, for psycological reasons (number over 20 getting to be difficult for some people) we do

 

(11-3d6)+OCV

 

A single digit add or subtract from OCV seems faster for people.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: combat calculation

 

Many GM's don't let the players know what the targets DCV is though...

 

I tried this once, but discovered that it was too big of a pain in the butt to deal with. Also, as I've said before, a player who knows the game and pays attention can determine a target's DCV within one or two after the first phase. "DEX 23, Thunderman goes ..." means DCV 8 base.

[Edsel]

Re: combat calculation

 

I use the standard 11 + OCV - DCV = to hit number method. Of course since I have been playing this game since 1st Edition it seems second nature to me.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: combat calculation

 

As a player, I roll and subtract the result from my OCV + 11. I announce to the GM what DCV I hit.

 

"I hit a " OCV + 11 - (3d6) "."

[Rapier]

Re: combat calculation

 

In my head I always do 11 + OCV - ROLL. It's what I've been doing since I started and it's second nature.

 

It's only recently that I was introduced to the "Compare 11 Method." Roll 3d6. Subtract the roll from 11. Adjust OCV by the difference.

 

Example: Roll 3d6. Result is 9. 11 - 9 = 2. You have hit (OCV + 2) DCV.

Example: Roll 3d6. Result is 14. 11 - 14 = -3. You have hit (OCV + -3) DCV.

 

I think that is probably the easiest method. If I hadn't become so used to the old method I would probably use Compare 11. Alas, I am too ingrained.

 

I'll also say, I've got a couple of players that still use To Hit Charts. Whatever works.

[RPMiller]

Re: combat calculation

 

Of course, I still think that the entire roll low thing should be inverted. Rolling high to succeed is just more natural and far more open ended especially for a Champions game where there should be some high rolls needed, but that is just my opinion and I don't want to derail the thread.

[archermoo]

Re: combat calculation

 

The way my brain actually processes it?

 

How far away from 11 is my roll. Either add or subtract that difference from my OCV, and that is the DCV I hit.

 

So I guess the formula would be OCV + (11-3d6) = DCV Hit.

 

And I've never understood the rolling high is a more "natural" thing. Unless one defines "natural" as "the method used by the game system that sells the most copies".

 

And I certainly don't see how rolling high is more "open ended". Unless you change the dice you use (which I have done for Hero), 3d6 has a bell curve range of 16 results. Neither end of the curve is more "open ended" than the other.

[RPMiller]

Re: combat calculation

 

And I've never understood the rolling high is a more "natural" thing. Unless one defines "natural" as "the method used by the game system that sells the most copies".

Not at all. Think about all the board games you ever played as a kid. Think about competition in general. High is always the way you want to go. Yes, with a few exceptions. There was a recent poll done on Live Journal by someone that was designing a new RPG and one of the questions that he asked was what feels more natural rolling high or rolling low? Rolling high was a landslide. One of the biggest questions that I get from new gamers all the time is "why do I want to roll high?". That tells me something.

And I certainly don't see how rolling high is more "open ended". Unless you change the dice you use (which I have done for Hero)' date=' 3d6 has a bell curve range of 16 results. Neither end of the curve is more "open ended" than the other.[/quote']

Because if you reverse the mechanic so that the numbers are added to the dice you can exceed 18, that is why. Just as an example, in the Action! System I've gotten numbers up into the high 20s. I think I even broke 30 once or twice with cinematic level characters. However, that uses a target number approach.

 

But as I stated I don't want to hijack or derail the thread. I'm fine with the way it currently works, but I think there is a reason why so many other games have the high roll as the goal. I just don't have a clue as to how you could change the Hero System to an open ended high rolling system without drastic changes to the mechanics and I for one have no desire to change the way things work.

[archermoo]

Re: combat calculation

 

Not at all. Think about all the board games you ever played as a kid. Think about competition in general. High is always the way you want to go. Yes' date=' with a few exceptions. There was a recent poll done on Live Journal by someone that was designing a new RPG and one of the questions that he asked was what feels more natural rolling high or rolling low? Rolling high was a landslide. One of the biggest questions that I get from new gamers all the time is "why do I want to roll high?". That tells me something.[/quote']

 

Polls done on a blogging site don't really tell me much. I've never had a problem with whatever approach the game I'm playing uses. I don't have any sort of personal investment in large numbers of pips (or small numbers) showing up on the dice. I'm more concerned with whether the result is where it needs to be.

 

Because if you reverse the mechanic so that the numbers are added to the dice you can exceed 18, that is why. Just as an example, in the Action! System I've gotten numbers up into the high 20s. I think I even broke 30 once or twice with cinematic level characters. However, that uses a target number approach.

 

But as I stated I don't want to hijack or derail the thread. I'm fine with the way it currently works, but I think there is a reason why so many other games have the high roll as the goal. I just don't have a clue as to how you could change the Hero System to an open ended high rolling system without drastic changes to the mechanics and I for one have no desire to change the way things work.

 

I'm still not sure what you mean by "open ended". I'm used to the term describing the mechanic in Rolemaster wherby on a D100 roll, if you roll 96-100 you roll again and add it to the initial result. Without adding a mechanic like that, regardless of how many numbers you add or subtract to the roll, you still only have a total of 16 possible unique results.

[RPMiller]

Re: combat calculation

 

Polls done on a blogging site don't really tell me much. I've never had a problem with whatever approach the game I'm playing uses. I don't have any sort of personal investment in large numbers of pips (or small numbers) showing up on the dice. I'm more concerned with whether the result is where it needs to be.

Considering how big of a pool of replies he got I have to give it some validity, but again, I don't care. I just use the rules as they are written unless someone offers a better solution.

I'm still not sure what you mean by "open ended". I'm used to the term describing the mechanic in Rolemaster wherby on a D100 roll, if you roll 96-100 you roll again and add it to the initial result. Without adding a mechanic like that, regardless of how many numbers you add or subtract to the roll, you still only have a total of 16 possible unique results.

Open ended meaning there is no minimum or maximum such as 3 or 18. I wasn't referring to the existing mechanic obviously when I stated you add numbers to the roll. Typically this would be something like roll+stat+skill.

[ghost-angel]

Re: combat calculation

 

Open ended meaning there is no minimum or maximum such as 3 or 18. I wasn't referring to the existing mechanic obviously when I stated you add numbers to the roll. Typically this would be something like roll+stat+skill.

 

Flipping to Roll Under means you also have to flip the result. Roll Under is just as open ended when you look at the results of the Roll as "How much did I roll under my skill?" and not the number of the dice.

 

As long as you let Skill Rolls and Modifiers allow the Target Under to climb it's just as open ended. (If you need to succeed by 15 I sure hope you pumped that Skill up, epic levels to be sure, but entirely possible).

 

KS: 50- for example, has a much higher level of success than 13-.

Not just chance of success, but level of success.

 

Which is an integral part of Hero that I do see several GMs (mostly newer GMs) ignore. They simply care if the roll succeeded, not by how much. Which is a symptom of Roll Over I've noticed.

 

In short - as long as you keep increasing the bonus for Roll Over and raise the skill level for Roll Under both are similarly opened ended.

[Bloodstone]

Re: combat calculation

 

I tried this once' date=' but discovered that it was too big of a pain in the butt to deal with. Also, as I've said before, a player who knows the game and pays attention can determine a target's DCV within one or two after the first phase. "DEX 23, Thunderman goes ..." means DCV 8 base. [/quote']

 

True to a point. I admit I always try to figure it out

 

But I find the DCV's of Speedsters and Martial Artist can change significantly from phase to phase. Really, that applies to anyone with levels, but I see it most with those two AT's, since they tend to depend on DCV for a significant portion of their overall defense. Lighting Reflexes also crops up with enough frequency that you can never be entirely sure what the targets real DEX is. And it's often tactically advisable to hold actions, so people don't go on their actual DEX scores anyhow.

 

That said, I don't really see how the one method is a pain in the neck though

[RPMiller]

Re: combat calculation

 

Which is an integral part of Hero that I do see several GMs (mostly newer GMs) ignore. They simply care if the roll succeeded, not by how much. Which is a symptom of Roll Over I've noticed.

 

In short - as long as you keep increasing the bonus for Roll Over and raise the skill level for Roll Under both are similarly opened ended.

I think I understand what you are talking about, but could you give me an example of the mechanics and the bonus for roll under that you are referring to? I don't recall ever seeing roll under as being an integral part. If you could refer me to a page in 5ER that I can review I would appreciate it. I've been playing since 1st ed and as such I may have missed or forgotten what you are referring to. I will definitely use it once I make sure I understand.

 

Thanks!

[ghost-angel]

Re: combat calculation

 

I think I understand what you are talking about, but could you give me an example of the mechanics and the bonus for roll under that you are referring to? I don't recall ever seeing roll under as being an integral part. If you could refer me to a page in 5ER that I can review I would appreciate it. I've been playing since 1st ed and as such I may have missed or forgotten what you are referring to. I will definitely use it once I make sure I understand.

 

Thanks!

 

What I was getting into was that with most Roll Over mechanics a characters skill is a bonus number added to the die. Which is what I was assuming you meant by open ended.

 

Similarly, in a Roll Under your skill is a target number you're trying to roll under. If you increase the skill roll, even beyond the highest number you can roll on the dice, you have a similarly open ended system.

 

Skill Rolls in Hero are no capped between 3 and 18 anymore than Skill Rolls in D20 are capped between 1 and 20.

 

As for bonuses in Hero System/Roll Under - I was referring to Skill Modifiers (time, tools, complimentary rolls, etc).

[Starwolf]

Re: combat calculation

 

A good example of the open endedness (is that a word?) of roll under, appears very commonly when using the TA spell system. All spells have RSR, usually at the -1/10 AP level. So a spell built on 100 Active points has a built in -10 to the RSR magic roll. A character that has a magic skill roll of 18- only has an 8- chance to "summon" the magic of this spell. Thus it is fairly common in my FH games for casters to quickly have magic skill rolls in the 20- to 30- range. This also doesn't even count other roll modifiers like time, distractions, etc. Plus I usually give effect bonuses for critical success rolls (the caster rolled more than 1/2 lower than needed), thus a highly skilled caster achieves critical success more often than less skilled casters.

[RPMiller]

Re: combat calculation

 

Skill Rolls in Hero are no capped between 3 and 18 anymore than Skill Rolls in D20 are capped between 1 and 20.

Hm... I really want to disagree with this, but for the life of me I don't know why, and I am unable to formulate what is pricking the back of my head. What you are saying is making perfect sense on one hand, but on the other it contradicts what I've thought about in the past when playing. I am going to give this some serious consideration as I think it is directly related to my impression of the rolling low system isn't open ended enough. Thanks for cluing me in on what is bugging me. Repped!

As for bonuses in Hero System/Roll Under - I was referring to Skill Modifiers (time, tools, complimentary rolls, etc).

Perfect! That is what I thought you were referring to and I'm happy to say that I use those quite often so I'm good in that regard.

>SNIP<

Plus I usually give effect bonuses for critical success rolls (the caster rolled more than 1/2 lower than needed), thus a highly skilled caster achieves critical success more often than less skilled casters.

We are definitely on the same page there, and I also give slight advantages to really great rolls. Often it is additional EXP (I give out fractional EXP on a continual basis in my games), but I will often reduce a modifier during the situation or give someone else a related bonus of some sort. It all depends on the situation of course.

 

Thanks guys! And apparently as much as I kept trying to not hijack the thread or derail it we succeeded. Sorry about that.

[archermoo]

Re: combat calculation

 

True to a point. I admit I always try to figure it out

 

But I find the DCV's of Speedsters and Martial Artist can change significantly from phase to phase. Really, that applies to anyone with levels, but I see it most with those two AT's, since they tend to depend on DCV for a significant portion of their overall defense. Lighting Reflexes also crops up with enough frequency that you can never be entirely sure what the targets real DEX is. And it's often tactically advisable to hold actions, so people don't go on their actual DEX scores anyhow.

 

That said, I don't really see how the one method is a pain in the neck though

 

Yea, I've played with Ref's who enjoy "randomly" changing around the bad guy's levels just to keep the players guessing. And for that matter having the bad guy take delays even to the point for forfiting segments to keep us guessing about their SPD.

 

I generally don't call out segment and dex when running a Hero combat. I'll just call out when it is the next person's action, and warn people when they are about to lose their held actions.

[archermoo]

Re: combat calculation

 

Hm... I really want to disagree with this, but for the life of me I don't know why, and I am unable to formulate what is pricking the back of my head. What you are saying is making perfect sense on one hand, but on the other it contradicts what I've thought about in the past when playing. I am going to give this some serious consideration as I think it is directly related to my impression of the rolling low system isn't open ended enough. Thanks for cluing me in on what is bugging me. Repped!

 

I'm guessing it is just a matter that you are used to looking at them differently. Rolling high can generate very large numbers in some systems, and some people seem to really like getting high numbers. What can get very high in Hero is the target number under which you are trying to roll, which frequently isn't looked at in the same way.

 

The Hero system makes it more obvious that even after adding all of the mods you still only have 16 (or 20 with d20) possible results available on any given roll.

 

To increase this number I have been known to use 3d10 for Hero instead, using Stat/5+15 for skills, and 17 for the base combat target number. Which of course makes it particularly appropriate for Dragaeran campaigns...

[RPMiller]

Re: combat calculation

 

First, this discussion should probably be continued in its own thread, but since I'm not a Mod I can't move it so I'll reply here. Sorry again steph.

 

Nope that isn't it, but perhaps it is related. Don't forget I've been playing Hero forever. I have also played many other systems. This isn't a specific system related thing. This is something else. Something about the statement you keep making about only having 16 or 20 possible results. I think. I mean I realize that the dice can only roll certain numbers, but the issue goes beyond that... Maybe it is a mood of the game thing?

 

Let's see. I'll use the Action! System as an example, but it would work with other systems as well, but A!S uses 3d6 so it is a comparable example I think. I'm just trying to work out where my thinking is going wrong on this. I'm sure I'm missing something.

 

If I set a Target Number of 30 (this would be a legendary feat) that you have to roll over using 3d6 in the Action! System I can get there if I roll an 18 + a stat of 6 + the skill level of 7, or some combination there of. A legendary feat in Hero would require a 3 to be rolled no matter what the modifiers were. In A!S as the GM I can continue increasing the TN for a particular feat and if the character is "super" enough they can still have a chance. For example, let's say that I set the TN to 40 knowing full well that it is highly improbable, but not impossible since they are "super". The character has a stat of 9 and they have, after various traits and skill levels are added together, a skill of 14 so they have a chance to succeed if they roll an 18. A truly legendary feat that will go down in the history books. Using the same character, they are going to automatically succeed, without rolling, at anything that has a TN of 26 or less. Typical TNs are in the range of 15 to 23. So we end up with a character that is truly "super" and can handle quite a lot that is thrown at them.

 

What would be an equivalent example in a Hero system game? Maybe that is where I'm having trouble? Hm... If the character's skill is 30-, and I apply a modifier of -27 then the succeed on a 3-. The same character is always going to succeed... wait. I think this may be it. There is always a chance of failure in Hero if an 18 is rolled regardless of skill level so you always have to roll since you have to get under a number. In A!S for example, you don't have to roll if the stat+skill+3 is greater than the TN. d20 doesn't have an automatic miss anymore either. Perhaps it isn't the direction of the dice after all. It is the chance of failure! So a house rule can easily fix that. Woohoo! I think I've got it figured out now. So a character with a 30- skill will automatically succeed with that skill as long as the roll needed is 18- giving them up to a -12 modifier that they can just shrug their shoulders at.