Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

[Maccabe]

Here are some things a character might do on any other phase but when it comes to phase 12 there are some questions about it mechanically.

1- Hold Phase 12 until next turn

2- Taking any action which requires additional time.

(Extra time disad for example)

3- Use an extra segment/phase for extra time bonus

 

I'm sure there are many other examples, but you get the idea.

[Gemphyre]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

Here are some things a character might do on any other phase but when it comes to phase 12 there are some questions about it mechanically.

1- Hold Phase 12 until next turn

2- Taking any action which requires additional time.

(Extra time disad for example)

3- Use an extra segment/phase for extra time bonus

 

I'm sure there are many other examples, but you get the idea.

 

My question is why is there a question about it? All these actions are perfectly legal and happen fairly frequently. In fact, because of Post-12 Recovery, held actions and actions taking extra time, especially an extra segment, can generally be more popular with certain archetypes and attacks. The mechanics work exactly the same as during any other phase of combat.

 

Gemphyre

[Greywind]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

PS12 is a blip that doesn't register in time. The recoveries happen, game goes on, from one second to the next...

[Rapier]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

Which is part of the reason I start combats on a random roll of d12. Combat time always exists. We just use non-combat time as a shorthand version. When you start combat you never know what exact segment time might be at. I don't think we've started a combat on 12 yet.

[Arc Esu]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

Originally posted by Rapier

...I start combats on a random roll of d12.

 

That's a very interesting house rule, Rapier. I like it. I may try it in my next combat.

[bjvargas]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

I like it too, and will use it. When the beginning of combat is truly random anyway.

 

I don't view it as always being so. I do sometimes base it upon the timing of the person who starts the combat, should that person have managed to plan out the attack. Ex:

 

A and B are just sitting around chatting. C is there too, across the room, singing Thriller - and very badly at that. B is in a bit of a snitfit, and thinks about smacking C upside (inside?) the head with an Ego Attack. B thinks about it for a moment, makes the decision, and is the basis for the beginning of combat. B has a SPD of 4, so combat begins in Phase 3.

 

Now if it is random, Hero A and Villian B accidently run across each other, d12 is *perfect*. There would be plenty of other times this would work better as well.

 

BJ

[Comic]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

My group used to use Seg12 as the time for the big soliloquies. It sped up the pace of combat, and seemed to have a nice rhythm.

[Thrakazog]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

I'm not sure I'm buying the philosophy behind starting combat on a random segment. When combat begins, more often than not, everybody begins at the same time. It's just a matter of reflexes as to who starts. The only segment that covers this situation is segment 12 (everybody acts, sorted by DEX). Thus, it makes the most realistic starting segment. I could see using the random roll only if the group is walking in on a combat in progress.

 

As for how I treat segment 12 itself, other than the post-12 recovery, I don't treat it any differently than any other segment with regards to holding, extra time, or anything else.

[Silbeg]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

I haven't felt the need to restrict what is allowable in seg-12. However, I do try and stress that players not meta-game the recovery, and hold their ph12 until seg 1. Not taking an action in ph12 is not genre (at least for Champions)... how many times does the initial exchange of blows really have an effect in a comic book (or other) battle?

 

That being said, I also use ph12 as the "surprise phase". Character that are surprised do not get actions in the initial ph12 (pretty sure this is "by the book"). This is how you simulate "getting the drop" on someone.

 

If I were to do something to these rules, I would probably make the initial ph12 a "surprise only" phase. In any combat without surprise, I would then start the battle in seg1, in order to avoid the holding Ph12 to get the post-recovery seg1 shot in.

 

Or, I might disallow holding the initial ph12 past the end of that segment. Either would work well, I think.

[archermoo]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

I haven't felt the need to restrict what is allowable in seg-12. However, I do try and stress that players not meta-game the recovery, and hold their ph12 until seg 1. Not taking an action in ph12 is not genre (at least for Champions)... how many times does the initial exchange of blows really have an effect in a comic book (or other) battle?

 

That being said, I also use ph12 as the "surprise phase". Character that are surprised do not get actions in the initial ph12 (pretty sure this is "by the book"). This is how you simulate "getting the drop" on someone.

 

If I were to do something to these rules, I would probably make the initial ph12 a "surprise only" phase. In any combat without surprise, I would then start the battle in seg1, in order to avoid the holding Ph12 to get the post-recovery seg1 shot in.

 

Or, I might disallow holding the initial ph12 past the end of that segment. Either would work well, I think.

 

I'm not sure I understand what advantage is gained by not acting on the initial segment 12. If anything I have noticed a tendancy for people to do their pushing during that first segment 12, since right afterwords they get a full recovery.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

Here are some things a character might do on any other phase but when it comes to phase 12 there are some questions about it mechanically.

1- Hold Phase 12 until next turn

2- Taking any action which requires additional time.

(Extra time disad for example)

3- Use an extra segment/phase for extra time bonus

 

I'm sure there are many other examples, but you get the idea.

 

You are mistaken, there's nothing special about any of these cases...they all resolve normally from 12 to 1.

[input.jack]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

In our games, we start on Phase 12 because thats the most fair way to go; starting on a random phase may be unfairly disadvantageous to someone with a lower Speed (imagine starting on Phase 7 when youve got a 2 Speed). Also, it lets the bystanders try to clear out when their move on 12 comes!

 

If the action is initiated by a suprise move, we allow the initiator to go first (before -everyone- else), and then anyone who knew the action was coming (like a team in radio contact) gets a normal action. Surprised opponents that dont see it coming are at 1/2 DCV (no levels applied). Wary opponents who kenw that -something- was coming but not exactly when get their full DCV, no levels applied.

 

If both sides see each other, are wary, and ready for a tangle, then we go down the chart as usual, and everyone starts with levels applied and full CV's. A slower character who hasnt yet gotten a chance to move may apply levels as a 0 phase reaction when they are targetted, in this case.

 

Characters with long start-up time actions either need to have stated that they were initiating these actions before the fun begins, or they may begin the action on their Phase, normally.

 

This system has served us well since the early 1980s.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

re: the free phase 12 REC

 

I think part of the intent of this rule is to reflect the initial rush of excitement that people get in stressful situations. Since most combats in HERO rarely go beyond 2 Turns this seems reasonable.

 

I am curious to know if anyone has considered something like the following as another type of initial rush as well?

 

Here is a completely different approach:

 

You could just add one or two "everyman" combat skill levels (8 or 5 point) that cost END to your campaign. Call them adrenaline or concentration levels and give them a daily use limit of some sort (1 hour continuing charge?) Eventually your body either runs out of adrenaline or become desensitized to it and other stimulants. Since everyone has them it really wouldn't be too much of an additional combat balancing issue. You may want to make them HTH only since it getting too hyped up can be a deterent to accuracy with a gun for example.

 

I second the opinion that the concept of combat fatigue works best for heroic level campaigns btw.

[Rapier]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

I'm not sure I'm buying the philosophy behind starting combat on a random segment. When combat begins, more often than not, everybody begins at the same time. It's just a matter of reflexes as to who starts. The only segment that covers this situation is segment 12 (everybody acts, sorted by DEX). Thus, it makes the most realistic starting segment. I could see using the random roll only if the group is walking in on a combat in progress.

 

As for how I treat segment 12 itself, other than the post-12 recovery, I don't treat it any differently than any other segment with regards to holding, extra time, or anything else.

 

My entire thought is that we don't always use Combat Time. It's cumbersome when nothing much is going on. However, like the second, it is the smallest measurement of time (in Hero). You never know what time segment you are on at any given time.

 

It this very second we begin combat. Look down at your watch. What second is it? Would you think it's weird that every time you look at your watch it says 59 seconds? I would think my watch was broke.

 

What about red lights. According to the base rules, every red light would occur at multiples of 12 seconds. I just don't buy it.

 

Every single time some punk in a liquor store decides to rob the place, it is at 12 second intervals? Naaaaaaaaah.

 

My theory is that time always passes. Combat may not start at second 59, 12, 34 or 47. It happens when it happens. If one character in particular starts combat, I roll 1d12. The action actually beings on his next active Phase at his DEX.

 

It works well and has added a bit more strategy in my games.

[JmOz]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

I let speed 1 (In theroy) go on phase 12 instead of phase 7 instead...

[Greywind]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

My entire thought is that we don't always use Combat Time. It's cumbersome when nothing much is going on. However, like the second, it is the smallest measurement of time (in Hero). You never know what time segment you are on at any given time.

 

It this very second we begin combat. Look down at your watch. What second is it? Would you think it's weird that every time you look at your watch it says 59 seconds? I would think my watch was broke.

 

What about red lights. According to the base rules, every red light would occur at multiples of 12 seconds. I just don't buy it.

 

Every single time some punk in a liquor store decides to rob the place, it is at 12 second intervals? Naaaaaaaaah.

 

My theory is that time always passes. Combat may not start at second 59, 12, 34 or 47. It happens when it happens. If one character in particular starts combat, I roll 1d12. The action actually beings on his next active Phase at his DEX.

 

It works well and has added a bit more strategy in my games.

But in theory, combat doesn't care what actual time it is. People just start acting on the mythical segment 12...

[Tech]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

I don't always use Phase 12 as it depends on the situation. If a group of heroes and villains are aware of each other and have talked about what's going on, then decide to fight - start a completely new turn on phase 1 (not that we have anyone with a 12 SPD).

 

The times Phase 12 is used is during a sneak attack, unexpected action or something that is not expected by hero or villain. Since these attacks or actions can potentially change combat around (x2 Stun for Surprise), the immediate Post-12 Recovery helps, whether hero or villain.

 

What's Phase 12 used for by the group I'm with? Lots of things: from dodging to making a CHA roll, rolling with the blow, etc. Too many to count.

[Thrakazog]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

If combat is a foregone conclusion, there's no surprise, and everybody is starting combat together, then phase twelve is the most logical starting point. Everybody starts fighting, with DEX deciding who acts fastest right then and subsequently.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

My entire thought is that we don't always use Combat Time. It's cumbersome when nothing much is going on. However' date=' like the second, it is the smallest measurement of time (in Hero). You never know what time segment you are on at any given time.[/quote']

 

My slightly different interpretation is that, outside combat time, you are not on any particular segment. Until we enter conbat time, there is no need to carefully track phases. In fact, by the book, everyone operates at Speed 2 outside combat time, so only a roll of 6 or 12 should allow anyone to move, since (again by the book) speed changes only happen at the end of the turn (or, optional rule, when both Speeds would get a phase, maybe 6 but 12 for virtually everyone).

 

Prior to combat, every character is more or less "ready to act". Phase 12 best simulates this.

[NestorDRod]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

My entire thought is that we don't always use Combat Time. It's cumbersome when nothing much is going on. However, like the second, it is the smallest measurement of time (in Hero). You never know what time segment you are on at any given time.

 

It this very second we begin combat. Look down at your watch. What second is it? Would you think it's weird that every time you look at your watch it says 59 seconds? I would think my watch was broke.

 

What about red lights. According to the base rules, every red light would occur at multiples of 12 seconds. I just don't buy it.

 

Every single time some punk in a liquor store decides to rob the place, it is at 12 second intervals? Naaaaaaaaah.

 

My theory is that time always passes. Combat may not start at second 59, 12, 34 or 47. It happens when it happens. If one character in particular starts combat, I roll 1d12. The action actually beings on his next active Phase at his DEX.

 

It works well and has added a bit more strategy in my games.

 

I'm not sure I follow that. I don't treat Combat-Time as a clock, I treat it as a stop-watch.

 

Whenever you begin combat, you hit the start button on your timer. What does the timer start at? 00:00.00. Doesn't matter what time it actually is, the clock starts at zero. If combat stops, the timer stops. If, later, a new combat begins, you reset the timer and start over from zero again.

 

There's also the issue of playability. My hero leaps into the scene and initiates combat, but because of a die roll, he doesn't get to act right away? Doesn't seem right to me.

 

Starting on Phase 12 means everyone gets a chance to do at least one thing before circumstances intervene to prevent it. It may not reflect reality in some way, but, at least in my games, having fun trumps reality every time.

 

If the Post-Phase 12 Recovery bothers you, do what we do. Just don't have it for that first Phase. First time PPR occurs is at the end of the next Phase 12.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

Here's an idea I just thought of while reading this thread: Go ahead and start combat on whatever phase you like: random, phase 1, or whatever, BUT... Assume everyone involved has a held action. Everyone gets to have a full phase. Those aware of the imminent combat can DEX off or use Lightning Reflexes or whatever. Those who are asleep, unconscious, distracted, or engaged in some activity requiring Concentration don't get the held phase, but they can spend it "waking up" and looking around to see what's going on.

 

The Post-12 Recovery has always bothered me a liitle. There's nothing wrong with it per se, but players can metagame and Push or something similar during the initial Phase 12, because they know they'll get a free recovery. Some have suggested skipping the first turn's Post-12 Rec. Another possibility is to portion it out over the turn: If your REC is 12, you get 1 STUN and 1 END back per segment, If your REC is not a multiple of 12, smoothe it out as best you can. It shouldn't be difficult, you can use the Speed Chart, and write down the phases you get your STUN/END back on your charatcer sheet in advance! For example, if your REC is 9, you get 1 STUN and 1 END back on those segments when a SPD 9 character would get a phase.

 

After all, the Post-12 Rec isn't supposed to be an adrenaline surge that you get every 12 seconds. It's supposed to be the natural recovery of the body that happens gradually.

[MicroMike]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

Sight tangent here-I've always allowed players to only take a 1/2 phase on 12. Instead of move and shoot, it's move or shoot.

 

Is that a stupid thing to do?

[Greywind]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

Why artificially limit their options?

[archermoo]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

Sight tangent here-I've always allowed players to only take a 1/2 phase on 12. Instead of move and shoot, it's move or shoot.

 

Is that a stupid thing to do?

 

I don't know that I'd call it stupid, but I certainly can't think of a reason to do it. 12 is a segment just like any other. Why do you single out 12 to be only a 1/2 phase?

[JmOz]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

I could understand doing it to the initial phase 12, but all phase 12's? no...