Problem with Missile Deflection

[Ockham's Spoon]

If I want to be able to redirect an attack back at the attacker, the Missile Reflection is obviously the way to go; there is no other clean mechanic to handle it.

 

But if I only want to be able to block incoming attacks and I don't care where they go, Missile Deflection seems like a ridiculous power to use. For 25 points Captain America can buy Missile Deflection vs. any type of attack. Or he could buy +5 levels DCV with the SFX "I block it with my shield".

 

The extra levels of DCV have the advantage that they are passive so no half PHA action required, they work against both ranged and HTH attacks, and they are generally more effective to boot. Consider Cap is facing an opponent who happens to have the same combat value. This means his foe hits on 11- and Cap can Missile Deflect on 11-. Or Cap could have +5 DCV and his opponent would only hit on a 6-. Clearly the high DCV "missile deflection" is superior. (Okay, if you want to get picky, limit the DCV only to ranged attacks, but it is still better).

 

Has anyone else addressed this issue in their games? Beyond violating possible DCV limits, I don't see why the high DCV option wouldn't be the preferred choice here. Comments?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Problem with Missile Deflection

 

I rarely use just Missile Deflection for precisely this sort of reason. DCV levels or high armor work better vs most attacks IMO.

 

The area where Missile Deflection can be useful is vs AoE's that have Can Be Missile Deflected like grenades, but since that's a limited effect rather than a given, very edge case.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Problem with Missile Deflection

 

This is one of the more complicated parts of HERO combat.

 

The simple answer: There are some effects* that bypass a character's DCV (meaning they can't be Dodged) but that CAN be Blocked (or Missile Deflected).

 

*Any attack with AOE Accurate. This could be a giant's large fist or a wizard's 'magic missile'.

 

24 Anti-Magic Missile Field: Missile Deflection (Any Ranged Attack), Missile Reflection, Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +1 1/4) (90 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about two-thirds of its effectiveness (Only vs. Magic Missle spell.; -1 1/2), OIF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Hour (-1/4) - END=[1 cc]

 

82* Magic Missile: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6, Autofire (5 shots; +1 1/2), Area Of Effect (10" Radius; +1 1/4), Selective (+1/4), Attack Versus Limited Defense (?; +1 1/2) (82 Active Points) - END=8 (*Limit similar to above including, can be missile deflected)

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Problem with Missile Deflection

 

I will grant that vs. some AoE attacks Missile Deflection would work, depending on SFX, but I have to agree with Killer Shrike that this is generally such a limited class of attacks that the advantage of Missile Deflection is hardly worth it.

 

Hyper-Man, your example of a magic missile spell is well-taken, as that would be exactly the sort of thing Missile Deflection would work against that extra DCV wouldn't. But could you really legitimately block a giant's fist or Missile Deflect an oversized projectile like a thrown car or something? I guess that is the GM's call, but it seems unreasonable to me to block a huge object.

[Lucius]

Re: Problem with Missile Deflection

 

I guess that is the GM's call' date=' but it seems unreasonable to me to block a huge object.[/quote']

 

Not "block." Just "arrange not to be hit by."

 

No one is supposing that a Human character can just grab and stop cold a big tree that a giant has swung or thrown at him - unless that character is Hercules or something.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Deflection

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: Problem with Missile Deflection

 

The typical Missile Deflector is a high dex, high speed guy already pushing the campaign dcv limits and with enough extra phases to abort. Not always, but usually. One important thing Missile D does that DCV doesn't though is allow you to block attacks aimed at someone else. All your extra DCV does when Lazergirl fires her RKA at Defenseless Lad is to interpose yourself, and then get out of the way.

[Comic]

Re: Problem with Missile Deflection

 

Missile Deflect gets you a good part of the way to Missile Reflect, which isn't exactly worthless.

 

For some, putting DCV levels into a focus is a stretch, while putting missile deflection into one is obvious. Not a strong point, since so many strongly feel there's nothing wrong with skills taking limitations.

 

Certainly it's easier to put missile deflect into a multipower slot than to put a skill into one.

 

Levels with Missile Deflect are cheaper than levels with DCV.

 

Missile Deflect + 10 levels with Missile Deflect, OAF Shield = 22 CP

10 level with DCV = 50 AP. Put on an OAF Shield, still 25 CP.

 

Put the Missile Deflect into a multipower, 2 CP.

Put the DCV into a multipower.. still 2 CP, but try to find a GM who won't mutter *cheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesy* under his breath.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Problem with Missile Deflection

 

The typical Missile Deflector is a high dex' date=' high speed guy already pushing the campaign dcv limits and with enough extra phases to abort. Not always, but usually. One important thing Missile D does that DCV doesn't though is allow you to block attacks aimed at someone else. All your extra DCV does when Lazergirl fires her RKA at Defenseless Lad is to interpose yourself, and then get out of the way.[/quote']

 

This could be so depending on the SFX of extra DCV. It could (and in official builds often is) used to represent a shield which deflects incoming attacks so that they "miss" doing any significant damage to the target. In that case it would be reasonable that someone could protect a person behind them from ranged attacks with that shield.

 

The benefit to Missile Deflection vs. DCV bonuses is the same as for the Block Maneuver vs. DCV bonuses: the attacker has to succeed in two successive Attack Rolls, one to overcome the defensive Power/Maneuver, and a second to overcome the target's DCV. When you consider the probabilities of that combination, it's much more competitive with increased DCV than it appears at first.

 

You also have to consider how the costs break down. Full Missile Deflection is not the only way to go; in many campaigns the five, ten, or fifteen point versions make a tremendous difference. And once you do have the desired amount of Missile Deflection, increasing the roll costs only 2 points for each +1 OCV, as opposed to 5 points for each additional DCV level.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Problem with Missile Deflection

 

The typical Missile Deflector is a high dex' date=' high speed guy already pushing the campaign dcv limits and with enough extra phases to abort. Not always, but usually. One important thing Missile D does that DCV doesn't though is allow you to block attacks aimed at someone else. All your extra DCV does when Lazergirl fires her RKA at Defenseless Lad is to interpose yourself, and then get out of the way.[/quote']

 

My thoughts exactly. The problem with an extra 5 DCV starts when it conflicts with the campaign DCV cap.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Problem with Missile Deflection

 

The typical Missile Deflector is a high dex' date=' high speed guy already pushing the campaign dcv limits and with enough extra phases to abort. Not always, but usually. [/quote']

 

My thoughts exactly. The problem with an extra 5 DCV starts when it conflicts with the campaign DCV cap.

 

This is why I dislike hard caps. If an extra 5 DCV will make the character so well defended that it will break my game, then how will the absolute maximum DCV, plus the ability to deflect attacks, not break my game?

 

"Well, he has to give up an attack action to missile deflect"? OK, can he buy +5 DCV, cannot attack on same phase (-1/2) instead? Or better yet, just add Martial Dodge to his MA package for 4 points (or buy MA including M Dodge for 10 points) and use that?

 

"Well, he has to make a roll to missile deflect" Yes, and the attacker may roll well enough to hit him, even with +5 DCV. How often do you see a Deflector who doesn't have a solid OCV to deflect?

 

"Well, multiple attacks are harder bo deflect". Sure. Using the Multiple Attacker Bonus, they're also harder to avoid.

 

And why should Missile deflection be priced much higher than added DCV that generates similar benefits for all characters, regardless of whether they are pushing the campaign DCV guideline, or have a poor DEX and a big shield?

[Bloodstone]

Re: Problem with Missile Deflection

 

One important thing Missile D does that DCV doesn't though is allow you to block attacks aimed at someone else. All your extra DCV does when Lazergirl fires her RKA at Defenseless Lad is to interpose yourself' date=' and then get out of the way.[/quote']

 

While this is a good selling point for MD, nothing stops you from having DCV levels with some degree of Useable on Other and/or Ranged, with the special effect of "I block the attack aimed at someone else".

 

Mind you, the cost probably swings back in favor of MD at that point...

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Problem with Missile Deflection

 

If you are not going for Full Missile Deflection, I can see where point-wise it could be cheaper than extra DCV. But to make it completely comparable, we would also have to either make the Missile Deflection passive (that is, pay for Continuous) or make the extra DCV active (require half PHA action - yes I know this is putting a limitation on skill levels, but as Lord L. mentioned a shield is legit which is extra DCV through a focus, so it isn't out of line).

So Full Missile Deflection, Continuous Uncontrolled (+1) is 50 AP, for which you could also buy +10 DCV (although I wager no GM would allow either, but just for the sake of comparison). Now extra levels for Missile Deflection are 4 pts each, which is almost as much as the extra DCV, so Missile Deflection is never going to catch up effectiveness-wise there.

But even if you only buy 10pts of Missile Deflection Continuous, that is still 20 AP which is 4 levels DCV. The DCV is going to be at least as effective still, plus it is useable against all ranged attacks. I still don't see Missile Deflection being worth it.

And just to muddy the water further, regular Missile Deflection can block AoE attacks with the appropriate SFX, like a grenade. That is completely a SFX effect, there was no points paid for it, it is just logical. By the same token, why couldn't your levels in DCV defined as "I block it with my shield" be used the same way? It isn't an advantage on the DCV levels, rather it is a limitation of the SFX of the attack.

Now Comic has a good point about putting Missile Deflect in Multipower, which makes it more cost effective (because even if you did allow DCV levels in the Multipower, you would still have to dedicate a slot to it which means the advantage of being passive is greatly reduced). And certainly if you are working your way to Missile Reflect or even if you just want to be able to catch the knife that was thrown at you, Missile Deflect is the way to go.

Mechanically Missile Deflection is a block for ranged attacks. But everyone gets "Block" for free, why not some level of Missile Deflection? Would you make anyone who plays baseball buy Missile Deflection to be able to hit a ball with a bat or catch a ball thrown at them? If you get the first level of Missile Deflection for free, then it suddenly becomes more cost effective, esp. if the GM lets you deflect at higher levels with some kind of OCV penalty. Does that seem reasonable?

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[Erkenfresh]

Re: Problem with Missile Deflection

 

Try looking up in 5ER on page 559, meta-rule 5. That in itself goes a long way to supporting missle deflect (though I agree it's not a solid rule and rules are meant to be broken).

 

I mean, I can come up with at least two ridiculous alternatives to MD just off the top of my head:

1. Extra Dimensional Movement, to a dimension where the attack didn't hit me, with the SFX that I blocked it with my shield.

2. Desolid, with the SFX that I blocked it with my shield.

 

etc.

 

Heck, with desolid, you don't even have to roll anything. The attack is guaranteed to miss. Though it does come at a 40 point cost.

 

To me, if you want an SFX to deflect an arrow or laser with your shield, buy Missle Deflect. If you want the SFX that you take a ghostly form and arrows pass harmlessly through you, buy Desolid. If you want the SFX that you can avoid the attack or make it land in a tough spot in your armor, buy DCV. If you're a munchkin, buy EDM.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Problem with Missile Deflection

 

Try looking up in 5ER on page 559, meta-rule 5. That in itself goes a long way to supporting missle deflect (though I agree it's not a solid rule and rules are meant to be broken).

 

I mean, I can come up with at least two ridiculous alternatives to MD just off the top of my head:

1. Extra Dimensional Movement, to a dimension where the attack didn't hit me, with the SFX that I blocked it with my shield.

2. Desolid, with the SFX that I blocked it with my shield.

 

etc.

 

Heck, with desolid, you don't even have to roll anything. The attack is guaranteed to miss. Though it does come at a 40 point cost.

 

To me, if you want an SFX to deflect an arrow or laser with your shield, buy Missle Deflect. If you want the SFX that you take a ghostly form and arrows pass harmlessly through you, buy Desolid. If you want the SFX that you can avoid the attack or make it land in a tough spot in your armor, buy DCV. If you're a munchkin, buy EDM.

 

Unfortunately I have 5E and not 5ER, so I am ignorant of said metarule. And I would generally agree with your assessment of relative uses of Missile Deflection, Desolid, and extra DCV. But I still think the DCV build for blocking incoming missiles is valid, especially if you are simulating a speedster type who can effectively "block" and attack in the same PHA, because that is his shtick. I am not trying to be munchkiny here, but Missile Deflection just doesn't seem to be costed properly, esp. when compared to the reasonably valid extra DCV build.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Problem with Missile Deflection

 

Unfortunately I have 5E and not 5ER' date=' so I am ignorant of said metarule. And I would generally agree with your assessment of relative uses of Missile Deflection, Desolid, and extra DCV. But I still think the DCV build for blocking incoming missiles is valid, especially if you are simulating a speedster type who can effectively "block" and attack in the same PHA, because that is his shtick. I am not trying to be munchkiny here, but Missile Deflection just doesn't seem to be costed properly, esp. when compared to the reasonably valid extra DCV build.[/quote']

 

With Block or Missile Deflection a character can defend something* without moving. DCV alone does not allow for this. A ranged attack that misses a character due to DCV only can continue on its general path and potentially hit anything behind that character.

 

*(A piece of ground, another character, a doorway, etc...)

[Comic]

Re: Problem with Missile Deflection

 

On the whole, I'd rather buy the power that fits the effect of the concept, if there is one, than multiple levels of a skill to simulate the effect.

 

If there is no power that is a good fit, I'm pleased to find an appropriate skill.

 

So even if it costs more, I'd gladly pay for missile deflect of whatever level I intend in my concept.

 

Sometimes price isn't everything.

[Gary]

Re: Problem with Missile Deflection

 

Or I can pay 6 pts for +3 Dex (after speed rebate) that gives me the DCV AND OCV, initiative, and Agility skill rolls. Costs 1 pt more than just DCV, but far superior.

 

At base levels, DCV is probably superior. However, consider that it can cost an attacker only 2-3 pts in general to counter a 5 pt defense using OCV skill levels. For a missile deflection user, it costs him 2 pts to counter a 2-3 pt OCV skill level. At a certain amount of plusses, the missile deflection is going to be the better choice. Combined with the ability to block for others and the easier access to frameworks, the choice becomes competitive.

[Markdoc]

Re: Problem with Missile Deflection

 

Also what is missing from the debate is the rcognition that it needn't be "DCV or Missile Deflect". It can also be "DCV and Missile Deflect". Let's face it, most of the classic deflectors like Cap are also high DCV characters: it's another way of protecting low DEF characters who mix it up with the big-attack guys and both of them give you slightly different options.

 

cheers, Mark

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Problem with Missile Deflection

 

With Block or Missile Deflection a character can defend something* without moving. DCV alone does not allow for this. A ranged attack that misses a character due to DCV only can continue on its general path and potentially hit anything behind that character.

 

*(A piece of ground, another character, a doorway, etc...)

 

Thanks for the clarification. A good point, although as Bloodstone mentioned you could always buy the DCV levels as Useable by Others, though granted you would have to pay for it.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Problem with Missile Deflection

 

Or I can pay 6 pts for +3 Dex (after speed rebate) that gives me the DCV AND OCV, initiative, and Agility skill rolls. Costs 1 pt more than just DCV, but far superior.

 

At base levels, DCV is probably superior. However, consider that it can cost an attacker only 2-3 pts in general to counter a 5 pt defense using OCV skill levels. For a missile deflection user, it costs him 2 pts to counter a 2-3 pt OCV skill level. At a certain amount of plusses, the missile deflection is going to be the better choice. Combined with the ability to block for others and the easier access to frameworks, the choice becomes competitive.

 

So... what I see here is that DEX is better than levels in DCV, which I argue is better than Missile Deflection, so maybe extra DEX is the way to go? Okay I take your point that you should buy the power you want to represent and not just the most cost effective ability. But this is HERO, which I love for its (mostly) balanced point system, and my contention is that Missile Deflection, as written, is getting shorted.

 

You are right that at 5 points levels in DCV can't compete with levels in Missile Deflection, but I still contend you are comparing apples and oranges unless the two function the same way. If you put an advantage on the Missile Deflection to make it Continuous, or a limitation on the DCV levels to make them require a half PHA action, then the cost differential is not so great. And still the DCV levels apply to all attacks, not just ranged ones.

 

Thank you everyone who has defended Missile Deflection; I certainly have a more favorable view of it than when this thread started. Still, I am not entirely happy with it and am tempted to give everyone Missile Deflection vs. Thrown for free, in part to ameliorate the cost and in part because it makes logical sense that people could block ranged attacks like HTH attacks as a standard manuever.

 

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[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Problem with Missile Deflection

 

So... what I see here is that DEX is better than levels in DCV, which I argue is better than Missile Deflection, so maybe extra DEX is the way to go? Okay I take your point that you should buy the power you want to represent and not just the most cost effective ability. But this is HERO, which I love for its (mostly) balanced point system, and my contention is that Missile Deflection, as written, is getting shorted.

 

You are right that at 5 points levels in DCV can't compete with levels in Missile Deflection, but I still contend you are comparing apples and oranges unless the two function the same way. If you put an advantage on the Missile Deflection to make it Continuous, or a limitation on the DCV levels to make them require a half PHA action, then the cost differential is not so great. And still the DCV levels apply to all attacks, not just ranged ones.

 

If you reprice levels or DEX to make them more equivalent in a Supers game, they fall out of balance in a Heroic game once you hit NCM. This is, to me, one of the reasons skills, and skill levels, are more important in heroic games than in Supers games.

[Zorak1003]

Re: Problem with Missile Deflection

 

Ock, I basically agree with you. Missile deflection is ultimately a block manuever you have to pay for, if it can't reflect or be used at range, etc. Your way is simpler, and better.

[Peregrine]

Re: Problem with Missile Deflection

 

More to the point, Missile Deflection is "Block ranged attacks"; the higher the velocity of the incoming attack (generally, by group classification), the more it costs.

 

OTOH, it is the gateway to both "defend someone else" (ranged Missile Deflection) and Missile Reflection, but that construct (less efficient ability is the prerequisite for a genuinely valuable ability) smacks of Other Games' Fe-, er "Ability Trees"...

 

For further acknowledgment of the problems with Missile Deflection (and his suggestions for addressing them), see Steve Long's HEROglyphs column in Digital Hero #38.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Problem with Missile Deflection

 

More to the point, Missile Deflection is "Block ranged attacks"; the higher the velocity of the incoming attack (generally, by group classification), the more it costs.

 

OTOH, it is the gateway to both "defend someone else" (ranged Missile Deflection) and Missile Reflection, but that construct (less efficient ability is the prerequisite for a genuinely valuable ability) smacks of Other Games' Fe-, er "Ability Trees"...

 

For further acknowledgment of the problems with Missile Deflection (and his suggestions for addressing them), see Steve Long's HEROglyphs column in Digital Hero #38.

 

Since I started this thread I think it would be okay for me to send it off on a slight tangent here.

 

I haven't seen the DH article so maybe this is addressed there, but the higher cost for deflecting faster objects sticks in my craw too. Logically, yes, it is much harder to block a bullet or a laser than it is to block a thrown dagger. But mechanically the only distinction is the SFX. Is it reasonable that Laser Lad's 2d6 RKA attack requires 20 more points in Missile Deflection to block than Javelin Jack's 2d6 RKA spear? Certainly there needs to be some distinction because I don't think it is reasonable to be blocking bullets without some kind of rationale, but I also don't think SFX should make that large a difference in the price of defenses.

 

My first thought off the top of my head would be to apply a OCV penalty to the basic Missile Deflection depending on the speed of the incoming attack. Say -2 OCV per "level" of MD so that for thrown it would be -0, for arrows -2, for bullets -4, and for energy attacks -6. Even at -4 OCV your chances of MD is pretty poor without a lot of levels or a significantly higher CV. Hmm, that is still a 12 pt difference at the high end, and I would want some rationale for the character to even be able to attempt such a thing, so maybe that needs some tinkering.

 

Thoughts anyone?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Problem with Missile Deflection

 

My first thought off the top of my head would be to apply a OCV penalty to the basic Missile Deflection depending on the speed of the incoming attack. Say -2 OCV per "level" of MD so that for thrown it would be -0, for arrows -2, for bullets -4, and for energy attacks -6. Even at -4 OCV your chances of MD is pretty poor without a lot of levels or a significantly higher CV. Hmm, that is still a 12 pt difference at the high end, and I would want some rationale for the character to even be able to attempt such a thing, so maybe that needs some tinkering.

 

Thoughts anyone?

 

If I were revising the system, I would fold all the Missile Deflection abilities into adders for Block. For 25 points (is that full missile deflection), the character may Block any ranged attack targetting him. The adders for reflection, etc. would remain the same. If the character wants to restrict the types of ranged attacks he can deflect, he would take a Limited Power limitation at a level appropriate to the proportion of likely attacks he removes from the ability.

 

If MirrorMan can only deflect lasers, he'd get the same limitation, and pay the same cost, as The Catcher, who can only deflect thrown objkects, assuming lasers and thrown objects will be encountered with equal frequency.