Lord Fyre Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 Right now my gaming group consists of some dedicated d20 gamers (mostly D&D). My question is, what tactics might you suggest to convert them (the players) to the - far superior IMHO - Hero System? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolgroth Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 Re: 4d6 Major Transform: d20 Gamer to Hero Gamer! Burn the d20 books? The way I got a couple of players over is by taking advantage of their frustration with D&D's lack of being able to model exactly what they were looking for. I just showed them that you can model it in HERO and that it works well with other builds. Then I joined the Army and who knows what those players are up to these days. And knockback, don't forget knockback. What kind of gamer wouldn't get a "geek on" from the concept of knocking an opponent 5 meters back through a brick wall? That's what sold me when I was first introduced. Since then, I haven't really played super hero stuff, but the concept is still sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 Re: 4d6 Major Transform: d20 Gamer to Hero Gamer! Club them with 5ER until they are unconscious. Tie them to a chair. Teach them Hero "Clockwork Orange" style. Or, put together a Fantasy Hero game, with some pregenerated characters, run a session of Hero with no Optional rules for the moment. The Basic Maneuvers are enough to blow most D20 tactics away as far as versatility goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister E Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 Re: 4d6 Major Transform: d20 Gamer to Hero Gamer! Let them fool around with the books. Make some superheroes. Run some skirmishes. But whatever you do... don't tell them about the HEROBoards, get them wet, or feed them after midnight. ... and oh yeah... HERO doesn't have Attacks of Opportunity, power-ramping (unless you want it to), or classes/class-combinations (mage/sorceror) that suck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 Re: 4d6 Major Transform: d20 Gamer to Hero Gamer! Make sure they're tired of playing what is essentially a video game on paper. Kill monsters so you can get cool powerups so you can kill bigger monsters so you can get cooler powerups..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CourtFool Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 Re: 4d6 Major Transform: d20 Gamer to Hero Gamer! Find out what sorts of things they always wanted to do. Then show them how they can in Hero. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 Re: 4d6 Major Transform: d20 Gamer to Hero Gamer! Find out what sorts of things they always wanted to do. Then show them how they can in Hero. It sounds obvious but it is the best approach. The last thing you want to do is show them all the things you think are cool about the system - if you are a true Hero geek it might convince them the game will never be for them! There is also a role for presentation. Keep the presentation simple and dont let them see the nuts and bolts of the system unless you have to. Courtfool posted an example of a character sheet he uses that is a tribute to the KISS principle and may even be persuaded to provide you with the export file for to use in Hero Designer if you use such a thing... Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceTheOwl Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 Re: 4d6 Major Transform: d20 Gamer to Hero Gamer! I actually got to do just this. We met a couple of people who'd only played D&D, and wanted to play in a real game again. Josh said he'd only run Hero, so they agreed to learn it if we'd teach them. We built their characters in Hero Designer and stuck to fantasy so far (though we'll be moving into a Teen Champions game when Josh is ready to run that one). Already they've remarked that they like Hero better, because of the versality, and not being shoehorned into a linear build. So I recommend starting with what they know, or what they express interest in playing, walking them through the character creation process (start with a genre trope, then tweak it to their specs), and keeping the initial sessions simple and light on the mechanics. Tell them to give it a few sessions before giving up on it, and make sure to tell them what to roll and what to aim for initially. (I.e.: "Roll 3d6, and you're looking for an 11 or less.") Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CourtFool Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 I disagree So I recommend starting with what they know' date=' or what they express interest in playing, walking them through the character creation process (start with a genre trope, then tweak it to their specs), and keeping the initial sessions simple and light on the mechanics.[/quote'] I would strongly suggest not walking them through the character creation process. If at all possible, ask them for concepts and build the characters for them. Once they are really hooked and are ready to see what other possibilities there are, then you can turn them loose in character generation. Most of the arguments (myths in my opinion) against Hero revolve around character generation. "Math is hard." "Hero is overly complicated." "Character generation is too long." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceTheOwl Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 Re: I disagree Well, I meant to include "with Hero Designer, if you have it" in there. If there's no Hero Designer to do the math for you, yeah, creating a character off the bat can be pretty complicated and weird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CourtFool Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 Re: 4d6 Major Transform: d20 Gamer to Hero Gamer! When teaching people new to RPGs or running a game for people who generally play The Game Which Shall Not Be Mentioned, I frequently have the problem of players randomly selecting Skills/Powers that 'look kewl'. While unrelated abilities can be fun, when taken to an extreme, it kills my immersion. So I would suggest making sure they have a strong concept before you even mention Hero Designer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Fyre Posted June 21, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 Re: 4d6 Major Transform: d20 Gamer to Hero Gamer! When teaching people new to RPGs or running a game for people who generally play The Game Which Shall Not Be Mentioned' date=' I frequently have the problem of players randomly selecting Skills/Powers that 'look kewl'. While unrelated abilities can be fun, when taken to an extreme, it kills my immersion. So I would suggest making sure they have a strong concept before you even mention Hero Designer.[/quote'] CourtFool, do not fear to say the words "d20" or "Dungeons & Dragons 3.5"? The word are powerless! But, let me commit heresy: d20 is not a "bad" game system. My real anger with WoTC is with the "3.5" part, not the system itself. True, Hero > d20 which is why I wish to bring my current playing group to that system. (I mentioned in another thread that I was "forced" to run Conan d20 for my current group.) While I do have Hero Designer, you are right, creating their characters for them - at lest initially. Once they are familiar with how well Hero actually plays (without the cumbersome rules of d20), then I shall try exposing them to some of the optons for d20. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceTheOwl Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 Re: 4d6 Major Transform: d20 Gamer to Hero Gamer! When teaching people new to RPGs or running a game for people who generally play The Game Which Shall Not Be Mentioned' date=' I frequently have the problem of players randomly selecting Skills/Powers that 'look kewl'. While unrelated abilities can be fun, when taken to an extreme, it kills my immersion. So I would suggest making sure they have a strong concept before you even mention Hero Designer.[/quote'] I didn't have a problem with that. But then, I only had three players. We opened Hero Designer, and picked out their Disads. Then we went on to skills. Then it was Perks and Talents. I only opened the Powers part for the one building a spellcaster, and we worked right from the Hero System Grimoire (at least, for the first one - by the second, she knew what type of magic she wanted her character casting). The last thing we did was Characteristics, having figured out which ones they needed to lean on the most with Skills. I was the one doing the inputting, and they watched over my shoulder and gave me a yea or nay as I explained what each skill or perk or talent meant, and what the characteristics tied to. I didn't confuse them by showing them kewl stuffs they would have no use for in the concepts they'd given me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 Re: 4d6 Major Transform: d20 Gamer to Hero Gamer! This may or may not be of interest to you: D&D 3e to HERO System Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CourtFool Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 Re: 4d6 Major Transform: d20 Gamer to Hero Gamer! This may or may not be of interest to you: D&D 3e to HERO System JOKE JOKE JOKE Just couldn't help yourself, could you? JOKE JOKE JOKE Please note, this is no way meant as an insult to Killer Shrike whom I admire greatly. You will find many, many wonderful ideas, write-ups and tips on his site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolgroth Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 Re: 4d6 Major Transform: d20 Gamer to Hero Gamer! Considering you link his site in your quote as the unofficial guide to Fantasy HERO, I have to acknowledge that you have some respect for the guy. Besides, we all know that the Llama's sense of humor can be a bit snarky. It's what we like about ya. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CourtFool Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 Re: 4d6 Major Transform: d20 Gamer to Hero Gamer! Besides' date=' we all know that the Llama's sense of humor can be a bit snarky.[/quote'] You would think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CourtFool Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 I disagree CourtFool' date=' do not fear to say the words ... The word are powerless![/quote'] Powerless? The mere utterance can summon hoards of mindless vermin intent on killing things and taking its stuff. I have a problem with the system and the mindset it encourages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archermoo Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 Re: 4d6 Major Transform: d20 Gamer to Hero Gamer! You would think. I would've thought that it would have been a bit llama-y. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolgroth Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 Re: I disagree Powerless? The mere utterance can summon hoards of mindless vermin intent on killing things and taking its stuff. I have a problem with the system and the mindset it encourages.So the adventure I'm writing for Digital HERO' date=' [i']Return to the Tomb of Inescapable Death[/i] would be a bad thing? I was going to dedicate it to E.G.G. because it's kewl. Everything in there is a lethal trap designed to cure any adventurous players of having any curiosity or desire to have their characters explore new things. (And I calls him snarky. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CourtFool Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 Re: 4d6 Major Transform: d20 Gamer to Hero Gamer! If I have to game with one more player that insists on listening at every door and checking for traps everywhere, I may have to throw myself on my +5 Vorpal Kozuka of Seppuku. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 Re: 4d6 Major Transform: d20 Gamer to Hero Gamer! Just couldn't help yourself, could you? Of course not; doesn't do anyone any good to have it sitting out in Net Limbo if people never know its there. A little pimpage doesn't hurt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Obvious Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 Re: 4d6 Major Transform: d20 Gamer to Hero Gamer! JOKE JOKE JOKE Just couldn't help yourself, could you? JOKE JOKE JOKE Please note, this is no way meant as an insult to Killer Shrike whom I admire greatly. You will find many, many wonderful ideas, write-ups and tips on his site. What's that supposed to mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 Re: 4d6 Major Transform: d20 Gamer to Hero Gamer! What's that supposed to mean? He knows I'm near sighted and have no inherent sense of humor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted June 24, 2007 Report Share Posted June 24, 2007 Re: 4d6 Major Transform: d20 Gamer to Hero Gamer! What's that supposed to mean? I thought it was - well, Obvious. In a prior thread, as I recall, Court Fool made some snarky comment about Killer Shrike's self-promotion, which was meant in jest but Killer Shrike took some degree of offense to it. They got it straightened out quickly. I think Court Fool and I both agree with Killer Shrike's point that all that materiel on his website is only useful if the people that need it can find it. I'm sure there's no chance of such a misunderstanding between them again, but my guess is that Court Fool is afraid someone else might take it the wrong way, so he's trying to be explicit about the very real respect he has for Killer Shrike. To get back on topic, I agree with what several people have already said - the key is to find out what the players have really wanted to do, that has been balked by the system they're using. Or find something about the system that really bugs them because it doesn't make sense, and point out that Hero offers an escape from that. I haven't played D&D in a long time and I realize the rules have evolved to incorporate ideas from HERO and other superior game systems, but I suspect that anyone who's played D&D for a while has their share of complaints about the system. Find those grievances and offer Hero based solutions. Lucius Alexander Palindromedary Enterprises - finding Palindromedary Based Solutions since 2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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