Where have all the Superheroes gone?

[TheRealVector]

Re: Where have all the Superheroes gone?

 

[/font]

 

One of the factors that defines the "Bronze Age" from the earlier periods was a willingness to address social issues and consequences.

 

I don't know. It seems to me that the kinds of fears I mentioned in my OP are what is driving the renewed popularity of Post-Apocolyptic gaming.

(http://nodwick.humor.gamespy.com/ffn/index.php?date=2007-06-20)

 

But, one might correctly point out, that the sub-genre is not new, so we have been to this place "culturally" before.

 

It seems every generation thinks they're living in the "end of times" and it's never been worse.

 

On some level the comic industry/talent/audience did grow up and realize the superhero genre is inherently silly. So are a lot of wonderfully fun genres!

 

Just try to grab a little optimism in your real life and pull on the old thights and cape in your game and have fun!

 

Or do gritty Post-Apocolyptic gaming or anything in between.

 

On a slightly related note I'm looking forward to the next Fallout PC game.

[McCoy]

Re: Where have all the Superheroes gone?

 

Rep to oddhat and ghost. Again. I can't really rep you guys' date=' but you know it's the thought that counts. [/quote']

Got them for you.

 

I don't know. While James Bond and his ilk have never been the same since the end of the Cold War, superheroes still seem timely.

 

[Edit] Tempted to throw out a challenge. Write a high concept and brief plot for the big-screen adaption of The Man From U.N.C.L.E.. Cannot be a period piece, cannot be a parody (or whatever you call the really bad Bewitched retred), and the villians cannot be nameless terrorists, their motive must be explained.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Where have all the Superheroes gone?

 

Got them for you.

 

I don't know. While James Bond and his ilk have never been the same since the end of the Cold War, superheroes still seem timely.

 

[Edit] Tempted to throw out a challenge. Write a high concept and brief plot for the big-screen adaption of The Man From U.N.C.L.E.. Cannot be a period piece, cannot be a parody (or whatever you call the really bad Bewitched retred), and the villians cannot be nameless terrorists, their motive must be explained.

 

I don't think UNCLE would suffer in the post-Cold War world, as it featured cooperation among East and West blocs anyways, with a third party threat (THRUSH) bent on world domination.

[Lord Fyre]

Re: Where have all the Superheroes gone?

 

. . . ' date=' superheroes still seem timely.[/quote']

 

That is because "Timely" became Marvel Comics. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timely_Comics)

[Tech]

Re: Where have all the Superheroes gone?

 

Superheroes are heroes with abilities beyond us normal people. The term superhero has no meaning if taken away from the word hero, i.e. if we didn't know what a hero was, we wouldn't know what a superhero is. So I rephrase the question as: Do we still need heroes?

 

Yes!

 

Heroes rise to the challenge of making the world a better place, giving us a hope when hopelessness arises. Heroes make difficult decisions and at times, sacrifice their lives to help others.

 

Yes, we can all use a hero/superhero.

[psm]

Re: Where have all the Superheroes gone?

 

Speaking of Milestone, I loved Static. At the time that was my favorite comic.

 

Anyway back to the subject. I think we need to make a distinction when we talk about superheroes as compared to the superhero genre. I can see where you are coming from when you say that superheroes don't deal directly with social problems anymore. However, I would disagree that the genre has abandoned social issues. If you look at Ex Machina, Civil War, or Black Summer you'll see references/metaphors for current events (okay, basically the same current event). It's just being handled differently than it was in the early Bronze Age.

[ParagonAlpha]

Re: Where have all the Superheroes gone?

 

Superheroes are heroes with abilities beyond us normal people. The term superhero has no meaning if taken away from the word hero, i.e. if we didn't know what a hero was, we wouldn't know what a superhero is. So I rephrase the question as: Do we still need heroes?

 

Yes!

 

Heroes rise to the challenge of making the world a better place, giving us a hope when hopelessness arises. Heroes make difficult decisions and at times, sacrifice their lives to help others.

 

Yes, we can all use a hero/superhero.

 

After 9/11 the world saw that heroes didn't need to wear spandex. They saw what a country can do. They saw the heroic actions of men and women reflected in the New York Police and Fire Departments. They see the actions of the men and women serving in the armed forces. Those are real life heroes.

I know how they'll react when the time calls for it by watching CNN or MSNBC (ban FOX News).

 

I want my suoerheroes to be beyond those dangers and moral questions. I don't want Superman flying to Iraq and killing some leader. Hell I don't want anybody from DC doing that sort of thing. I want my comic book heroes to fight off alien invasions. I want them to stop Dr. Nefarious' orbital space laser. I want them to make my fantasies and dreams and imagination safe.

 

The "Iron Age" of comics brought a weak, lazy and utterly vile sense to comic books. I mean if you look back at those "Image"-filled days you'll notice that the critically acclaimed comics, the ones the fans loved (not the comic speculators and holographic-foil-mega-variant-multifold cover fans).

 

Look at who was being held in high regard as storywriters, Mark Waid, Peter David, Chris Claremont. Look at who followed them. Kurt Busiek (though Mr. Busiek had been around for years quietly keeping the Silver Age alive in subtle ways.)

 

People don't need realism in comic books. They need superheroes. They need to feel the world could be a better place. They need a place to go were CNN doesn't exist.

 

Marvel is starting to realize it with the lackluster sales and disapproval of stories like House of M. Even trying to bring in questions of patriotism and personal freedoms with the Civil War storyline resulted in fans wondering what they hell is going on.

 

DC's Identity Crisis took established characters and defiled every action they had undertaken for generations. I won't even get into Infinite Crisis.

 

The superhero genre is supposed to be larger than life. it's supposed to be fantastic. It's supposed to be about people with extraordinary powers doing extraordinary things. If you take that basic premise away you have a shallow and lame mockery of an classic genre.

[Lord Fyre]

Re: Where have all the Superheroes gone?

 

Superheroes are heroes with abilities beyond us normal people. The term superhero has no meaning if taken away from the word hero, i.e. if we didn't know what a hero was, we wouldn't know what a superhero is. So I rephrase the question as: Do we still need heroes?

 

Yes!

 

Heroes rise to the challenge of making the world a better place, giving us a hope when hopelessness arises. Heroes make difficult decisions and at times, sacrifice their lives to help others.

 

Yes, we can all use a hero/superhero.

 

My question was that with our current world is "Are Superheroes" now really kind of childish. trite, and irrelevant." The answer on this thread has been pretty clear.

 

Absolutely! Yes, we need heroes now more then ever. But part of the angst, cynicism, and disaffection that caused the question has also been coming up. - our current culture seems intent on tearing heroes down.

 

The comics industry also seems to have lost their way on this issue. Look at how dark, violent, and grim superhero stories have become (DC especially) in pursuit of more "realistic" and "mature" storytelling. Some of these stories - The Killing Joke, God Loves, Man Kills, Daredevil: Born Again, to name a few, are examples of brilliant writing - but most of these "iron age" stories are just as trite (and less fun) as the writing they are trying to replace.

[Peregrine]

Re: Where have all the Superheroes gone?

 

Shouldn't this discussion really be in the NGD?

 

Given the ideology reflected in the OP's list... as long as we don't debate the ideology, its tenets, and present its opposing viewpoint (IOW, we let the ideological position stand unchallenged ) we should be able to back away from the NGDness.

 

If not, then yeah, it should be taken there.

[Force]

Re: Where have all the Superheroes gone?

 

Absolutely! Yes' date=' we need heroes now more then ever. But part of the angst, cynicism, and disaffection that caused the question has also been coming up. - our current culture seems intent on tearing heroes down. [/size']

 

I don't see this. I can see this in some story lines in comics, but 'our current culture' does not seem intent on tearing heroes down.

 

The comics industry also seems to have lost their way on this issue. Look at how dark' date=' violent, and grim superhero stories have become (DC especially) in pursuit of more "realistic" and "mature" storytelling. Some of these stories - [u']The Killing Joke[/u], God Loves, Man Kills, Daredevil: Born Again, to name a few, are examples of brilliant writing - but most of these "iron age" stories are just as trite (and less fun) as the writing they are trying to replace.

 

I agree that the comics industry has lost it's way. I don't agree on the premise of how or why it has lost it's way.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Where have all the Superheroes gone?

 

Not to burst any bubbles or anything....

 

but didn't Issue #1 of Captain America have him punching out Hitler on the cover? Released before the US entered the war ....

 

Superheroes have been "dealing with the issues of the day" since the beginning.

[OddHat]

Re: Where have all the Superheroes gone?

 

Absolutely! Yes' date=' we need heroes now more then ever. But part of the angst, cynicism, and disaffection that caused the question has also been coming up. - our current culture seems intent on tearing heroes down.[/quote']

 

Superheroes are doing better in movies and on TV than they ever have before. They rake in billions (the low billions, but still) when you add together the full range of media crossovers and merchandising. Our culture is fine with them.

 

The comics industry also seems to have lost their way on this issue. Look at how dark, violent, and grim superhero stories have become (DC especially) in pursuit of more "realistic" and "mature" storytelling. Some of these stories - The Killing Joke, God Loves, Man Kills, Daredevil: Born Again, to name a few, are examples of brilliant writing - but most of these "iron age" stories are just as trite (and less fun) as the writing they are trying to replace.

 

So this is an anti-Iron Age thing? I'm not a fan of what the big two are doing these days myself, though I'd say that, from a technical standpoint, on average the art and writing are better than they used to be. Shame about the layers of childish politics and pop psychology, the shock for shock's sake, and the power given to celebrity writers and artists when working with mainstream characters. The most personally annoying bit is that the same Celeb writers who produce first rate material when working on a pet project will barf absolute drek onto the page when asked to work on a series they dislike.

 

Anyway, the Iron Age anti-superhero bit in comics isn't universal, and the pendulum shows some faint signs of swinging the other way. I don't read much of the big two these days, and I can usually find some solid Superhero stories from smaller publishers if I feel the need.

[OddHat]

Re: Where have all the Superheroes gone?

 

Not to burst any bubbles or anything....

 

but didn't Issue #1 of Captain America have him punching out Hitler on the cover? Released before the US entered the war ....

 

Superheroes have been "dealing with the issues of the day" since the beginning.

 

By punching them. It's the Superhero way.

[TheRavenIs]

Re: Where have all the Superheroes gone?

 

The idea of a Superhero in the modern world still works and I can see it working in the years to come. Superheroes are the modern mythology. Many of us still see our Heroes as real heroes, not villians that happen to now and then do something that appears to be good.

 

I don't have a probleam with a comic book Hero having peronal probleams. Being human and being a Superhero is not mutualy exclusive.

[The Monster]

Re: Where have all the Superheroes gone?

 

On a positive note, I think the success of the "Heroes" TV series is a fascinating example of how superheroes have really entered the mainstream (the recent spate of not-bad superhero movies also shows this). It's a prime-time, successful dramatic series about people with superpowers (successful enough to have been revews for at least one more season, anyway). That hasn't happened much, if ever, on TV ("Wonder Woman" tried occasionally, and "Incredible Hulk" really only used the Hulk as a plot device/special effect and little else).

 

I think it's also very much worth noting that nobody in Heroes wears a costume - it's very much about "normal" people, who have (mostly) "normal" problems, who also have to deal with these weird powers. The fact that there's no spandex cuts way down on the silliness of traditional comics; their willingness to address issues from drug abuse to government coverups and everything else allows the audience to take the characters seriously. The fact that some of the most heroic characters have no powers also helps, IMO.

 

So there is definitely a place for heroes, even superheroes, in the public imagination, even beyond the comics/sci-fi/fantasy subculture. I don't know how much place there is for the good old spandex-and-cape crowd; some movies are making it work, though. The real issue is that it has to be done well, and the story has to be allowed to take itself seriously, at least within genre. If the material (and the people involved) can't show respect for itself, the project is doomed. And it's hard to steer that course when dealing with people in outlandish costumes whose primary occupation is beating on other people in outlandish costumes.

 

Oh, gosh, I'm pushing this more toward NGD, aren't I? Sorry...

[Victim]

Re: Where have all the Superheroes gone?

 

The idea of a Superhero in the modern world still works and I can see it working in the years to come. Superheroes are the modern mythology. Many of us still see our Heroes as real heroes, not villians that happen to now and then do something that appears to be good.

 

I don't have a probleam with a comic book Hero having peronal probleams. Being human and being a Superhero is not mutualy exclusive.

 

On the other hand, classic heroes from mythology have a lot more than personal problems. They unleash some pretty serious bloodbaths too. In fact, iron age groups generally seem to come out ahead morally. Why does modern mythology require saintly heroes when no other form has?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Where have all the Superheroes gone?

 

By punching them. It's the Superhero way.

 

awww heck. I can't rep you for that.

[Tim]

Re: Where have all the Superheroes gone?

 

On the other hand' date=' classic heroes from mythology have a lot more than personal problems. They unleash some pretty serious bloodbaths too. In fact, iron age groups generally seem to come out ahead morally. Why does modern mythology require saintly heroes when no other form has?[/quote']

 

Our HEROES should be better than we are. Not more flawed.

[Lord Fyre]

Re: Where have all the Superheroes gone?

 

On the other hand' date=' classic heroes from mythology have a lot more than personal problems. They unleash some pretty serious bloodbaths too. In fact, iron age groups generally seem to come out ahead morally. Why does modern mythology require saintly heroes when no other form has?[/quote']

 

That is easy to answer.

 

Most of the "Great" modern comic heroes - Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Spiderman, The Hulk, The X-Men - either had to survive or were created during the era of The Comics Code Authority. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comics_Code)

 

While that is no longer in effect anymore, its legacy still 'colors' the Superhero world.

[McManus]

Re: Where have all the Superheroes gone?

 

On a positive note, I think the success of the "Heroes" TV series is a fascinating example of how superheroes have really entered the mainstream (the recent spate of not-bad superhero movies also shows this). It's a prime-time, successful dramatic series about people with superpowers (successful enough to have been revews for at least one more season, anyway). That hasn't happened much, if ever, on TV ("Wonder Woman" tried occasionally, and "Incredible Hulk" really only used the Hulk as a plot device/special effect and little else).

 

I think it's also very much worth noting that nobody in Heroes wears a costume - it's very much about "normal" people, who have (mostly) "normal" problems, who also have to deal with these weird powers. The fact that there's no spandex cuts way down on the silliness of traditional comics; their willingness to address issues from drug abuse to government coverups and everything else allows the audience to take the characters seriously. The fact that some of the most heroic characters have no powers also helps, IMO.

 

So there is definitely a place for heroes, even superheroes, in the public imagination, even beyond the comics/sci-fi/fantasy subculture. I don't know how much place there is for the good old spandex-and-cape crowd; some movies are making it work, though. The real issue is that it has to be done well, and the story has to be allowed to take itself seriously, at least within genre. If the material (and the people involved) can't show respect for itself, the project is doomed. And it's hard to steer that course when dealing with people in outlandish costumes whose primary occupation is beating on other people in outlandish costumes.

 

This brings up an interesting question … what makes a super hero.

 

Successful TV shows about people with superpowers, or powers beyond the norm, have been around for quite some time.

 

To name a few –

Adventures of Superman 1952-58

My Favorite Martian 1963-66

Bewitched 1964-72

I Dream of Jeannie 1965-70

Batman 1966-68

The Six Million Dollar Man 1974-78

Wonder Woman 1975-79

The Amazing Spider-Man 1976-1979

The Incredible Hulk 1978-82

The Greatest American Hero 1981-83

The Adventures of Superboy 1988–1992

The Flash 1990-91

Lois & Clark 1993-97

Buffy the Vampire Slayer 1997-2003

Mutant X 2001-2004

Smallville 2001-200?

Heroes 2006-20??

 

There have been superpowered folk on TV almost since it's inception. I agree that it is nice to see them do well, but it is not new.

[Balabanto]

Re: Where have all the Superheroes gone?

 

Heh. Wait for Mind over Matter.

 

It's about just this sort of thing.

[Remjin]

Re: Where have all the Superheroes gone?

 

I'm hearing a lot about comics going back to silver/golden or whatever age and sticking with superheroism.. I don't really see the point of that.

 

However, I don't see the point of sticking everything into reality.

 

There are so many books out there, so many different kinds of comics, what I don't understand is why people feel ALL comics should be one way or the other. Appeal to the large variety, and you'll have a nice diversified portfolio, like in stock. Its stable, has lots of good points, and a few bad ones won't ruin the whole.

 

I like dark comics, "realistic" comics, flashy old school comics, all of the above. Tell me a good story, I don't care, and I'll read it.

 

Ethnicity in comics is always ruined by, as someone stated, too much focus on the fact of the ethnicity. Milestone, if I remember correctly, was all about having more black heroes. That, inherently, wasn't going to do well because of its initial focus on race. Just make a world, have cool heroes and villains, and lets keep the politics out of it. The whole PC thing is stupid. With all the efforts for variety and new ideas, you'd think, at the very least, you'd mix it up just to have a different look or different characters.

 

Superheroes are back in popular media, that's good, maybe we'll see something worth reading. Dunno, I stopped reading after they destroyed the universe like 3 times in one year just to keep pumping out new issue #1s and spiffy covers and all that. Wow, been like 12 years since I picked one up, maybe I should stop by a shop sometime... I'd love it if there were some good things out there.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Where have all the Superheroes gone?

 

By punching them. It's the Superhero way.

 

I can't speak for everyone, but my uncles lived during WW2 (and fought in it), and their attitude seemed to be that the best way to deal with some people -- typically, the cruel, bullying, manipulative, or just plain dishonest --was to punch their lights out.

 

While I don't know how common an attitude that was among Americans in general back then, it could explain a lot about the way superheroes and pulp heroes conducted themselves. Heck, go and read collections of Lil' Abner or Popeye or Dick Tracy; they have violence by the ton.

[OddHat]

Re: Where have all the Superheroes gone?

 

I can't speak for everyone, but my uncles lived during WW2 (and fought in it), and their attitude seemed to be that the best way to deal with some people -- typically, the cruel, bullying, manipulative, or just plain dishonest --was to punch their lights out.

 

While I don't know how common an attitude that was among Americans in general back then, it could explain a lot about the way superheroes and pulp heroes conducted themselves. Heck, go and read collections of Lil' Abner or Popeye or Dick Tracy; they have violence by the ton.

 

Sure. Much of my love for the Superhero genre is that it mainly features problems that can be solved by finding the correct person and then punching him. Heck, that describes at least half of the genre fiction and films I like. And yes, it's a common point of view among people who've been through war time.

 

Dealing with problems that can't be solved with a punch (or other simple, direct action: a kiss, an apology, a fair and honest negotiation) is fine, and sometimes can make for very satisfying gaming. Unfortunately, as Ken Hite noted, you often get preaching on the lines of the 1970s "You can't punch child poverty with a big green boxing glove, Green Lantern." Or worse, you get Captain Planet.

 

You also get problems Supers could solve, and elaborate rationalizations of why they don't (Alan Moore's Swamp Thing). I'd much rather either let the hero solve the problem ("In this world, the decline of the Rain Forests was a serious threat before The Rainy Man restored them and provided alternate sources of income to farmers"), or not mention it. Having Superheroes come out with "I can't stop genocide, because that would mean interfering with the internal affairs of a sovereign nation" just makes them look like putzes.

[Powerhouse]

Re: Where have all the Superheroes gone?

 

This does seem to be more NGD.

 

That said, heroes are something that society always need not only to protect us and save us but give us an example. Sure, I can't lift 50 tons like Hyperman but I CAN get involved in charity or help ONE person.

 

As Jor El said:

 

"They can be a great people Kal-el, they truly wish to be. They lack but the light to show them the way."