How many points does a person have?

[薔薇語]

Hello everyone,

 

 

Every once and a while I get the notion to run a campaign with my friends where they play, well themselves. I usually do this with the intent to move them from themselves into being something extraordnary. Something like the Old DnD show. Well anyway my question is for those out there that have tried something to this effect before with there friends. How many points did they build themselves on? I was curious about this aspect, and wanted to settle it for myself namely, before bringing it to anyone. How many points? At first I thought about not worry about points and have them do there right ups with no bounds (other than realism)afterall not everyone is created equal . And then just as the game progressed maintain equallity after the build*(ie same value toys and exp, just like a normal game). Has anyone tried this? Have there been any revelations on how best to go about this that I might want to know ahead of time? Anyway I was just curious what others have done out there, and what seems to of worked.

 

Thank you

La Rose

---Sir Teleportation---

[Edsel]

Re: How many points does a person have?

 

Unless you are really exceptional it is hard to justify more than 25 points plus 25 points of disadvantages. In fact that is being generous since normal every day people are more usually built on 0 plus a few points from disadvantages. If any of your group happen to be real-life commandos, Olympic athletes, or the like you could get into the 50 + 50 disadvantages range.

 

One of the funnest games I ever ran was with normal people (0 + 25 points of disadvantages) going up against zombie hordes. Few points does not mean that the game has to be boring.

[薔薇語]

Re: How many points does a person have?

 

Unless you are really exceptional it is hard to justify more than 25 points plus 25 points of disadvantages. In fact that is being generous since normal every day people are more usually built on 0 plus a few points from disadvantages. If any of your group happen to be real-life commandos, Olympic athletes, or the like you could get into the 50 + 50 disadvantages range.

 

One of the funnest games I ever ran was with normal people (0 + 25 points of disadvantages) going up against zombie hordes. Few points does not mean that the game has to be boring.

 

 

I certainly agree with you on everything. But as a side note Dr. Anomoly use to have a build of himself that his old player group helped him make. He costed, I think 120ish points. And although there could be a little trimming it seemed very reasonable. Granted I know others that I could probably build on less than 0 points as well just to be generous.

 

And yes a low power campaign can be serious fun.

 

La Rose

[TaxiMan]

Re: How many points does a person have?

 

Depends upon how many spoons you own.

[OddHat]

Re: How many points does a person have?

 

Many threads on this, and many opinions.

 

Personally, I'd just give people 25 points plus up to 25 in disads and tell them to build versions of themselves, and then build the challenges accordingly. The game rules don't and can't perfectly simulate reality, and it's a waste of time arguing with someone about just how knowledgeable he is on subject X.

 

You'll always get one or more players who insist they have 30 points in Martial Arts, every useful combat skill, a dozen weapon proficiencies, etc. The easiest way to deal with them is to tell them that this is a 25+25 (or 50+50, or whatever) game, then help them pare down their skill lists to something workable. The most entertaining way is to tell them "If you can survive a backwards jump off of that roof top onto the street without injuries, I'll let you have 13- Breakfall".

 

My rule on skills is that a hobby is about 8-, something you've been paid decent money for is about 11-, and if you want 13- or better you've won a few competitions or awards performing that skill. If your group does include a PhD, someone with Special Forces training, an Olympian or similar, let them take a 14- in their area of greatest expertise and a few support skills.

 

The temp working the phones has an 8- PS, the second level tech they call in to solve serious problems has an 11-, the smart guy they call in to solve the really serious problems probably has a 12- and a few support skills for complimentary skill rolls, and the genius with a 13- is just working here until he can start with a top firm or get back on track for a University professorship somewhere.

 

My rule on stats is that an 8 is the average guy on the street, a 10 is someone fit and competent, 11 or so is someone you really notice for that trait (the genuinely smart kid, the prettiest girl in the office, the three times a week athlete), 13 or so is someone who can make a living with that trait (the kid who wins a scholarship and a TA position, the girl who successfully models), and an 18 is someone truly exceptional (the Phi Beta Kappa kid who goes on to win a Genius Grant and produces a well reviewed novel, the jock who wins a place in the World's Strongest Man competition or the NBA). 23s do happen in the real world (the current official world deadlift record holders have STR in the 23 range, and strong man stories if true indicate that a few 25+ STR guys show up now and then), but they are extremely rare.

 

Your Wiccan player can't have a 10 point VPP unless you actually see him use his super powers, unless it's meant to be that kind of game.

 

Most people overestimate their Intelligence and Strength; I'd just put up with it. It's only a game.

[Comic]

Re: How many points does a person have?

 

I had a friend who built himself on 520 points.

 

Of course, he wasn't a very efficient build, and he must've rolled terribly on damage, STR for lifting, Dex checks and uses of Pre-based skills with women.

 

But 520 points. His 17- KS of a dozen gaming systems alone cost a bundle.

[Outsider]

Re: How many points does a person have?

 

I agree that people tend to overrate their skills/stats. What we are doing when we do that, I think, is taking those areas where we know more than many or most of our fellows and thinking that that superiority of knowledge means that we must have some actual skill in that area. Then we fall into the additional trap of inflating those skills based on our perception of our relative knowledge in an area compared to other people we know who aren't completely clueless in that area.

 

PS : Another thing to remember about HERO system is that all skills/abilities are not created equal. The more useful something is in combat, or the more likely it is to come up in a dramatic scene, the more it will cost. One martial maneuver can cost as many points as a PhD level knowledge skill.

[Edsel]

Re: How many points does a person have?

 

One group I played with did this once. They had each player list what they thought their relevant skills, abilities, strengths and weaknesses were. Then the rest of the group built that person's character by committee. In this case each of the players were good friends who had known each other for years. Be careful with this approach though since it can be easy to offend the thin-skinned.

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: How many points does a person have?

 

The perfect, the ultimate number of points is obviously 42.

[薔薇語]

Re: How many points does a person have?

 

The perfect' date=' the ultimate number of points is obviously 42.[/quote']

 

:thumbup:hmmm... I do believe your right on the money there. I do think I will do it with 42pts. But thanks again to everyone.

 

Now my next question is. Although I like the people I am giong to propose this to, and think it should run smoothly. Have anyone of you had experience witht this? Are there any common issues you have(in game, after the character build) with players? Are there any pitfalls that I should look out for?

 

La Rose

[Zorak1003]

Re: How many points does a person have?

 

I've used HERO for a lot of one shot Horror scenarios, usually with very normal, average guy PCs. No base points, Normal Characteristic Maxima, and a few psych, social, or even physical disads (like wearing glasses, asthma, that sort of thing) is more than enough.

 

I generally rate characteristics lower than 10 for truly average folks, predicated on STR- How many people do you know who can bench press 220 pounds? I figure all the other stats are simularly higher than what most people have at 10, so you're running from 5 to at most 13. That alone gives you enough for some skills.

[Deadly Rose]

Re: How many points does a person have?

 

I myself have run a few other these games myself.

 

What I ended up doing was having each player pick two Characteristics in which THEY themselves felt they were exceptional in.

My buddie Daine a 6'7" 200ib friend decided his two major characteristics were going to be Con and Body.

 

As for point cost 25 does seem like a bit much to me. I eneded up putting in 25 total into the two characteristics and I let everyone take the skills they have IRL; Languages, Computer Skills, ect.

 

In the end everyone worked out fine. I normally run a PT or Power Test to see how the characters work, run, strengths, weaknesses. This way when you get into the real deal compaign you'll know what to expect as will the players will have an idea on what they're "real" characters are capable of.

 

As for Disads, I had every person fill out some flaws they have, Phobias, social flaws, ect. This went into their disads. I didn't directly play off everyone they put on there, but I did enough.

 

Hope this helps.

[Deadly Rose]

Re: How many points does a person have?

 

The only problem I've ever had RUNNING the game is your "Brick" character will sometimes get into "SMASH" mode and feels that they can take on the world because it is infact a game.

Another issue is depending on how many people you have, will be the person who ends up being the undeling, this person is normally the person who's the INT kinda character. One of your players will FEEL weak because they can't help al the time.

 

It really just boils down to your players. You have nice players, you have great characters.

[OddHat]

Re: How many points does a person have?

 

I've used HERO for a lot of one shot Horror scenarios, usually with very normal, average guy PCs. No base points, Normal Characteristic Maxima, and a few psych, social, or even physical disads (like wearing glasses, asthma, that sort of thing) is more than enough.

 

I generally rate characteristics lower than 10 for truly average folks, predicated on STR- How many people do you know who can bench press 220 pounds? I figure all the other stats are simularly higher than what most people have at 10, so you're running from 5 to at most 13. That alone gives you enough for some skills.

 

Pedantic mode on (sorry). STR 10 isn't a 220 pound bench press. It's lifting 220 pounds off of the ground and staggering a few steps. According to the Ultimate Brick, p.9, STR 10 is a 154 pound Bench Press. Not uncommon at all. I've known 90 pound women who could manage it.

 

EDIT: Also note that anyone who hangs out with weekend athletes or even casual weight lifters knows plenty of people who bench over 220 pounds. It's not an unusual bench for people in moderately good shape.

 

Archermoo's wife can bench press 275, which is exceptionally good but not exactly unstoppable rampage strong. Not that I'd want to provoke either of the Archermoos into a rampage.

[Sir Ofeelya]

Re: How many points does a person have?

 

How many points did they build themselves on?

La Rose

---Sir Teleportation---

 

Well, I am at least a 300 pt Hero.

[Edsel]

Re: How many points does a person have?

 

I'd say the best bet is to give each player 25 points plus up to 25 points of disadvantages. Then let the group critique their design. However be generous and let the player have final say over their own build. People may have unrealistic or completely different views of themselves but it is just a game.

[Zorak1003]

Re: How many points does a person have?

 

"Pedantic mode on (sorry). STR 10 isn't a 220 pound bench press. It's lifting 220 pounds off of the ground and staggering a few steps. According to the Ultimate Brick, p.9, STR 10 is a 154 pound Bench Press. Not uncommon at all. I've known 90 pound women who could manage it.

 

EDIT: Also note that anyone who hangs out with weekend athletes or even casual weight lifters knows plenty of people who bench over 220 pounds. It's not an unusual bench for people in moderately good shape."

 

Pedantic reply- I don't have the Ultimate Brick. Pretend I said LIFT.

 

If you choose from weightlifters, I'm sure plenty can lift heavy weights. Now include their moms, their little sisters, their 80 year olf grandfathers, the guys in the office they work with... What PERCENTAGE of those do you suppose can lift that? My point is, 10 does not, and was never meant to, reflect the reality of the AVERAGE person, just a rather arbitrary baseline for heroes to start.

[wylodmayer]

Re: How many points does a person have?

 

I think after my last pass at building myself in HERO I came out to be about 35 points plus disads. I don't think my build was unreasonable. I rolled together as many of my "miscellaneous" knowledge skills as I could (like KS: RPGs, instead of taking one for each system) and I don't recall having any skill higher than about 12. I do have a lot of knowledge skills... however, I'm halfway through an MA, I have two BAs, four undergrad minors, and a previous (five year) career in another field unrelated to any of those. So... I actually do have a lot of knowledge skills. Plus, some of my physical stats have come up lately, since I've been hitting the gym five days a week for the past seven months (although they've only come up, now, to about average, from pathetically below average).

 

I can't imagine anyone I know being built on more than, say, 50 to 75 base points. I know one guy who is probably at the outer edge of that, a fella I went to high school with. Former Eagle Scout and third degree black belt in Wado karate, shotputter on the track and field team, an excellent artist and bass guitar player, and currently the holder of three MAs and a PhD. He's got a significant number of points. But I wouldn't hazard that even he breaks 75, maybe 100, base.

[OddHat]

Re: How many points does a person have?

 

 

Pedantic reply- I don't have the Ultimate Brick. Pretend I said LIFT.

 

Quite a difference between lift off the ground and bench press. If I recall correctly, it was lift/press in 1st and 2nd, but switched to just lift around the BBB. At any rate, it's lift from the ground in 5th.

 

If you choose from weightlifters, I'm sure plenty can lift heavy weights. Now include their moms, their little sisters, their 80 year olf grandfathers, the guys in the office they work with... What PERCENTAGE of those do you suppose can lift that? My point is, 10 does not, and was never meant to, reflect the reality of the AVERAGE person, just a rather arbitrary baseline for heroes to start.

 

Well, kinda.

 

Official Average for normals in HERO 5thER is 8. Still, if you're just looking at lifting 220 pounds off of the ground and staggering a few steps, I'd say a majority of healthy adult males could manage it. It's not all that much. Lift your moderately chubby friends at your next gaming session; fun for all the family.

 

Figure in pre-teens, infants and the elderly and the numbers of course go down, but so what? I was pointing out that a HERO lift is a lift from the ground, not a bench press; you are of course free to interpret it as you like in your home game.

[OddHat]

Re: How many points does a person have?

 

I think after my last pass at building myself in HERO I came out to be about 35 points plus disads. I don't think my build was unreasonable. I rolled together as many of my "miscellaneous" knowledge skills as I could (like KS: RPGs' date=' instead of taking one for each system) and I don't recall having any skill higher than about 12. I [i']do[/i] have a lot of knowledge skills... however, I'm halfway through an MA, I have two BAs, four undergrad minors, and a previous (five year) career in another field unrelated to any of those. So... I actually do have a lot of knowledge skills. Plus, some of my physical stats have come up lately, since I've been hitting the gym five days a week for the past seven months (although they've only come up, now, to about average, from pathetically below average).

 

I can't imagine anyone I know being built on more than, say, 50 to 75 base points. I know one guy who is probably at the outer edge of that, a fella I went to high school with. Former Eagle Scout and third degree black belt in Wado karate, shotputter on the track and field team, an excellent artist and bass guitar player, and currently the holder of three MAs and a PhD. He's got a significant number of points. But I wouldn't hazard that even he breaks 75, maybe 100, base.

 

All depends on how you build a "normal", as your comments on your KS getting folded together point out.

 

The rules don't closely simulate reality, nor are they really intended to; they're designed to simulate Heroic fiction, and started off simulating the world of comic books. Ultimately, paraphrasing Tetsuji, Hero is its own sub-genre.

 

The campaign, imo, is more important than strict accuracy. If it's appropriate for players to have 50, 100, or 150 point totals in the campaign, they'll be able to model themselves reasonably well, even if they end up having to lump some things together or indulge in a little padding.

 

It's hard enough to get two Hero-philes to agree on exactly what a skill or stat means in play even when both cite page numbers, let alone getting all of your players to agree that Player 1 is built on more points than Player 4. Better to say "You have X points, which should be enough for the challenges ahead. Build the best version of You you can on that."

[Cancer]

Re: How many points does a person have?

 

I suspect most players have the RL Required Psychlim Disad "Thinks he's better than he is", which, as it works out, provides most of the points in what ought to be the standard 0 + 25 point build for such games.

[Lamrok]

Re: How many points does a person have?

 

I tend to think I could build a pretty good version of myself for around negative one hundred points - maybe less - maybe a LOT less. That includes my mighty 13+ strength, and awesome 12- technical skills. It also includes loads limitations (I have a LOT of DNPCs, various physical limitations, and at least my share of psych lims.) If I had enough skills to balance my disads, I'd have been too busy to write this.

[eternal_sage]

Re: How many points does a person have?

 

my wife and i did this in nWoD, first as mortals, then as Vampires, Mages, and even Werewolves. it was fun, but i have to say even the mediocore stats you start with in nWoD was a bit to much in some places. haven't really tried this in HERO, altough i think i will very soon. zombie infestations are great fun.

[Mr_Yuck]

Re: How many points does a person have?

 

The campaign, imo, is more important than strict accuracy. If it's appropriate for players to have 50, 100, or 150 point totals in the campaign, they'll be able to model themselves reasonably well, even if they end up having to lump some things together or indulge in a little padding.

 

It's hard enough to get two Hero-philes to agree on exactly what a skill or stat means in play even when both cite page numbers, let alone getting all of your players to agree that Player 1 is built on more points than Player 4. Better to say "You have X points, which should be enough for the challenges ahead. Build the best version of You you can on that."

 

 

I totally agree.

I have tried this style of gaming only once and quickly realized you have to have the RIGHT players. There were all kinds of annoyed people over how they percieved each other.

 

As a general rule for me... I keep gaming 'reality' and Real World 'reality' two distinctly seperate things. I don't let them cross over to each other. Beside EDM is a STOP power!

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: How many points does a person have?

 

I recall getting into a big disagreement with someone over the Storyteller system and what an "average" person would be like. My argument was that even the average person generally has a few things that he or she is better than average at, counterbalanced by other things they're worse at (witness the two left feet attached to my clumsy ass, which would argue for a lower-than-average base Dexterity offset somewhat by skills like Archery and Artistic Expression for specific tasks in which I have good hand-eye coordination). His argument was that the average person would have exclusively flat average attributes and skills across the board.

 

I pity him the restaurant and auto mechanic experiences that must inform that world view.