Enforcer84 Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts That is a good point. Something I realized in a similar discussion - I have never in my life used a published setting, so artwork that is used to give a setting it's feel is wasted on me. I actively ignore art in game books half the time for this reason, to me it is just wasted space. But I have never been a visually driven person. I've always been a words driven person. I know the perils of "Too Much" production. But the otherside...if it's really poorly put together detracts from the Enjoyement. Heck, Look at Rifts. Some of the art is great some bad, it's cobbled together like a school project and Kevin is in dire need of an editor. But that's neither here nore there. I love HERO system Wouldn't dream of abandoning it. But it is getting harder to look at for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Mhoram Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts I know the perils of "Too Much" production. But the otherside...if it's really poorly put together detracts from the Enjoyement. Heck, Look at Rifts. Some of the art is great some bad, it's cobbled together like a school project and Kevin is in dire need of an editor. But that's neither here nore there. I love HERO system Wouldn't dream of abandoning it. But it is getting harder to look at for me. I agree. As long as the layout is okay, bad art doesn't affect me. Bad layout, that can be a deal killer (the WW D20 Gamma World - I have every book from every edition of Gamma World, and I skipped that one with the layout being half the reason). And by bad layout, I don't mean simplistic - I don't even mind the Palladium 2 column stuff, but busy layout with lots of boxes, or text flow that is hard to follow because of inserted stuff. Anything that looks more like a magazine (especially video game magazines) than a book turns me off. HERO's art may be going downhill, but the layout is rock solid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts I agree. As long as the layout is okay, bad art doesn't affect me. Bad layout, that can be a deal killer (the WW D20 Gamma World - I have every book from every edition of Gamma World, and I skipped that one with the layout being half the reason). And by bad layout, I don't mean simplistic - I don't even mind the Palladium 2 column stuff, but busy layout with lots of boxes, or text flow that is hard to follow because of inserted stuff. Anything that looks more like a magazine (especially video game magazines) than a book turns me off. HERO's art may be going downhill, but the layout is rock solid. True.. True... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheQuestionMan Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts Patrick Zircher http://paratime.ca/v_and_v/vav_covers.html LOL QM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wylodmayer Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts I just wanted to chime in, here. I also love HERO and wouldn't think of abandoning the system or the company's products. However, some items would be better off without art at all rather than with the art they have (I'm thinking about Teen Champions here, but there are others). I can't understand why this is the case. Certainly getting really good artists might cost, and I understand what it's like to work on a limited budget (me am graduate student). However, there are lots of talented artists out there who are trying to break into the field who would be willing to work cheap or even free just to get some work in front of some noses to be seen. Sites like deviantart (which isn't about what I thought it was going to be about, I'm sorry to say) abound with aspiring artists who would gladly volunteer pieces for little or no cost. Certainly many of them are abyssmal artists, but some are pretty good, for amateurs. The long and the short of it is, with so many people trying to get into the biz, and with so much talent out there, I find it difficult to believe that the art I'm seeing in some of the books is the best that HERO Games could get for the price. I find it more plausible to believe that there's a lack of diligence in seeking out that better art for as-much-or-less cost. Of course, I also understand that there is a danger - and thus a financial cost - associated with "trying out" new artists: namely, that they might not perform on schedule. I am also sympathetic to this concern. But if I might venture a humble suggestion, based in part on Lord Mhoram's point? Perhaps HERO could buy "generically appropriate" pieces from novice artists at rock-bottom prices - that is, not illustrations of any specific hero or spaceship, but illustrations of heroes and spaceships generally - and then use these as "go-to" filler art as needed in the books. It would cut down on costs as well as deadline pressures, in addition to providing a low-risk way of finding out if certain wannabe illustrators can turn in work on a schedule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAVeira Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts I've never met anyone who has picked up a gaming book and gone "Woah' date=' wait, can't play this - artwork is bad."[/quote'] I have and FLAGs will tell you the same. There is a long of people who have picked up a gaming book seen a terrible presentation and decide not read anymore or purchase the book. The idea is that if company cannot spent the time and money to put out a well presented book, then how good can the came be. I work for years in a book store and let me say that people do judge books by their covers. Best example I every had of this was with George R.R. Martin's A Game of Thrones hardcover. It had a complete silver cover, no picture with the title and author's name raised but not outline. So no one could read the title of the hardcover or the author. Sales were terrible. I complained to the publisher rep and they did change the hardcover cover and had a different one for the softcover edition. Fortunately, the rest of the series had better covers and sold very, very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroGM Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts ok, let's take a minute and read what I said While I'll go with the substance over flash, at the same time a good cover will pull a buyer to pick it up. Strong artwork on the inside can tempt a person to scan the book. Now then, I don't recall saying that good artwork alone SOLD the book. The idea was that if a book has a good cover, someone is more likely to pick it up and look at it. If they flip it open and good artwork is inside, they may actually take a few minutes to scan/read the book. Yes, the art can be great and the writing crap, no one is doubting that. If the art on the book doesn't jump off the shelf and grab you though it's just another book on the shelf. I've seen books with good art/bad writing and bad art/good writing. I've been through the Jeff Dee/Clyde Caldwell D&D eras, I've lived through New Mutants looking like chicken scratch. Flat out though, if the visual doesn't appeal to most people they're not going to pick up the book. If they do heavy odds it's because someone else has told them they need to get it/look at it or it's a writer they enjoy. Happens in comics and happens in RPGs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts Art is subjective, but when it comes to artwork, there's an obvious distinction between quality and non-quality, such as symmetrical characters (such as with Storn's work) and non-symmetrical characters (such as my attempts). When it comes to RPGs, especially comic-inspired RPGs, it's like buying a house. For some, if it has no curb appeal, there's no point looking inside. When looking on the inside, if the carpet and wall paper or painted walls are atrocious to the buyer, despite the functionality of the house, many will not buy it. Unlike buying a house where you can ask for a $5,000 allowance for carpet and painting, you can't ask for $5 back because of poor quality artwork. IMHO 4e artwork was much more professional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts I don't buy gaming books for artwork. I buy gaming books for gaming information. If I want artwork I'll buy an artbook. (Just weighing in the other side of that coin....) Art is a critical part of setting presentation in the absence of significant flavor text sections that would exceed artwork in space requirements and increase page-counts. While rules and crunchy content are a key component of gaming books (and could feasibly carry a core rules-book since drawing a mechanic isn't very interesting), it does not stand alone and is part of a bigger package. Die hard rules loving hero-philes may not care about packaging and marketing (some do...), but companies live and die on it whether we like it or not. This is doubly true when the genre in question is inspired by - and intended to reproduce - a sequential art medium in which stories are told primarily by art. This is much less true of genres other than supers (and anime based games), but for the space and punch artwork is a critical component for setting the impression and feel of most settings. What's more - no art is often better than bad art, because bad art leaves a negative first impression and implies - fair or not - a crap product and a crap presentation (to put a finer point on it than markdoc). I don't use hero setting books (aside from books with potential adversaries in them), but the art has been less than it should be in some of the other products. You have to win a second glance from most people before your stellar literary efforts will be considered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts I have and FLAGs will tell you the same. There is a long of people who have picked up a gaming book seen a terrible presentation and decide not read anymore or purchase the book. The idea is that if company cannot spent the time and money to put out a well presented book' date=' then how good can the came be.[/quote'] Presentation or Artwork? They aren't the same - crappy layout, and hard to follow presentation is a reason to put anything down. Bad artwork? Seriously? You've skipped out on a potentially new gaming experience because of artwork? ...... Oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts Patrick Zircher http://paratime.ca/v_and_v/vav_covers.html LOL QM Hey... I like some of that stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts Presentation or Artwork? They aren't the same - crappy layout, and hard to follow presentation is a reason to put anything down. Bad artwork? Seriously? You've skipped out on a potentially new gaming experience because of artwork? ...... Oh well. I disagree. Art sets a tone and gives an impression. That's why its there, right? But people who choose bad artwork for a product seem to missing the most basic premise for its presence - creating a good impression and sense of setting that will draw the reader into the more important text and crunchy bits - and to give it flavor (a good flavor...). I agree, bad layout is just as bad, if not worse, than bad artwork - and the actual mechanics and prose-description of the setting is more important - but its a package, and why would I want to play in a setting that looks bad? Or one created by someone whose aesthetic sense was that badly damaged? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemurion Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts Here's the way I see it. Art is part of the whole; and many judge the whole on the parts. If I pick something up and see that the art is not only bad but conspicuously amateurish, I am going to wonder about the product as a whole. Unless it's something I really want to pick up for other reasons, that product has to do more work to impress me enough to lay out money for it. As has been said before, a lack of art can be fine; anything except art which makes the product as a whole look shoddy. Once the product looks shoddy, people don't want to buy it. Art may not be the be all and end all, but bad art hurts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Mhoram Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts Here's the way I see it. Art is part of the whole; and many judge the whole on the parts. If I pick something up and see that the art is not only bad but conspicuously amateurish' date=' I am going to wonder about the product as a whole. Unless it's something I really want to pick up for other reasons, that product has to do more work to impress me enough to lay out money for it.[/quote'] I can see that. I just have a hard time getting into that mindset anymore. I don't buy a gamebook (other than HERO, where I buy them all) without reading multiple reviews, and commentary on it. My decision is pretty much made before I pick up the book - although I do sit in the bookstore and read the basics of character creation and combat before I buy any rulebook. Because game books cost so dang much, I haven't impulse bought a game book in over 10 years... or longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts On another point ... we've all gone on about how improved Storn has become through the years, and he was able to do that with professional artwork and getting the opportunity to be an artist. So - because we think someone's early artwork is bad we're not willing to give them the same chance to get better? You have to come out looking awesome? Or even really good? meh. Sure - I like good artwork. I've picked up a few gaming books and gone "Hey, cool art." Never bought one because of that. I want to know - all these words, what will they do for me. Because more often than not I look at character art (even great character art) and think "huh, doesn't really match the description..." and well, why have art that's wrong compared to the creators description? Anyways, it's obvious I am not only not the target of this gripe - I'm not even a typical game purchaser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts Patrick Zircher http://paratime.ca/v_and_v/vav_covers.html LOL QM Patrick Zircher, Now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts On another point ... we've all gone on about how improved Storn has become through the years, and he was able to do that with professional artwork and getting the opportunity to be an artist. So - because we think someone's early artwork is bad we're not willing to give them the same chance to get better? You have to come out looking awesome? Or even really good? meh. Ayup. Pat and Storn, a lot of our faves get better and better. I still buy the stuff and hope to see the same improvement from the new guys. I liked the work JC Cram and the Brothers Fraim were doing for the Ultimate Speedster and Ultimate Skill. Sure - I like good artwork. I've picked up a few gaming books and gone "Hey, cool art." Never bought one because of that. I want to know - all these words, what will they do for me. Because more often than not I look at character art (even great character art) and think "huh, doesn't really match the description..." and well, why have art that's wrong compared to the creators description? Anyways, it's obvious I am not only not the target of this gripe - I'm not even a typical game purchaser. U R Just not as Brillyent as I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wylodmayer Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts ghost-angel mentions that he never bought a book because of the art. I never have either, but while I know some people who have, I don't believe that's the main thrust of this discussion. The pertinent question is not whether good art can make someone buy a book, it's whether bad art can cause someone to not buy a book. Therein lies the crux of the concern; is the cruddy art in some recent HERO books hurting sales? I'd be willing to believe it is, not only because the primitive parts of our brain respond well to pretty things but because we respond very poorly to unpretty things. Graphic design and presentation in books are important - no retailer worth his salt will deny it. The hyper-logical types who buy strictly based on reviews can pooh-pooh the idea all they want, but - again as g-a mentioned - they are not the average consumer, and they do not drive sales figures. As for letting artists get better... let them do it on their own time. I don't shell out thirty bucks for a game book to subsidize some guy's art lessons. I could do better than much of what I see in recent books, and I'm not a very good artist on my best day. When I see someone who can't do better than me, a guy who took exactly one art class twenty years ago, well, I get the feeling that someone at the company just doesn't give a crap. Or has no taste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts On another point ... we've all gone on about how improved Storn has become through the years, and he was able to do that with professional artwork and getting the opportunity to be an artist. So - because we think someone's early artwork is bad we're not willing to give them the same chance to get better? You have to come out looking awesome? Or even really good? meh. In the particular case of Storn Cook, I always thought his early HERO work showed talent. Sure it had its flaws (as he himself has remarked on occasion), and he's a far better artist with these years of experience behind him; but IMHO he was always able to capture the essence of his subject and give it an interesting twist. Ditto Pat Zircher, Dennis Loubet, Scott Heine, Mark Williams and most of the old Hero Games stable. Not necessarily great, but always appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts On the point of getting better... one of the VVV artists, in a thread about that same product, actually posted himself as such, and welcomed the critiques as a way of improving himself. That showed both professionalism, and more guts than I think many would have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts I bought VVV at Origins and, for the first time I can remember, I felt like my joy for the system and its products had died a bit. I don't think it was the subject matter, since I've always loved books filled with characters and have bought and enjoyed similar products for other games recently. The art might have something to do with it, but I can't say for sure. If not the art, then I have no idea what it could be. All I know is that I give the book a resounding "meh" I plan to give NOTW a shot to see if it's still got any pull for me, but if VVV is any indication... NOTW is night and day better than VVV. Honestly, I find VVV to be a poor product. NOTW on the other hand is pretty much a must have for anyone with an interest in the CU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stone Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts To be honest, I have VVV and the previous villians book and have not read them all the way through because the artwork drives me nuts. If thats what Hero is paying for they'd better off not using any artwork. The artwork is simply bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts Personally I dont buy a gaming product for the art, but I am more willing to spend a premium on a well presented product and that includes the artwork. Further, artwork that is simply bad is counterproductive, and offends on multiple levels. As to those that say art appreciation is subjective, that is true to an extent, but it must be pointed out that the art that appears in a game book is not "fine art", but is rather "illustration" which is much more quantitative. Also, the idea that goes like "I can't draw a stick figure thus anyone who can draw more than that must be good enough to be a professional artist" is no different from the idea of "I can't write more than a few lines on a subject, thus anyone who can write more than that must be good enough to be a professional writer". It's obviously wrong on the face of it; better than bad is not necessarily equal to good. In the end, I'd rather see no art and more content than bad art, but I'd rather see good art than no art. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wylodmayer Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts In the end' date=' I'd rather see no art and more content than bad art, but I'd rather see good art than no art.[/quote'] You can't hit the point much more precisely than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Re: The artwork drives me nuts I think Art needs to lose a few pounds and that awful toupee before we put him back in spandex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts