Thoughts on some superhero origins

[assault]

For various reasons, I have been looking at characters that don't fit the standard DC/Marvel mold. In doing so, I have been looking at other more or less superheroic characters like the Phantom and Mandrake. Here are some notes on character types, including Marvel/DC examples:

 

1. The hero from another world. This character has been transported from their homeworld to somewhere else. They may be a human sent to another world, or an alien brought to Earth. They may periodically return "home".

Examples: John Carter, Adam Strange, J'onn J'onzz, Flash Gordon.

Advantages: alien abilities, high technology.

 

2. The Wild Man. This character has learned to survive in a "savage" environment.

Examples: Tarzan, Ka-Zar. Also, many of the characters in the previous category!

Advantages: skills, ruggedness.

Disadvantages: this genre is often associated with "stupid native syndrome", where an outsider becomes more capable than the long term inhabitants of an area.

 

3. The Jungle Lawman. A pretty standard crimefighter, except for being based in a remote environment. Usually has some of the attributes of the previous category.

Examples: The Phantom.

Advantages: skills, ruggedness, guns!

Disadvantages: this genre is often associated with "stupid native syndrome", where an outsider becomes more capable than the long term inhabitants of an area.

 

4. The Space Lawman. A pretty standard crimefighter, except that he or she operates on more than one planet. Often has some of the attributes of the first category.

Examples: Green Lantern (Silver Age), Hawkman and Hawkgirl (Silver Age), Space Ghost.

Advantages: high technology, sometimes alien powers.

 

5. The Stage Magician. May be an actual magician, or "merely" a mentalist.

Examples: Zatara, Zatanna, Mandrake.

Advantages: magical or mental powers.

 

The main advantage with building a team from characters like this is that it can avoid DC/Marvel homages.

 

Furthermore, in the official CU, most of these niches are still fairly open. Various characters possess some of these attributes, but it is still possible to successfully mine them.

[Dawn Darke]

Re: Thoughts on some superhero origins

 

Food for thought. Thanks.

 

There's also the un-evil person from evil archetype/race/species.

[McCoy]

Re: Thoughts on some superhero origins

 

3. The Jungle Lawman. A pretty standard crimefighter, except for being based in a remote environment. Usually has some of the attributes of the previous category.

Examples: The Phantom.

Advantages: skills, ruggedness, guns!

Disadvantages: this genre is often associated with "stupid native syndrome", where an outsider becomes more capable than the long term inhabitants of an area.

Don't know if you're old enough to remember this, and not exactly :superhero," but a reversal of this was McClound, a deputy sherriff from New Mexico being assigned to New York city.

 

Think Crocodile Dundee with a badge.

[Dawn Darke]

Re: Thoughts on some superhero origins

 

Don't know if you're old enough to remember this' date=' and not exactly :superhero," but a reversal of this was [i']McClound[/i], a deputy sherriff from New Mexico being assigned to New York city.

 

Think Crocodile Dundee with a badge.

 

Ooo, good one! Yeah, I've seen reruns and the archtype is cool.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Thoughts on some superhero origins

 

And before Mcloud, there was Vigilante. Has he ever been cooled up?

Aquaman works as a "Jungle Lawman," too. With the same problem that they all had. No banks to rob under the sea. At least Turok had dinosaurs to fight.

Skull the Slayer (gang of Bermuda Triangle survivors trapse through an underdefined weird setting, one of them equipped with a superpowers-thingamazoo) gave the concept far more story potential, much of it pissed away.

[OddHat]

Re: Thoughts on some superhero origins

 

"Stupid Native Syndrome" was classed by Jess Nevins as an aspect of the the "Raised by Indians" character type, well represented in literature. The character, almost always a White European, having been raised or trained by Indians / Black Africans / Australian Aborigines / Chinese / Any Non White, is a greater master of skills practiced by members of the "exotic" culture than any native of the source culture. Lots of overlap with the Halfbreed character type. Off the top of my head, Remo Williams (later retconned as a halfbreed), Cain from Kung Fu, Iron Fist, the lead character from that Viking Indian movie that just came out a few months back, the Shadow and many Pulp characters, Natty Bumpo, etc.

 

I'm not entirely inclined against the type; at least there's some respect for and interest in the skill-source culture (most of the time).

[Balabanto]

Re: Thoughts on some superhero origins

 

I live in New Jersey. With the possible exception of about 5 percent of the population, trust me. The stupid native syndrome is mostly real as far as this state is concerned.

 

Let's take a look at my place of employment. I'm pretty sure that sixty percent of the population can't read at higher than a 2nd grade level, and that most of the people who work in the mall where I work can't either.

 

So...stupid native syndrome? Not as unrealistic as you first thought. And yes, I work in a corporate department store where you are expected to have decent communications skills.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Thoughts on some superhero origins

 

Maybe "stupid native syndrome" is just the result of seeing a 75+75 character surrounded by 0+25 characters.

[Balabanto]

Re: Thoughts on some superhero origins

 

ROFL. I never really thought of myself or Oddhat as built on more points than those around them.

 

THAT'S FUNNY!

[Remjin]

Re: Thoughts on some superhero origins

 

"Stupid Native Syndrome" was classed by Jess Nevins as an aspect of the the "Raised by Indians" character type, well represented in literature. The character, almost always a White European, having been raised or trained by Indians / Black Africans / Australian Aborigines / Chinese / Any Non White, is a greater master of skills practiced by members of the "exotic" culture than any native of the source culture. Lots of overlap with the Halfbreed character type. Off the top of my head, Remo Williams (later retconned as a halfbreed), Cain from Kung Fu, Iron Fist, the lead character from that Viking Indian movie that just came out a few months back, the Shadow and many Pulp characters, Natty Bumpo, etc.

 

I'm not entirely inclined against the type; at least there's some respect for and interest in the skill-source culture (most of the time).

 

Viking Indian movie... "Pathfinder"

 

I just watched it last week. It was... umm... er... not very good. Slightly amusing, best if watched for free. =)

[Dawn Darke]

Re: Thoughts on some superhero origins

 

Viking Indian movie... "Pathfinder"

 

I just watched it last week. It was... umm... er... not very good. Slightly amusing, best if watched for free. =)

 

Thanks for the review. I'll wait till it's rental.

[Colossus]

Re: Thoughts on some superhero origins

 

Stupid Native Syndrome is a serious problem culturally, but it depends on the character. It often deals more with the author’s limitations (or the players). Mark Twain has a wonderful piece on how bad Cooper (the author who created Hawkeye in last of the Mohicans) was. He has some “Indians” actually miss a raft by jumping from a tree after it went by despite the fact that it was a 15 foot wide raft floating down a 20 foot river, giving it a clearance of 2.5 feet on either side (they could have simply step onto the boat!

 

This does not mean it is not an interesting character. Remember Ka-Zar was raised by a Saber-toothed Tiger and Tarzan by apes. Humans are in fact, at least in general, smarter than apes and I am assuming smarter than Saber-toothed cats. A lot of this is PC (main characters) vs. NPC. These characters transplanted to their parents native environments tend to be more skilled than the people their as well, what is cool is when a character blends native skills with non-native skills. The person raised partially in Victorian England and partially in a “savage land” would have amazing Skills.

 

Then again there is George of the Jungle, who is clearly less skilled than both the natives AND the apes!

[Alverant]

Re: Thoughts on some superhero origins

 

The "Stupid Native Syndrome" can be justified because the outsider offers a different point of view none of the natives consider and because the outsider is unaware of the natives' cultural norms and standards, or simply doesn't care. The outsider is, in comparison to the natives, extremely honest or deceptive and can cut through the societal niceties we're used to. An honest outsider would shoot the b@stard instead of capture for a trial. A deceptive outsider would give said b@stard enough proverbial rope to hang himself instead of revealing what he knows to authorities and let them take over. Either case we have someone who's cultural standards and morality is used instead of our own forcing us to ask why ours is better (or not).

 

For example Nebula from CU has a cop from another galaxy sending anyone who violates her set of laws to a "phantom zone". She solves our problems of supervillains by ignoring our judicial system. This is an extreme example because her set of laws is too swift and rigid for us (in her origin story she sent an Earth cop into this "phantom zone" for putting a restraining hand on her shoulder to ask her some questions).

 

Native: What did you do?

Outsider: I cut his head off.

N: Why?

O: He killed his wife and child. He deserved death.

N: But he's of noble blood!

O: So?

N: We don't DO that?

O: Why not?

N: Well... we just don't!

[Southern Cross]

Re: Thoughts on some superhero origins

 

Another option is the Hybrid character,who is only partially human.Namor and Aquaman are the classic comic-book examples (and InuYasha is the classic manga example),but this archetype is in fact the oldest archetype around-Gilgamesh was a demigod.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Thoughts on some superhero origins

 

"Stupid Native Syndrome" was classed by Jess Nevins as an aspect of the the "Raised by Indians" character type, well represented in literature. The character, almost always a White European, having been raised or trained by Indians / Black Africans / Australian Aborigines / Chinese / Any Non White, is a greater master of skills practiced by members of the "exotic" culture than any native of the source culture. Lots of overlap with the Halfbreed character type. Off the top of my head, Remo Williams (later retconned as a halfbreed), Cain from Kung Fu, Iron Fist, the lead character from that Viking Indian movie that just came out a few months back, the Shadow and many Pulp characters, Natty Bumpo, etc.

 

I'm not entirely inclined against the type; at least there's some respect for and interest in the skill-source culture (most of the time).

 

I would say that most of those characters you've listed are no better than their teachers. Kwai Chang Cain gave no indication of being any better than any other Shaolin, the Shadow was nowhere near as powerful as the Tulku, and Natty Bumppo was really no better at woodcraft than Chingachgook or Uncas. I haven't seen Pathfinder yet, but my impression of it was that the main character wasn't any better than his adopted family...he just got lucky in not being at home when the Vikings attacked.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Thoughts on some superhero origins

 

I live in New Jersey. With the possible exception of about 5 percent of the population, trust me. The stupid native syndrome is mostly real as far as this state is concerned.

 

Let's take a look at my place of employment. I'm pretty sure that sixty percent of the population can't read at higher than a 2nd grade level, and that most of the people who work in the mall where I work can't either.

 

So...stupid native syndrome? Not as unrealistic as you first thought. And yes, I work in a corporate department store where you are expected to have decent communications skills.

 

Yep. What % of big Hollywood stars are native Los Angelenos?

 

Add in some historical examples like Lawrence of Arabia, that Georgian fellow who took over Russia, that Corsican fellow who took over France, that Austrian guy who's running California...I don't think it's too strange.

 

Plus, from a storytelling standpoint it gives the reader someone more familiar to identify with, who discovers the other world/culture at the same time the reader does. Convenient that.

[OddHat]

Re: Thoughts on some superhero origins

 

I would say that most of those characters you've listed are no better than their teachers. Kwai Chang Cain gave no indication of being any better than any other Shaolin' date=' the Shadow was nowhere near as powerful as the Tulku, and Natty Bumppo was really no better at woodcraft than Chingachgook or Uncas. I haven't seen Pathfinder yet, but my impression of it was that the main character wasn't any better than his adopted family...he just got lucky in not being at home when the Vikings attacked.[/quote']

 

I'd disagree. Tarzan's jungle skills and combat abilities exceed that of any Black African or even any member of the Magani, and he's the most commonly cited example of the character type. Remo Williams is acknowledged as the greatest master of Sinanju, better even than Chiun in the most recent books. As to the Shadow, Kain or Bumpo, I'd bet hard cash on them defeating a native in any storyline; their triumphs are the whole point of their stories.

[Remjin]

Re: Thoughts on some superhero origins

 

As a whole, some of have taken some of those stories as "white men can do it all better," if you make a big effort to take offense at it. Overall, though, I've found the stories vary quite widely and its somewhat ethnocentricity is just based on what is the majority in the particular industry. =)

 

The whole Cain thing from Kung Fu stems from one of the later movies that had Brandon Lee in it. In that movie, that made it out that unlike the others who had mastered a single style, Carradine had mastered them ALL and was some kind of uber-monk or something. Movie really blew chunks (Hi, Chunks!) in any case.

 

I thought Remo Williams was supposed to be crap compared to Chiun? Though, from looking it up in Wikipedia, Remo apparently later becomes better than Chiun. *shrug* The movie, btw, was kind of hilarious. Chiun was so ridiculously insulting that it was funny. Yeah, it was kind of lame, but hey... watched it cuz my kung fu teacher told me it was a good time. hehe. Also, btw, watching Deuce Bigalow, Male Gigalo with him was hilarious by itself.

 

Pathfinder was kind of annoying. Apparently that tribe was a bunch of retards who couldn't do anything without their norse adopted son... bleh. No matter who they had for that character, though, it was still a pretty boring movie. It was like they had that one scene with him coming out of the water, thought it was cool, and built a movie around it.

 

The overall convention is interesting, though, and makes for interesting stories in its various forms.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Thoughts on some superhero origins

 

I'd disagree. Tarzan's jungle skills and combat abilities exceed that of any Black African or even any member of the Magani' date=' and he's the most commonly cited example of the character type. Remo Williams is acknowledged as the greatest master of Sinanju, better even than Chiun in the most recent books. As to the Shadow, Kain or Bumpo, I'd bet hard cash on them defeating a native in any storyline; their triumphs are the whole point of their stories.[/quote']

 

Tarzan's an unfair example. He had to be exceedingly strong to survive living with the apes, and even then he was nothing but a 200 lb weakling until he found the knife. He was only strong in comparison to a human, and only smart in comparison to an ape. Well, there was the whole teaching himself to read thing, but that was more a way for him to communicate later in the story when he met the Porter expedition.

 

I can't speak for Remo Williams, having never read any of the books or even seen the movie, but those other guys, while they win their fights, don't always win completely enough to say to me that they're that totally superior to their cultural peers. Bumppo only lived through the Deerslayer because a girl begged for his life, IIRC.

[casualplayer]

Re: Thoughts on some superhero origins

 

Does Stupid Native Syndrome mean that Herculan has been right and justified in his actions all these years?

[OddHat]

Re: Thoughts on some superhero origins

 

Tarzan's an unfair example. He had to be exceedingly strong to survive living with the apes' date=' and even then he was nothing but a 200 lb weakling until he found the knife. He was only strong in comparison to a human, and only smart in comparison to an ape. Well, there was the whole teaching himself to read thing, but that was more a way for him to communicate later in the story when he met the Porter expedition.[/quote']

 

Again, I'd disagree. I haven't read the entire Tarzan series, but I've read about 10 or so of the Borroughs books. Tarzan is much smarter than the average white, picking up languages and skills like mad, and more than able to defeat even bull Magani in combat. Like many pulp heroes, he was a polymath as well as a physical prodigy. Tarzan the idiot is a product of the films, not the books.

 

Also note that Tarzan doesn't have to be "better than an Ape" to qualify as an outsider whose skills surpass those of a native (though he is); he just has to be better than an African tribesman.

 

For an extensive discussion of the character and his role in male identity at the turn of the century, I'd suggest Houdini, Tarzan and the Perfect Man by John Kasson.

[Matt Frisbee]

Re: Thoughts on some superhero origins

 

I could stand the Remo Williams movie just fine -- the master's obsession with soap opera and general distain for the rest of humanity was worth the price of admission. Five pages of one of the novels, though, had me gagging with excessive testosterone poisoning. If you're in a mood to watch something slightly different and you've had your fill of La Femme Nikita, Remo Williams is worth a bargain rent (though it might be easier to dredge it up from the bargain bin).

[OddHat]

Re: Thoughts on some superhero origins

 

I could stand the Remo Williams movie just fine -- the master's obsession with soap opera and general distain for the rest of humanity was worth the price of admission. Five pages of one of the novels' date=' though, had me gagging with excessive testosterone poisoning. If you're in a mood to watch something slightly different and you've had your fill of La Femme Nikita, Remo Williams is worth a bargain rent (though it might be easier to dredge it up from the bargain bin).[/quote']

 

The Remo William books, with the exception of the first, are meant as action with a heavy dose of satire. The quality varies a lot over the run of the series. Not to everybody's taste, but the good ones are fun in a pulp kind of way. YMMV (and did vary), of course.