Damage for lightsabers

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Damage for lightsabers

 

Lightsaber: Elemental Control, 72-point powers, (36 Active Points); all slots OAF Durable (-1), EGO Minimum 18 (CV penalties as though STR Minimum) (-1), No Knockback (-1/4), No Bleeding (-1/4), Untunable (Always Max Dice) (-1/4), -1 Decreased STUN Multiplier (-1/4)

1) Lightsaber: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6-1 (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), AVLD vs. Combat Luck, Dodge-Based Defense, or Energy-Based ED Force Field/Wall (+3/4), Does BODY (+1) (81 Active Points); OAF Durable (-1), No STR Bonus (Adds Martial DCs at 4:1) (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4)

2) Active Lightsaber: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6 (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Damage Shield (+1/2), AVLD vs. Dodge-Based Defense (e.g. Combat Luck) or Energy-Based Force Field/Wall (+3/4), Continuous (+1), Does BODY (+1) (71 Active Points); OAF Durable (-1), Specific Beam Only (Only With Block / Missile Deflection / Beam Touched) (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4)

 

Just to throw out another version of it, y'know?

 

I created the 'EGO Minimum' variation on STR Min to indicate that unless you had a strong will -- and those with the Force pretty much invariably have a high EGO -- would have the self-control necessary to be able to wield a lightsaber without issues to start out with. Low-line apprentice blades most likely do not have that issue. Untunable, of course, is a variation on 'Beam' that can be removed with XP at a later time -- when the character rebuilds the saber, of course.

 

And I kept the weird metals out of the AVLD, mainly because they're so rare that it practically isn't worth putting in. I'd instead buy those armors/weapons with an advantage to indicate that they stop the lightsaber AVLD...

 

I don't understand the point of this Limitation:

Specific Beam Only (Only With Block / Missile Deflection / Beam Touched) (-1/4)

 

It almost seems to be describing additional aspects of the AVLD exceptions but if that were the case it should just be a reduction of that Advantage, not an additional Limitation.

 

The STR doesn't add HKA is equivalent to a No Range RKA so the only real difference between this and my previous build is the EGO instead of STR min and AVLD vs NND.

 

Nice alternative regardless.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Damage for lightsabers

 

I don't understand the point of this Limitation:

Specific Beam Only (Only With Block / Missile Deflection / Beam Touched) (-1/4)

 

It almost seems to be describing additional aspects of the AVLD exceptions but if that were the case it should just be a reduction of that Advantage, not an additional Limitation.

 

'Specific Beam Only (-1/4)' is on the RKA portion -- which is the portion that is a Damage Shield. Poking the back of a Jedi isn't going to get you seared by his lightsaber*; only actually touching the beam of the lightsaber is going to get you sliced.

 

If, on the other hand, you want to change 'Damage Shield (+1/2)' to 'Damage Shield (Limited Shield, Specific Beam; +1/4)' instead... *shrug* That's fine too. Real Cost goes from 14 to 16.

 

Also, note that I indicated that while STRENGTH doesn't add into the Damage, SKILL does. If you want to make that an RKA, that's fine, too...

 

* -- unless he's especially jumpy that day...

[Jachra]

Re: Damage for lightsabers

 

3.b (The blasters) would be putting it in a MP with Missile deflection

 

I wouldn't necessarily make Missile Deflection an inherent part of the weapon. Any schmuck can pick up a lightsaber and learn to use it, but only a Jedi (someone with, say, Spatial Awareness or whatever appropriate sense) can use it to Deflect. No, Missile Deflection should be a seperate power, bought with OAF Lightsaber. They lose the lightsaber, they lose the power. Might be able to do what Vader did and buy "Missile Deflection, OAF Armor Glove." But he has points coming out his metal arse, so he doesn't count.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Damage for lightsabers

 

I wouldn't necessarily make Missile Deflection an inherent part of the weapon. Any schmuck can pick up a lightsaber and learn to use it' date=' but only a Jedi (someone with, say, Spatial Awareness or whatever appropriate sense) can use it to Deflect. No, Missile Deflection should be a seperate power, bought with OAF Lightsaber. They lose the lightsaber, they lose the power. Might be able to do what Vader did and buy "Missile Deflection, OAF Armor Glove." But he has points coming out his metal arse, so he doesn't count.[/quote']

 

That's OIF Armor Glove. And technically, he didn't need the glove; later on in the Expanded Universe, while crossing a battlefield, Luke gets caught out in the open by an AT-AT, whose main blaster bolts he, too, deflects with his hand.

 

On my first writeup, I had Missile Deflection on the 'saber itself, but later on, I did indeed make it a separate power -- OAF Lightsaber to start with, of course, but you could certainly buy that off...

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Damage for lightsabers

 

Next Up: Missile Deflection.

 

So the advice for the Form III (Defender) Missile Deflection is thus:

 

Unbreakable Defense: Missile Deflection (Any Ranged Attack), Uncontrolled (Takes Damage, Lightsaber Turned Off, Must Be Restarted Every Turn) (+1/2), Adjacent Hex (+1/2) (40 Active Points); OAF Lightsaber Durable (-1): Real Cost 20.

 

It's been suggested that the Uncontrolled is a little twitchy, and that maybe I should use Trigger instead. Now, Trigger has:

 

Trigger, Simple: +1/4 Base

Trigger, Variable: +1/4 Additional

Trigger, 0-Phase: +1/4 Additional

Trigger, Automatic Reset: +1/2 Additional, Must Have 0-Phase.

 

I'm not exactly certain how to build this using Trigger, though. Should I have it thus:

 

Uncontrolled (Takes Damage, Lightsaber Turned Off; +1/2), Trigger (Lightsaber Turned On or New Turn, 0 Phase; +1/2)

 

Or perhaps thus:

 

Uncontrolled (Takes Damage, Lightsaber Turned Off; +1/2), Trigger (Lightsaber Turned On or New Turn, 0 Phase, Automatic Reset; +1)

 

Or just:

 

Trigger (Ranged Attack in Deflection Area, 0 Phase, Automatic Reset; +1)

 

Thoughts? Suggestions? Smacks on the head??

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Damage for lightsabers

 

Next Up: Missile Deflection.

 

So the advice for the Form III (Defender) Missile Deflection is thus:

 

Unbreakable Defense: Missile Deflection (Any Ranged Attack), Uncontrolled (Takes Damage, Lightsaber Turned Off, Must Be Restarted Every Turn) (+1/2), Adjacent Hex (+1/2) (40 Active Points); OAF Lightsaber Durable (-1): Real Cost 20.

 

It's been suggested that the Uncontrolled is a little twitchy, and that maybe I should use Trigger instead. Now, Trigger has:

 

How is Uncontrolled "twitchy"? Its allowed as per the 5th edition (sorry, don't have Revised) its just suggested GM's keep a close eye on Uncontrolled Missile Deflection. I think Uncontrolled Missile Deflection helps simulate the ease by which some Jedi deflect blaster bolts while holding a serious conversation as per The Phantom Menace (Qui Gon and Obi Wan vs the Battledroids) and Attack of the Clones (Obi Wan and Mace Windu in the Arena fight)

 

Lightsaber based Uncontrolled Deflection is pretty easy to shut down:

 

1: K.O. the Jedi

2: Stun the Jedi, its not a Persistant power

3: The Jedi "misses" a Missile Deflection roll, and is thus unable to further Deflect until next phase (in which case he must "activate" the Deflection power again)

4: Disarm the Jedi. Most Jedi can't Deflect without their Saber (those who can, buy off the OAF limitation)

 

I'm not exactly certain how to build this using Trigger, though. Should I have it thus:

 

Uncontrolled (Takes Damage, Lightsaber Turned Off; +1/2), Trigger (Lightsaber Turned On or New Turn, 0 Phase; +1/2)

 

Or perhaps thus:

 

Uncontrolled (Takes Damage, Lightsaber Turned Off; +1/2), Trigger (Lightsaber Turned On or New Turn, 0 Phase, Automatic Reset; +1)

 

Or just:

 

Trigger (Ranged Attack in Deflection Area, 0 Phase, Automatic Reset; +1)

 

Thoughts? Suggestions? Smacks on the head??

 

I would avoid using Trigger. Why? Because each time the power is "Triggered" it is a new use of the power. The Jedi will never accrue penalties for multiple deflections/reflection within a single phase. Even Jedi aren't that good! (unless of course, you fudge it. I'm a big supporter of fudging if it feels right)

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Damage for lightsabers

 

Actually, I'd say that Uncontrolled was Obi Wan & Qui Gon; I'd use the Geonosis arena battle/conversation between Obi-Wan and Mace as an argument for Trigger. While the Jedi is training hard and advancing, he's building up to Uncontrolled (+1/2), then eventually to Trigger (0 Phase, Auto-Reset, +1). In character development I'd require the purchase of skill levels to represent the development of the Uncontrolled reaction, until the total skill levels made up the points necessary for Trigger, then 'convert' them over to the Trigger.

 

I am told, however, that Uncontrolled just builds and builds every single shot, even if the PC's phase goes by. Which would suck; if you're being shot at at all, in a nice goon situation, then by the second or third phase your CV is in the drekker and you're going to get shot. Or else you're going to spend all your time resetting your MD, which is what we're wanting to avoid anyhow.

[pawsplay]

Re: Damage for lightsabers

 

I'm thinking that a lightsaber ought to have a RSR component to represent the 'in the hands of a master' aspect that keeps them from being quite as nasty in the hands of 'just' martial arts masters.

 

Also, the STR min may be a bit high. It's a freaking glorified flashlight.

 

Which means it weighs the same as a longsword, but all the mass is in an object the size of a Maglight. That's unwieldly enough. When you take into account the fact you have to protect yourself from your own blade while fighting a determined opponent, that's another issue. Finally, per virtually all the novels, they kick like mustangs and can even generate gyroscopic resistance when moved too quickly.

[JmOz]

Re: Damage for lightsabers

 

I have read a good number of the books and don't remember the kick like a mule aspect, for that matter I can remember the exact opposite being said (that they had almost 0 mass and were dangerous because of the lack of resistance)

[pawsplay]

Re: Damage for lightsabers

 

The blade is weightless, whereas the hilt is a heck of a counterweight. So that is dangerous. But the weapon itself is very energetic.

 

It was a blade of pure energy emitted from a hilt most often crafted by the wielder to match their own needs, preferences, and style. Because of the unique balance of the saber, with all its weight in the hilt, and a strong gyroscopic effect it was very difficult for the untrained to wield.

[Clonus]

Re: Damage for lightsabers

 

Light Sabers shouldn't have a STR min. They should have an EGO min.

[Rick]

Re: Damage for lightsabers

 

I treat Deflection in to ways. The common way as a Special effect of DCV. So when someone sends a blaster bolt at you and misses you could have Deflected it. If you want to actively Deflect or Reflect the rules act normally, it is abortable and you can deflect multiple times blah blah blah. You buy the skill in my game that gives you access to the power (as per my Star Wars rules for force powers).

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Damage for lightsabers

 

Light Sabers shouldn't have a STR min. They should have an EGO min.

 

 

So you would have the Lightsabre do more damage if the Jedi's EGO is higher than the EGO Min?

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Damage for lightsabers

 

... I cannot for the life of me figure where they're coming from with the gyroscopic effect. Unless that's being pulled directly from the books -- and I'd want a book, chapter, and verse -- instead of a 'pedia, I'd stick with the difficulty in wielding it laying with the fact that you're wielding a flashlight -- and it's hard to gauge where the end is, as compared to most weapons, where you get a feel for where it ends by the mass and the effects thereby.

 

... they do realize that in order to have a gyroscopic effect, you need a spinning mass, right ... ?

[Opal]

Re: Damage for lightsabers

 

For the original 'laser sword' - assuming it really is just an attenuated laser beam - the same 2d6 RKA as the laser pistols should be just fine, just with 'no range' tacked on. (Not HKA, 'hitting' someone with a laser sword would just be sweeping the beam through them, it'd trace a burn across the target, not clunk into it unless you pushed harder.) Of course, that begs the question 'why have a laser sword in the first place, when lasers normally have a pretty good range?'

 

Maybe it could be an energy requirement thing. How and why do you attenuate a laser beam, anyway. Maybe there's a funky technology that causes the beam to occilate between the hilt and the point in space where it end? In defiance of thermodynamics, that saves a lot of power, and a laser sword can opperate for hours or go years of modest combat use between re-charging, while the pistols have charges. It's a possibility.

 

 

For the lightsaber, I think there's a lot of over-thinking and overbuying going on. Any melee weapon might damage another melee weapon. Hero chooses not to model that unless you actually intentionally try to damage the other guy's focus. Add a rule to let weapons be damaged on a block attempt, or don't worry about it. Block can model things other than intercepting a blow with your arm, shield or weapon, anyway. When 'blocking' a lightsaber w/o another lightsaber, F/X would just dictate that you actually duck.

 

Jehdi make thier own light sabers. If one is lost or destroyed, they can make a new one. Doesn't sound independent to me. Sounds a lot like a regular paid-for-with-character-points focus.

 

Is AVLD: Force Field, in a game where a common defense is an independent, relatively readily availabe, really worth bothering with. Won't a KA do the same thing?

 

Cutting through droids and severing limbs takes a lot of damage. Armor, if armor is not that high in the campaign, is not going to make the huge difference that'd justify something as expensive and out there as AVLD does body. OTOH, a hefty HKA, a little STR, a little force-boosted STR, and more than a little martial arts and damage classes.... that thing'll be cutting through just about anything on BOD damage, alone. For that matter, blasters in the films rarely seem hampered by armor, and rarely fail to kill unless specificaly set for stun. they'd be pretty high-damage, too, even though they don't seem to damge inanimate objects all that much.

 

Also, characters get killed by lightsabers, they get chopped to pieces by lightsabers, but they don't get KO'd by lightsabers, at least - I don't recall that in the films. Stun multiple of 1 wouldn't hurt(npi), and it'd make them more nearly balanced at the death-dealing levels of damage they display.

[Rick]

Re: Damage for lightsabers

 

 

Is AVLD: Force Field, in a game where a common defense is an independent, relatively readily availabe, really worth bothering with. Won't a KA do the same thing?

 

Cutting through droids and severing limbs takes a lot of damage. Armor, if armor is not that high in the campaign, is not going to make the huge difference that'd justify something as expensive and out there as AVLD does body. OTOH, a hefty HKA, a little STR, a little force-boosted STR, and more than a little martial arts and damage classes.... that thing'll be cutting through just about anything on BOD damage, alone. For that matter, blasters in the films rarely seem hampered by armor, and rarely fail to kill unless specificaly set for stun. they'd be pretty high-damage, too, even though they don't seem to damge inanimate objects all that much.

 

 

Of course there is an arguement to made that if you have a high enough KA that AVLD is over kill. In my game though a Lightsaber does 1 1/2d6 base. SO the AVLD serves to aguement that. Keeps the dice down to reasonable amounts. THe AVLD isn't applied to FF's though, against energy shielding the weapon doesn't work at all. IT applies to Combat Luck, which I use regularly in my games for none armored heroes and important villians.

 

It is about taste and point of view, with my players in my game Lightsaber per my write up work and act just like you see in the films. In terms of points I run starwars using Hero rules so players don't buy lighsabers. They build them in game, or if they start as Knights they already have them.

[Rick]

Re: Damage for lightsabers

 

So you would have the Lightsabre do more damage if the Jedi's EGO is higher than the EGO Min?

 

I don't get the ego min either. Ego works great for force powers but I always considered a Jedi/Sith's skill comes from superior Dex and the SFX of having Force powers and slight precog that accounts for superior Dex.

[Opal]

Re: Damage for lightsabers

 

Of course there is an arguement to made that if you have a high enough KA that AVLD is over kill. In my game though a Lightsaber does 1 1/2d6 base. SO the AVLD serves to aguement that.

So a lightsaber cuts through an armored or unarmored person about like a sword cuts through an unarmored person? Meaning a lot of the 'saber dismemberment action in the movies owes more to the skill of the wielder than the weapons.

 

THe AVLD applies to Combat Luck, which I use regularly in my games for none armored heroes and important villians.

Actually, that aspect of it I liked. 'Combat Luck' in Star Wars is particularly apropriate as the Force is already there as a rationale for the 'luck.'

[Rick]

Re: Damage for lightsabers

 

So a lightsaber cuts through an armored or unarmored person about like a sword cuts through an unarmored person? Meaning a lot of the 'saber dismemberment action in the movies owes more to the skill of the wielder than the weapons.

 

I'm not really sure what you mean here. The Weapon ignores the Storm Troopers 5 points of rDEF (this is where I've set it in my campaign). Against a 2d6K strike (after Martial Arts lets say, I don't add strength to the weapon) 5 points of defense will make it difficult to lop of arms with an average of 7 body meaning a total of 1 body after armor and location modifiers, and what or 2-9 stun. By adding AVLD I'm still not going to lop the arm off, but I am going to do 4 body and 7-14 stun (I can't remember arm stunx, and my write up does -1 stunx). THat is a substancial differnce in the course of combat. Not to meant the higher damage range for 2d6K. My Jedi do run into a lot of armored characters and battle droids.

 

Actually, that aspect of it I liked. 'Combat Luck' in Star Wars is particularly apropriate as the Force is already there as a rationale for the 'luck.'

 

Yeah this is how we keep PCs alive with out having to wear armor and it makes Lightsaber duels far more ciunematic.

[Opal]

Re: Damage for lightsabers

 

I'm not really sure what you mean here.

You gave light sabers about the same damage a normal sword, but made them AVLD. Swords cut and chop normal people quite effectively (no resistant defense), but they don't glide through them like a hot knife through butter. So, I assumed what you were modeling was the Jehdi using Martial Arts: thier MA DCs would then boost the damage to the point that they /would/ do that.

[Rick]

Re: Damage for lightsabers

 

You gave light sabers about the same damage a normal sword' date=' but made them AVLD. Swords cut and chop normal people quite effectively (no resistant defense), but they don't glide through them like a hot knife through butter. So, I assumed what you were modeling was the Jehdi using Martial Arts: thier MA DCs would then boost the damage to the point that they /would/ do that.[/quote']

 

Oh yes!!! Absolutely. I allow Martial arts to effect DCs and I later on allow Lethal Strike to be applied.

 

In terms of the Lightsaber like a hot knife through butter issue. I have to standards that I go through in my head for its effect on objects and people. Against inanimate object (but not droids) the weapon does 6 body every phase. Now against people and droids, if the wepon does more than half someones Body in a single strike (before location for NPC, after location for PCs and Big NPCs) there is a chance for dismemberment. I make a con check (minus however much over half their body the damage is) if they make it, no dismemberment if they miss, dismemberment.

[Opal]

Re: Damage for lightsabers

 

I haven't used Impairment much but isn't that a similar threshold? So, it's really an F/X thing: A mace impairs your arm, your arm is broken. A rapier impairs your arm, you have a severed tendon. A lightsaber impairs your arm, your arm is no the floor.

 

Given the aparent ease of replacing limbs (with prostetics that seem to work /exactly/ like the original) in the setting, I guess that's not entirely unreasonable.