Heroes

[Susano]

Okay, I know there's another thread for Heroes around here somewhere, but I can't find it. I've been watching my Season 1 DVD, am up to Epsiode 20 Fire Years Gone, and all I can say is "HOLY CRAP!" this is awesome!!!

 

*cough*

 

Sorry about that.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Heroes

 

Huh. That kinda surprises me, since you started this thread yourself.

 

I recommend this one for thorough episode-by-episode discussion.

[Susano]

Re: Heroes

 

Huh. That kinda surprises me' date=' since you started this thread yourself.

 

I recommend this one for thorough episode-by-episode discussion.

 

My initial run got me as far as 5.

[Balabanto]

Re: Heroes

 

That's kind of interesting. I HATE this show. I watch it so that when I run Champions, "When you run your game, don't do this.":

 

Do NOT: Base half of your stories around time travel so that the plot makes no sense to anyone except characters with unique special senses.

 

Do NOT: Create a guy who paints the future, yet is so incomprehensibly dumb that he can't, once he masters his power, paint the exact sequence of events that lead to his own death by filling in blanks in between paintings, and set a trap.

 

Do NOT: Make your villain so disgusting that even the most hardened code vs. killing heroes will ask your GM for an EGO roll.

 

Do NOT: Spend the entire season building up to a climax that doesn't actually leave you with a cliffhanger, but instead, makes you say "What in the name of Monkeys Swinging on a Star with a Crucifix shoved up their behind just happened here, and why did I watch this just so I could feel that nothing was actually solved?"

 

I didn't even feel that Sylar got BEATEN. Instead, he just got deferred like a bad tax return.

 

And he was so loathesome that even I, the king of love of the Silver Age and the classics, said "Won't SOMEONE PLEASE KILL THIS MAN?"

 

Do NOT: Make the only sympathetic character in the entire show have a power so disgusting that you want to turn away from her every time she's on screen. (Unkillable Lass)

 

Do NOT: Make your other main villain a megacorporation with the power to erase minds, and does so with a frequency that not only can we have no idea what's going on, but eventually, the characters won't be able to explain it to viewers either.

 

Do NOT: Give someone a power so incomprehensible that it defies explanation even to the hardened comic book fan. It's been an entire season, and we still don't REALLY know if it's MPD, Psychic Absorption, or My other Mind Lives in a Mirror. (Nikki)

 

Do NOT: Make your main character so insecure that his insecurity leads to complete and total stupidity. (Peter Petrelli.) If I know that I'm going to explode if I stay in New York, I MOVE TO THE LOS ALAMOS NUCLEAR TESTING SITE AND BURY MYSELF IN THE SAND UP TO MY NECK!

 

If I had to deal with these characters, I'd be saying MAKE A DEDUCTION ROLL every five seconds. Watching Heroes was depressing, unfulfilling, and Un-Heroic.

 

I am truly dreading Season Two. I wonder what else they can do to ruin the concept of superheroes for people.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Heroes

 

Yep, looks like we have the polarities pretty well represented here.

 

BTW Balabanto, since Susano is still in the process of watching the series, it might be good form to put some of your posted info in spoiler tags.

[Balabanto]

Re: Heroes

 

Oh, sorry about that. But seriously, I felt so cheated by this show that if I had a character with powers who lived in this world, I'd throw myself off a cliff and die.

 

This world is so depressing, without any hope at all. Superheroes are supposed to be role models, exemplars of how to behave, not murderous filth who slaughter each other, pump bullets into bad guys and abuse their gifts for selfish reasons.

 

The series makes a huge show of talking about evolution. If they had called the show "Predators" it would be a lot more accurate. Because those, for the most part, are the characters they've created.

 

They knuckle under to people who are obviously evil. They have an enemy whose main power is BRAIN CONSUMPTION. There were times I had to walk away from the screen and keep from biting my fingers off.

 

If I wanted to read Wild Cards again, assuming I could stand to do it without ripping out my own intestines, I'd just read that. It's better written and less incoherent.

[Clonus]

Re: Heroes

 

 

Do NOT: Create a guy who paints the future, yet is so incomprehensibly dumb that he can't, once he masters his power, paint the exact sequence of events that lead to his own death by filling in blanks in between paintings, and set a trap.

 

 

Do NOT: Give someone a power so incomprehensible that it defies explanation even to the hardened comic book fan. It's been an entire season, and we still don't REALLY know if it's MPD, Psychic Absorption, or My other Mind Lives in a Mirror. (Nikki)

.

 

It wasn't in the least incomprehensible. Nikki's power, her only power as should have been obvious from that start is super-strength. Crazy is not a power. And I think having precognition only show the character what the GM wants him to know is the right way to handle it.

[Susano]

Re: Heroes

 

I am truly dreading Season Two. I wonder what else they can do to ruin the concept of superheroes for people.

 

So... someone held a gun to your head and forced you to watch the entire series?

 

If you hate it some much, why'd you watch it? And why are you watching the next season?

 

Personally, I don't look at it as a superhero show -- I look at it as a show about people inexplicable powers and how they try to deal with them. I also think if they started putting costumes on, it would ruin it (and it would turn off the general public). This isn't one of your Silver Age games, Balabanto, this is obviously someone going for a far more... "Iron Age" feel.

 

Yes, some times these guys act more than a little clueless, but then, they do so no more than number of other characters in other shows. About the only people who seem to be totally on top of things in any show are detectives and investigators, everyone else acts like they're written by ERB. I also think, as out-side observers, who think "game" more than "life" it's easy to make some of these decisions, but we aren't living the life these people are, are we?

 

Anyway, as the saying goes, YMMV.

[ParagonAlpha]

Re: Heroes

 

Ditto what Susano said.

 

All Ur Heroz are belong to me.

[MisterBaldy]

Re: Heroes

 

I watched the pilot episode of HEROES... and that was it.

 

I know I'm in the vast minority... but I just didn't like the pilot, so I didn't continue to watch.

[transmetahuman]

Re: Heroes

 

I'm a total sucker for "people with powers" stories. I think the writers made a lot of mistakes, some of them really bad. I agree with several of Balabanto's points. I really wish the guy who'd been lucky enough to be the one in charge of this concept was at least someone who'd glanced at comic books before, if only to avoid storylines and problem areas (e.g. defining the limitations of time travel & prophecy, instead of changing them every time the plot needs it, or the rehashes of

Days of Future Past & Watchmen)

that we comics readers & sci-fi fans have seen umpteen times. Why couldn't one of our own have gotten the show about superpowers named "Heroes", dangit!?

 

But the 4400 (for instance) is worse on almost all counts, I can't even watch that anymore. Heroes has some really great moments, and characters that I enjoy watching. It's definitely not a superheroes show; maybe more an exploration of the different paths people take when confronted with the opportunity for heroism - and I'm fine with that. I'm hoping the writers will learn from some of their mistakes, and I'll definitely be watching it.

[Susano]

Re: Heroes

 

I don't think it is a superhero show, and it is not a comic book show. It is very much a "Dark Champions" show, about people with strange and unusual powers and how they handle dealing with it (not to mention shadowy conspiracies, organized crime, and serial killers). I realize there are (probably) problems with the story, but I'm not the kind of person who readily spots the holes, I tend to get caught up in what I'm watching and say "that was cool!"

 

I'm not expecting any sort of comic book wrap up for the end -- I know the inital season is meant to stand alone, but I also know things were left open enough for a second season. And hey, for all its faults, at least it's not Lost!

[Susano]

Re: Heroes

 

On Issac's power: Yes, he has precog, but he also has the perfect example of Limted Concious Control (-1). He can start drawing/painting the future at anytime, but he has little to no control over what he's going to get. Initially, he got high, and started working, and ended up with who knew what. Now, he can try and paint a specific target, but he still doesn't get exactly what he needs (witness his attempts to find Peter). In fact, there's a comment made that his painting form a comic book page -- but the panels have been painted out of order, so you need to try and put them together correctly. An amazing and useful talent, but not totally reliable.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Heroes

 

That's kind of interesting. I HATE this show. I watch it so that when I run Champions' date=' "When you run your game, don't do this.":[/quote']

 

As many have pointed out, this was not, and was not intended to be, a translation of comic book superheroes to television. Consider the historical success of such translations, and even the successful ones have made marked changes from the comics. Superman in the '50's battles gangsters and thugs, and cringes when they throw guns at him. Batman in the '60's becomes CampMan. Wonder Woman in the '70s was fairly close, but we still lost SuperEnemies. Hulk became the Bruce (oh, excuse me, DAVID) Banner show. Flash lost most of his powers, though an effort was made to bring in his Rogues' Gallery. One season. Smallville had to add Lex Luthor to the mix, make Kryptonite a mutagen and impregnate Lana Lang, among numerous other changes.

 

If every comic book reader in North America tuned in to Heroes every week, but no one else did, how quickly would it be cancelled?

 

Do NOT: Base half of your stories around time travel so that the plot makes no sense to anyone except characters with unique special senses.

 

This is a difference in the medium. In your game, the plot needs to make sense to the players. In a TV show, it needs to make sense to the viewers - and they have the "special senses" needed to follow the time travel. Peter Petrelli doesn't need to know the back story to play his part. For that matter, comic book Supers can walk away scratching their heads as to what was really going on, so long as the reader is filled in.

 

The much closer Character to Viewer/Reader/Player link makes this unworkable in games. PC's can be kept in the dark the same way, but it's unsatisfying to the players.

 

Do NOT: Create a guy who paints the future' date=' yet is so incomprehensibly dumb that he can't, once he masters his power, paint the exact sequence of events that lead to his own death by filling in blanks in between paintings, and set a trap. [/quote']

 

I think the character has the powers the character has. Precognition that is highly limited. I would counter this criticism with "Don't let the characters' limitations and flaws fade into the background when it would be convenient for them to be ignored."

 

Do NOT: Make your villain so disgusting that even the most hardened code vs. killing heroes will ask your GM for an EGO roll.

 

Counterpoint: Unless your objective is to create a villain who will truly be hated. The same criticism has been levied against Batman's failure to end the Joker's murders once and for all, hasn't it?

 

Do NOT: Spend the entire season building up to a climax that doesn't actually leave you with a cliffhanger' date=' but instead, makes you say "What in the name of Monkeys Swinging on a Star with a Crucifix shoved up their behind just happened here, and why did I watch this just so I could feel that nothing was actually solved?" [/quote']

 

I'm on about Episode 18, so I don't yet know how it all works out. However, wrapping everything up in a neat bow with full explanations isn't the only approach in fiction. And it doesn't leave a lot of room for sequels.

 

I didn't even feel that Sylar got BEATEN. Instead' date=' he just got deferred like a bad tax return. [/quote']

 

Returning to the Joker, his very first appearance was written with him dying in the end. The editor changed it because he felt the character had potential as a recurring villain. Given the nature of Sylar's powers, a "true defeat" probably requires his death to be realistic.

 

Do NOT: Make the only sympathetic character in the entire show have a power so disgusting that you want to turn away from her every time she's on screen. (Unkillable Lass)

 

Funny...I would have thought Hiro would be sympathetic. He has, by far, the most silver age mentality of all the characters (although it's constantly running up against the reality that he's not in a silver age world). He's even managed to infect his friend Ando with enough of his own enthusiasm that he risks his own life to move Hiro's 'destiny' forward.

 

Do NOT: Make your other main villain a megacorporation with the power to erase minds' date=' and does so with a frequency that not only can we have no idea what's going on, but eventually, the characters won't be able to explain it to viewers either. [/quote']

 

In all honesty, having watched 18 episodes to date, videotaped off the TV on the schedule they aired (so without going back to refresh, or watching them all in a marathon so the memories are fresh), I don't find the plotline all that difficult to follow. Certainly no more difficult than those serial-type shows that have preceded it (eg. 4400, Babylon 5).

 

Do NOT: Give someone a power so incomprehensible that it defies explanation even to the hardened comic book fan. It's been an entire season' date=' and we still don't REALLY know if it's MPD, Psychic Absorption, or My other Mind Lives in a Mirror. (Nikki) [/quote']

 

CONTRAST: Do NOT: Strip away all the mystery by giving the characters, the players or the viewers all the behind the scenes details. Let them come out naturally by way of the plot. That said, I'd say it's pretty clear Nikki has serious mental issues and a superpower, neither of which has anything to do with the other.

 

Do NOT: Make your main character so insecure that his insecurity leads to complete and total stupidity. (Peter Petrelli.) If I know that I'm going to explode if I stay in New York' date=' I MOVE TO THE LOS ALAMOS NUCLEAR TESTING SITE AND BURY MYSELF IN THE SAND UP TO MY NECK! [/quote']

 

Does he KNOW this will happen, or BELIEVE this will happen? People diagnosed with terminal illnesses nonetheless continue to fight and believe a miracle is possible. My counter: Do NOT have your characters behave like chess pieces, objectively seeking the best tactical response to any given situation. Have them behave like real people (even the ones that really aren't people), who interpret things subjectively. You wanted this to be more 'silver age', didn't you? Did those silver age heroes simply give up and crawl off to die when faced with adversity, or did they keep struggling, believing against all odds that there was a way to succeed, and that they would find it?

 

If I had to deal with these characters' date=' I'd be saying MAKE A DEDUCTION ROLL every five seconds. [/quote']

 

These characters would not fit in your world structure any more than Hiro's silver age ideals fit well in the reality of the Heroes world.

 

Watching Heroes was depressing, unfulfilling, and Un-Heroic.

 

I am truly dreading Season Two. I wonder what else they can do to ruin the concept of superheroes for people.

 

Yet, as others have noted, you watched the entirety of the first season and, from your dread, plan to watch the second season as well. If you truly dislike it that much, why do you keep watching? I would note for your benefit that:

 

- Televisions come equipped with a device allowing you to change the channel and watch a different program.

 

- Televisions come equipped with a device allowing you to shut the device off and watch no program.

 

- Televisions require electricity to function, and can be switched off by unplugging them, if you cannot find the controls for the above two functions.

 

- Televisions are immobile, and thus cannot follow you should you choose to leave the room, a final solution where the above are impractical because someone else wishes to watch the offensive program.

 

In other words, who is forcing you to watch the show? Perhaps MisterBaldy would be kind enough to provide you with some pointers.

 

I watched the pilot episode of HEROES... and that was it.

 

I know I'm in the vast minority... but I just didn't like the pilot, so I didn't continue to watch.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Heroes

 

I MOVE TO THE LOS ALAMOS NUCLEAR TESTING SITE AND BURY MYSELF IN THE SAND UP TO MY NECK!

Trivial nitpick, just because you happened to hit a pet peeve re my hometown: Nuclear weapons have never been tested at Los Alamos; we designed and built them, then sent them elsewhere* to get blowed up.

 

Thank you. We now return you to your regularly scheduled rant.

 

 

* Trinity Site, Nevada Test Site, various Pacific atols, etc.

[Clonus]

Re: Heroes

 

(e.g. defining the limitations of time travel & prophecy' date=' instead of changing them every time the plot needs it,[/quote']

 

Not revealing them fully until the end is not the same thing as changing them.

[transmetahuman]

Re: Heroes

 

Not revealing them fully until the end is not the same thing as changing them.

I don't have enough faith in the writers to believe that they can come up with a structure that will explain

1) Young Hiro's inability to prevent the waitress's death (the webcomic strongly implies that Sylar got her' date=' not a brain tumor or whatever it was), 2) Future Hiro's ability to change his past by warning Peter in the subway, 3) The fact that after that encounter, Future Hiro returned to a changed timeline, where Peter blew up instead of Sylar, and Sylar killed and replaced Nathan, but apparently nothing else changed - from Nathan's/Sylar's identical "Days of Future Past" actions, to the same clippings on strings in the same location, 4) Young Hiro's ability to nonetheless change what is now his past by skewering Sylar (or did that change anything) - or at least [i']something[/i] must have happened because now Nathan saved Peter, and 5) the apparent inevitability of Isaac's visions (granted, a different power, so different rules - but you'd think time travel would muck it up a bit).

 

 

Basically, sometimes things are changed because of foreknowledge, other things are unalterable, still others are self-fulfilling prophecies. People whose memories should be altered by having their past change are immune because of PC status (where is Future Hiro going to be, when Young Hiro reaches that point in normal time? Fifty bucks says they don't address it)... It's the most comic-booky aspect of the show. Anyone who's followed my posts know I hate time travel and precog in games, and I've got good game reasons for it - but I also hate that stuff, and anything that smacks of a plot being "fated", in stories. I think it's hackneyed, unsatisfying, and it actually undermines any heroism or *any* of the choices being made. I'd much rather all the unlikely coincidences were just coincidences, than some stupid fate thing going on.

[Balabanto]

Re: Heroes

 

While the Joker is pretty nasty, this guy combines Serial Killer with Cannnibalism without the Hannibal Lecter veneer. It's not characterization, it's not shock value, it's just gore for the sake of gore.

 

Plus, Sylar is actually motivated by realistic concerns. Hey, I get more powers from eating brains. Perhaps I should eat some more.

 

In other words, he's NOT crazy, he IS responsible for his actions.

 

So should I hit the off switch? Absolutely. The problem is that the writers can't control their desire to write the stupidest things possible.

[MisterBaldy]

Re: Heroes

 

I am truly dreading Season Two. I wonder what else they can do to ruin the concept of superheroes for people.

So... someone held a gun to your head and forced you to watch the entire series?

 

If you hate it some much, why'd you watch it? And why are you watching the next season?

 

Personally, I don't look at it as a superhero show -- I look at it as a show about people inexplicable powers and how they try to deal with them. I also think if they started putting costumes on, it would ruin it (and it would turn off the general public). This isn't one of your Silver Age games, Balabanto, this is obviously someone going for a far more... "Iron Age" feel.

 

Yes, some times these guys act more than a little clueless, but then, they do so no more than number of other characters in other shows. About the only people who seem to be totally on top of things in any show are detectives and investigators, everyone else acts like they're written by ERB. I also think, as out-side observers, who think "game" more than "life" it's easy to make some of these decisions, but we aren't living the life these people are, are we?

 

Anyway, as the saying goes, YMMV.

I'd say I'd have to agree with Susano here.

 

It's not like you were Alex de Large (A Clockwork Orange), and you were held against your will and forced to watch the show as some form of conditioning/reprogramming.

 

You had the ability to say, "I'm not interested... so I won't watch", just as I did. I'm glad that so many people enjoy the show. It's just not a show that I personally enjoy.

 

Now, The Closer (starring Kyra Sedgwick)... that's a different story. I've watched that show since the very first episode, and that is probably my favorite show on TV right now (aside from perhaps watching the Boston Red Sox or the New England Patriots broadcasts, that is).

[Susano]

Re: Heroes

 

watching the Boston Red Sox

 

As an Orioles fan, I so hope the Red Sox stay in first and keep the Yankess from making the playoffs.

[MisterBaldy]

Re: Heroes

 

As an Orioles fan' date=' I so hope the Red Sox stay in first and keep the Yankess from making the playoffs.[/quote']As a Red Sox fan, I cheer for two teams...

• The Boston Red Sox
  
• Any team playing against the New York Yankees

 

I miss Kevin Millar!!!

 

[StGrimblefig]

Re: Heroes

 

This world is so depressing' date=' without any hope at all. Superheroes are supposed to be role models, exemplars of how to behave, not murderous filth who slaughter each other, pump bullets into bad guys and abuse their gifts for selfish reasons. [/quote']

You never read "The Punisher" did you? Or a lot of what was published by the indie labels in the early 90's.

 

The comics, and the heroes they present, tend to reflect the times in which they are created.

[Balabanto]

Re: Heroes

 

See, that's your mistake. You consider the Punisher a superhero. Even Marvel Comics acknowledges that the Punisher is not a superhero.

 

I watch Heroes so that I can say "God, I had better not do that." But an hour of cautionary tale each week IS painful to watch.

[Clonus]

Re: Heroes

 

I don't have enough faith in the writers to believe that they can come up with a structure that will explain

1) Young Hiro's inability to prevent the waitress's death (the webcomic strongly implies that Sylar got her' date=' not a brain tumor or whatever it was), 2) Future Hiro's ability to change his past by warning Peter in the subway, 3) The fact that after that encounter, Future Hiro returned to a changed timeline, where Peter blew up instead of Sylar, and Sylar killed and replaced Nathan, but apparently nothing else changed - from Nathan's/Sylar's identical "Days of Future Past" actions, to the same clippings on strings in the same location, 4) Young Hiro's ability to nonetheless change what is now his past by skewering Sylar (or did that change anything) - or at least [i']something[/i] must have happened because now Nathan saved Peter, and 5) the apparent inevitability of Isaac's visions (granted, a different power, so different rules - but you'd think time travel would muck it up a bit).

 

 

 

They are going with an elastic time model where time can be changed, but it "resists" being changed and "tries" to return to the previous flow of events. Only at certain critical junctures can you intervene and make more than a transient and minor change to history. And without a lot of experimentation, there's no way to know where these critical junctures actually are.

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Heroes

 

While the Joker is pretty nasty, this guy combines Serial Killer with Cannnibalism without the Hannibal Lecter veneer. It's not characterization, it's not shock value, it's just gore for the sake of gore.

 

Plus, Sylar is actually motivated by realistic concerns. Hey, I get more powers from eating brains. Perhaps I should eat some more.

 

At its core, Sylar kills because it makes him powerful. Many real world violent criminal acts are motivated by the feeling of power it gives them. War crimes are committed by people wanting to remain in a position of power.

 

Sylar simply has a more direct connection between killing and achieving personal power than most. He is the an individual with no remorse or empathy for others, willing to kill, possessing the power to do so, and gaining benefits from doing so. The only difference between him and a lot of real world figures is the addition of a superpower, in his case one which furthers his ability to benefit from killing. Like the rest of the cast, he is a "real world" personality who has achieved a superpower, and who uses that superpower in the manner dictated by his personality.

 

In other words' date=' he's NOT crazy, he IS responsible for his actions. [/quote']

 

Does a sane person remove people's heads and consume their brains with no remorse or second thoughts? Maybe, maybe not. I would suggest he is criminally culpable. Is it appropriate to kill him? Good question. Many real world criminals can and have killed without remorse. Whether they deserve to die depends on your views on capital punishment, a discussion which belongs on NGD, not here. I expect that, given a helpless Sylar and the choice of killing him or turning him over to the authorities, a debate between the various Heroes characters would include a wide spectrum of opinion in that regard. Just as a group of a dozen or so individuals selected at random in the real world would have differing opinions on a similar question.

 

So should I hit the off switch? Absolutely. The problem is that the writers can't control their desire to write the stupidest things possible.

 

Perhaps the problem is that you can't control their desire to watch a show you consider to be based on the stupidest things possible. This "it's a reminder of what I shouldn't do" argument sounds a lot like rationalization to me. Do you watch videos of car crashes on a weekly basis to remind yourself to drive safely when you get behind the wheel, or keep pictures of diseased lungs for weekly review to remind yourself not to smoke?