What rule don't people know?

[ghost-angel]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

In 5E if you have a Held Action and get Stunned you lose that Held Action and have to wait for your next Phase to Recover from being Stunned.

 

As an example:

 

2 Characters, one with Dex 23 SPD 4 holds his action on 12, waiting to see what the bad guys do. Bad guy hits him hard enough to Stun him. He loses his action from 12 and has to wait until 3 to recover from being Stunned, and until 6 to act. But his buddy with the 18 Dex goes after the bad guys. He also gets hit hard enough to be Stunned. He recovers from being Stunned on his Phase in 12, and gets to act on 3.

 

I honestly don't care about Holding Actions - it is outside the realm of my base argument regarding the sheer stupidity of how the rules worked under 4E and why 5E is better.

 

If you Hold an Action you risk losing that Action - if by no other factors than Holding it too long (assuming the GM allows for you to Hold without declaring a Hold Condition).

[archermoo]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

Fourth Edition:

Stunned - Lose a Phase.

Knocked Out - Lose a possible many Phases, but you can only start to recover on a Phase after the Phase you were Kocked Out in, regardless if you've taken an action that Phase yet or not.

Stunned & Knocked Out - Must recover from being Stunned, if you have acted in the Phase you were S/K.O. you have to wait until your next Phase to recover from being Stunned, then you recover from being Knocked out in subsequent Phases. If you have NOT acted in the Phase in which you were S/K.O. you recover from being Stunned in the Phase in which you were S/K.O. and then recover from being Knocked Out in subsequent Phases.

 

It is my recollection, though I could be wrong as I don't have access to my 4E book currently, that you could not recover from being Stunned in the same Phase you were Stunned in.

[ghost-angel]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

It is my recollection' date=' though I could be wrong as I don't have access to my 4E book currently, that you could not recover from being Stunned in the same Phase you were Stunned in.[/quote']

 

You did. The rules for recovering from being Stunned have not changed.

[archermoo]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

I honestly don't care about Holding Actions - it is outside the realm of my base argument regarding the sheer stupidity of how the rules worked under 4E and why 5E is better.

 

If you Hold an Action you risk losing that Action - if by no other factors than Holding it too long (assuming the GM allows for you to Hold without declaring a Hold Condition).

 

You can disregard the argument if you want, but that doesn't invalidate it. The only way you can recover from being Stunned in the same Segment that you are Stunned in is to have a lower DEX than the person who is Stunning you. Or if you have a higher DEX for the bad guy to have sucessfully blocked you so that he is going before you even though he has a lower DEX.

 

So if you have a low DEX you are likely to be able to recover from being Stunned almost right away. But if you have a high DEX you are likely to be stuck at 1/2 DCV and 1/2 normal hit location modifiers to target you for several Segments before you can recover. Which doesn't even take into account the potentially lost Held Action.

[archermoo]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

You did. The rules for recovering from being Stunned have not changed.

 

Ah, then that either comes from an older version of the rules, or from a house rule.

[ghost-angel]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

Of course this entire discussion hinges on all characters have the same SPD.

 

Once that differentiates a whole new mess of complications arises. Which is doubly why the unrealistic and silly rules from 4E needed to be changed. Gods help the High DEX/Lower SPD guy who gets Stunned & Knocked Out in the same Phase.

[archermoo]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

Of course this entire discussion hinges on all characters have the same SPD.

 

Once that differentiates a whole new mess of complications arises. Which is doubly why the unrealistic and silly rules from 4E needed to be changed. Gods help the High DEX/Lower SPD guy who gets Stunned & Knocked Out in the same Phase.

 

As I've said, I'm not talking about 4th edition rules, or CTaylor's house rule. I'm just talking about the current rules for recovering from being Stunned and how they favour low Dex characters.

 

And I'd say the High DEX/Lower SPD guy who just gets Stunned should hope whatever deities there are help him. His lower DEX sidekick recovers almost instantly from being Stunned, but he still has to wait until his next Phase to recover, stuck in 1/2 DCV, easy to head-shot mode.

[ghost-angel]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

As I've said' date=' I'm not talking about 4th edition rules, or CTaylor's house rule. I'm just talking about the current rules for recovering from being Stunned and how they favour low Dex characters.[/quote']

 

I'm not really convinced they do.

 

Unless there is wide Speed variation, then I could possibly see getting Stunned before your Action being beneficial as you are at 1/2 DCV for less time.

[CorPse]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

As far as I'm concerned the Held Action is a bit of gamble, and it's meant to be.

 

Let's keep in mind that a higher DEX character could use his held action to abort (Dodge, Flying Dodge, Block) or try to attack the lower DEX character (DEX roll vs. DEX roll to go first). If the faster character wants to risk losing their action, then that's up to them.

 

Nobody is making a higher DEX character hold. In my experience holding is a very useful tactic, but it usually slows the game down. The fact that you might get burned by doing it keeps character's from doing it every time the get a chance (ie sometimes you want to put a hurtin' on somebody else, before the hurt you... which has to be at least part of why you'd spend the points on DEX to begin with.)

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

Ah' date=' then that either comes from an older version of the rules, or from a house rule.[/quote']

 

I just did a quick check on every edition (I like having my books by my computer) - and they don't specify until 5th.

 

2nd-4th say that it takes a full phase to recover from being stunned, but say nothing about if the stunning takes place in the same segment - likjed the linked debate and the working in first edition (below) it could go either way.

 

1st says that the character recovers "on their next full phase" which I have seen some people read as "on the next full phase after the segment the attack landed" which may be where the 2 phases thing comes from. I had a GM that ran it that way.

[casualplayer]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

So I fessed up that I didn't know that delaying your action from your DEX count even if you use it in the same phase counts as Holding Your Action, with all the benefits and drawbacks entailed. I consider this to be the Screwing of the High DEXers as you are obligated to act early or place yourself in a diminished position.

 

I have always given characters the option of acting on their DEX count or less, DEX Roll-off to preempt someone else's action taken the same phase, and only counting it as a Held Action if it carried over into another segment. Any "Cost a Phase" actions can be paid for immediately, like being Stunned, if a full phase is available. Don't know if that is pure house but it is twenty years of habit.

 

Mandating that characters declare on their DEX or be considered Holding really penalizes you for any Full Phase or Delayed actions, like taking a REC or Haymakering. Having a higher DEX would essentially mean that you are vulnerable for a larger window. Don't like it, no sir.

[archermoo]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

I just did a quick check on every edition (I like having my books by my computer) - and they don't specify until 5th.

 

2nd-4th say that it takes a full phase to recover from being stunned, but say nothing about if the stunning takes place in the same segment - likjed the linked debate and the working in first edition (below) it could go either way.

 

1st says that the character recovers "on their next full phase" which I have seen some people read as "on the next full phase after the segment the attack landed" which may be where the 2 phases thing comes from. I had a GM that ran it that way.

 

Sounds like it was a house rule/interpretation then. Prior to 5th I'd always played it that you could not recover from being Stunned the segment that you were Stunned in. I still generally run it that way.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

Sounds like it was a house rule/interpretation then. Prior to 5th I'd always played it that you could not recover from being Stunned the segment that you were Stunned in. I still generally run it that way.

 

I've had GMs run it that way (my first Champs GM in fact).

[CTaylor]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

Losing 1 Phase is Losing 1 Phase.

 

True, but losing 1 phase earlier in the fight is less penalizing than losing 1 phase later in that fight. It takes you longer in real terms to get back into the fight, and that's a penalty for having a high DEX and acting already in that phase.

 

A house rule where you can't recover from being stunned in the same phase it happens would tend to erase that discrepancy, I agree, and I've considered it before.

[Mike W]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

I think the thing that drives me nuts the most is how many people I play with still have trouble calculating END costs. They're newer to the system than I am, but most of them have still got at least 30 sessions under their belt.

 

And the big one that I've seen more people forget over the years than anything else: Characters who are reduced to negative STUN and recover enough to return to the fight have END equal to their STUN.

[Mike W]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

In 5E if you have a Held Action and get Stunned you lose that Held Action and have to wait for your next Phase to Recover from being Stunned.

 

As an example:

 

2 Characters, one with Dex 23 SPD 4 holds his action on 12, waiting to see what the bad guys do. Bad guy hits him hard enough to Stun him. He loses his action from 12 and has to wait until 3 to recover from being Stunned, and until 6 to act. But his buddy with the 18 Dex goes after the bad guys. He also gets hit hard enough to be Stunned. He recovers from being Stunned on his Phase in 12, and gets to act on 3.

 

I've been playing HERO for almost 15 years. We've never played that way. We've always played that you lose your next action, but if you're holding then your held action counts as your next one.

[CorPse]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

I think the thing that drives me nuts the most is how many people I play with still have trouble calculating END costs. They're newer to the system than I am' date=' but most of them have still got at least 30 sessions under their belt.[/quote']

 

Yes, especially when you can do almost all of the figuring you'll ever have to do out of game. And things like HeroDesigner make it easy to have the END cost for most things printed right on the sheet.

[Adventus]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

Another way the system favors low Dex characters: If you plan on taking a recovery in your phase and you get damaged, but not stunned, before your Dex comes up, you still get your recovery in that phase. If you take damage after your Dex, it blows your recovery. Another reason why low Dex bricks are so hard to knockout. I ran across this rule the other day while reading the rulebook.

[Vanguard]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

When I first started playing I didn't realize that when the Maneuvers section said "STR Damage" it meant divide your STR by 5 and roll the result in dice.

 

So I ended up doing a 64 dice move through on an area where I thought a character was standing.

 

Dang near killed my self.

[CorPse]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

Another way the system favors low Dex characters: If you plan on taking a recovery in your phase and you get damaged but not stunned' date=' but before your Dex comes up, you still get your recovery in that phase. If you take damage after your Dex it blows your recovery. Another reason why low Dex bricks are so hard to knockout. I ran across this rule the other day while reading the rulebook.[/quote']

 

Well, you could always turn the tables by holding until after a Brick's action and then attacking... and if he holds as well, you can attack him in a phase where he can't recover right away.

[archermoo]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

Another way the system favors low Dex characters: If you plan on taking a recovery in your phase and you get damaged' date=' but not stunned, before your Dex comes up, you still get your recovery in that phase. If you take damage after your Dex, it blows your recovery. Another reason why low Dex bricks are so hard to knockout. I ran across this rule the other day while reading the rulebook.[/quote']

 

Another one I don't like. I prefer to run it that you can neither Recover from being Stunned nor take a normal Recovery in a Segment you have taken damage. Whether it happened before you Phase comes up or not.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

Another one I don't like. I prefer to run it that you can neither Recover from being Stunned nor take a normal Recovery in a Segment you have taken damage. Whether it happened before you Phase comes up or not.

 

I'll let anyone recover from being stunned - taking damage has no relevance to that. Recovering from being stunned is a "have to do this to keep playing" and with right timing someone taking damage every phase when recovering from stunn happens could leave someone stunned for a whole turn, taking a few points of stun each phase he tries to recover being stunned. That seems harsh.

 

However I do run "You cannot take a recovery in a segment you take damage in". So if you were going to take a recovery, and get hit, you lose the chance to take one.

[casualplayer]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

Another one I don't like. I prefer to run it that you can neither Recover from being Stunned nor take a normal Recovery in a Segment you have taken damage. Whether it happened before you Phase comes up or not.

 

Could be rough if you're in a Continuous damaging situation after being Stunned. 1 pip NND could take you right out of the game.

[archermoo]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

Could be rough if you're in a Continuous damaging situation after being Stunned. 1 pip NND could take you right out of the game.

 

I suppose it could, but after 25 years I don't recall any real issues with it.

[Mike W]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

Yes' date=' especially when you can do almost all of the figuring you'll ever have to do [i']out of game[/i]. And things like HeroDesigner make it easy to have the END cost for most things printed right on the sheet.

 

They generally don't have HERO designer. It's more just that I still get asked about it during the game sessions when it should either be on the sheet or you should know it by now. They're good guys, and I don't get on them or anything, but inside I'm annoyed as hell at having to answer the same question every week because someone has forgotten.