What rule don't people know?

[Machaeus]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

So basically a higher DEX character gets screwed when compared to a lower DEX character if he is both Stunned and Knocked Out in the same Phase. That makes no sense whatsoever.

 

Makes sense to me...

 

And does anyone know the answer to my question?

 

I have NO bleeping clue how the stupid Enhanced Senses rules work. How much does it cost to get Enhanced Hearing' date=' Sight, and Smell? And if it's variable, what does it cost per +1 to PER rolls or whatever it would be?[/quote']

[ghost-angel]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

Makes sense to me...

 

And does anyone know the answer to my question?

 

RE: Enhanced Senses.

 

5ER p163 makes it fairly clear.

 

All your Senses can get a +1 for 3pts.

Any 1 Sense Group gets a +1 for 2pts.

Any 1 Sense gets a +1 for 1pt.

 

If you're talking about how they apply, all the time, at the same time if the GM asks for a PER Roll from more than 1 Sense in the same phase.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "variable" - care to elaborate?

[casualplayer]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

So basically a higher DEX character gets screwed when compared to a lower DEX character if he is both Stunned and Knocked Out in the same Phase. That makes no sense whatsoever.

 

Yay! Screw those high DEXers! ;)

 

One way or another, mandating that the recipient of the StunKO spend one phase to recover from being Stunned before being able to apply REC costs the recipient the same amount of phases. It's pay now or pay later, but you're gonna pay.

 

Did you have this beef in earlier editions where it was "canon" instead of "house?"

[Machaeus]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

I guess I wasn't reading the right place. My bad, and thanks.

[ghost-angel]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

Yay! Screw those high DEXers! ;)

 

One way or another, mandating that the recipient of the StunKO spend one phase to recover from being Stunned before being able to apply REC costs the recipient the same amount of phases. It's pay now or pay later, but you're gonna pay.

 

Did you have this beef in earlier editions where it was "canon" instead of "house?"

 

I had a problem then, and I have a problem with it now.

 

And you are incorrect - Regardless of whether or not you have had an Action during the Phase you were Knocked Out you do not take a Recovery that Phase. You take a Recovery on your Next Full Phase. 5ER p411/5E p274

 

Your rule does firmly give low DEX Characters a faster recovery time from being Knocked Out, but 1 Phase.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

I don't see high DEX characters as screwed by the Stun/KO rules. The high DEX character who was KO'd after his DEX and consequently did not get a recovery had his action before getting KO'd. I'd rather have the opportunity to take action before getting KO'd than get a recovery (assuming I'm not below -10 STUN to even get that).

[archermoo]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

So basically a higher DEX character gets screwed when compared to a lower DEX character if he is both Stunned and Knocked Out in the same Phase. That makes no sense whatsoever.

 

Well in the normal rules a high DEX character already gets screwed compared to a lower DEX character.

 

DEX23Guy and DEX18Guy are both fighting DEX20Guy and DEX15GUY. Everyone has a 4 SPD. DEX23Guy holds his action, and then DEX20Guy throws an AOE Attack that Stuns both DEX23Guy and DEX18Guy, putting them both at 1/2 DCV and 1/2 penalties for having their hit locations targeted. DEX23Guy also loses his held action. Meanwhile DEX18Guy gets to recover from being Stunned before DEX15Guy gets to go, shaking off being Stunned much more quickly than his "faster" friend. Who now gets pummeled by DEX15Guy.

 

His house rule just makes it more obvious.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

Well in the normal rules a high DEX character already gets screwed compared to a lower DEX character.

 

DEX23Guy and DEX18Guy are both fighting DEX20Guy and DEX15GUY. Everyone has a 4 SPD. DEX23Guy holds his action, and then DEX20Guy throws an AOE Attack that Stuns both DEX23Guy and DEX18Guy, putting them both at 1/2 DCV and 1/2 penalties for having their hit locations targeted. DEX23Guy also loses his held action. Meanwhile DEX18Guy gets to recover from being Stunned before DEX15Guy gets to go, shaking off being Stunned much more quickly than his "faster" friend. Who now gets pummeled by DEX15Guy.

 

His house rule just makes it more obvious.

 

But you're comparing standard rule for being Stunned to a house rule for being Stunned & Knocked Out. It's been pointed out that the standard rule for Knocked Out ignores an otherwise Stunning attack.

[ghost-angel]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

I don't see high DEX characters as screwed by the Stun/KO rules. The high DEX character who was KO'd after his DEX and consequently did not get a recovery had his action before getting KO'd. I'd rather have the opportunity to take action before getting KO'd than get a recovery (assuming I'm not below -10 STUN to even get that).

 

Under 5E the rules definitely favor the High DEX Character regarding being Stunned & Knocked Out - since you don't get a Recovery on the Phase in which you are Knocked Out, even if you've gone, and you don't have to Recover from being Stunned once you can take Recoveries (since Knocked Out trumps Stunned by having all the same effects only More So). Pay for the privilege and all. . .

 

Under the House Rules/4E the Stunned & Knocked Out the Low DEX Character has a definite advantage of being able to Recover from being Stunned on the Phase they are Knocked Out, and then starts to take Recoveries on their next Phase, where High DEX Characters (having already acted) get to spend one extra Phase Recovering from being Stunned. Apparently you've paid for the privilege of being unconscious for one extra Phase. . .

[archermoo]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

But you're comparing standard rule for being Stunned to a house rule for being Stunned & Knocked Out. It's been pointed out that the standard rule for Knocked Out ignores an otherwise Stunning attack.

 

Actually I was just pointing out that the standard rules for Stunning favour low DEX characters. I realize that the Stunned portion gets superceded by the Knocked Out portion. My point was that the Stunning portion by itself favours low Dex characters, and that is why his house rule does as well.

[archermoo]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

Under 5E the rules definitely favor the High DEX Character regarding being Stunned & Knocked Out - since you don't get a Recovery on the Phase in which you are Knocked Out, even if you've gone, and you don't have to Recover from being Stunned once you can take Recoveries (since Knocked Out trumps Stunned by having all the same effects only More So). Pay for the privilege and all. . .

 

Under the House Rules/4E the Stunned & Knocked Out the Low DEX Character has a definite advantage of being able to Recover from being Stunned on the Phase they are Knocked Out, and then starts to take Recoveries on their next Phase, where High DEX Characters (having already acted) get to spend one extra Phase Recovering from being Stunned. Apparently you've paid for the privilege of being unconscious for one extra Phase. . .

 

And under the 5E rules for simply being Stunned you do get to recover from being Stunned the same phase you get Stunned, but only if your normal action is after you got Stunned. So if your Action comes up before you get Stunned, whether you use it or not, you lose your Held Action and have to wait until your next Phase to Recover from being Stunned. However if your normal action is after the attack that Stuns you, you get to recover from being Stunned during the same Segment. Apparently you've paid for the privilege of being Stunned for one extra Phase...

[ghost-angel]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

And under the 5E rules for simply being Stunned you do get to recover from being Stunned the same phase you get Stunned' date=' but only if your normal action is after you got Stunned. So if your Action comes up before you get Stunned, whether you use it or not, you lose your Held Action and have to wait until your next Phase to Recover from being Stunned. However if your normal action is after the attack that Stuns you, you get to recover from being Stunned during the same Segment. Apparently you've paid for the privilege of being Stunned for one extra Phase... [/quote']

 

is what I said, kinda. Only in less detail. If you're Stunned you lose a Normal Phase somewhere. Regardless of DEX. Seems Fair.

 

My statements were solely regarding being Knocked Out, where you lose 1 Phase if Knocked Out after your Normal Action and 2 Phases if Knocked Out before you Normal Action - thus the High DEX Person has paid for the privilege of possibly being able to Act First/Before Being Knocked Out. (These Phases are on top of any more Phases required to get above 0 STUN assuming you were at no less than -10 STUN.)

 

The House Rule/4E Rule flips that dynamic, causing the person who paid more points to lose more Phases by virtue of simply having paid more points in DEX.

[CTaylor]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

So basically a higher DEX character gets screwed when compared to a lower DEX character if he is both Stunned and Knocked Out in the same Phase. That makes no sense whatsoever.

 

Your problem here is with the Dex and recovery system, not this house rule. Higher DEX gets "screwed" in a lot of situations, including recovering from being stunned. That's not changed by this house rule.

[ghost-angel]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

Your problem here is with the Dex and recovery system' date=' not this house rule. Higher DEX gets "screwed" in a lot of situations, including recovering from being stunned. That's not changed by this house rule.[/quote']

 

For purposes of being Stunned under Fifth Ed. all DEX Levels lose exactly 1 Phase Of Action.

 

Period. It's just a matter of which Phase.

[CTaylor]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

That is correct, you lose one phase of action regardless of DEX.

[archermoo]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

For purposes of being Stunned under Fifth Ed. all DEX Levels lose exactly 1 Phase Of Action.

 

Period. It's just a matter of which Phase.

 

Unless you are holding your action. At which point you lose two.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

Your problem here is with the Dex and recovery system' date=' not this house rule. Higher DEX gets "screwed" in a lot of situations, including recovering from being stunned. That's not changed by this house rule.[/quote']

 

One of the things I've thought about doing (but never have) to correct that - have the actions declared in reverse DEX order, but happen in Dex order; with the caveat that a declared action can be aborted out of.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

"Crap, I'm Con Stunned."

 

"Huh? Is that different than just being Stunned?"

 

I've seen that conversation (or variations on it) at several con games, and I don't generally even play at cons.

 

The only thing I can figure is that they're saying 'my character is stunned due to the game mechanics' rather than simply being stunned by a revelation or something.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

One of the things I've thought about doing (but never have) to correct that - have the actions declared in reverse DEX order' date=' but happen in Dex order; with the caveat that a declared action can be aborted out of.[/quote']This mechanic is what the DC Heroes RPG used essentially in lieu of SPD. Everyone got the same number of actions, but the advantage of being fast was that you got to decide what you wanted to do last, but got to do it first.

 

Not as granular as Hero's SPD mechanic, but it has a certain elegance. Might be good in games where you typically wouldn't have a wide variation in SPDs anyway...

[ghost-angel]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

That is correct' date=' you lose one phase of action regardless of DEX.[/quote']

 

Then how do High DEX Characters get "screwed" by being Stunned? They don't.

 

They did get Screwed (and royally IMO) when Stunned & Knocked Out in the same Phase under 4E Rules.

[CTaylor]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

have the actions declared in reverse DEX order, but happen in Dex order

 

I did that a while in my Champions campaign, but it ended up with everyone holding and waiting to see what happened and everyone ended up just going in Dex order anyway but the bad guys. And I always make a point of telling everyone what the bad guys appear to be attempting in advance anyway - there's time between phases, they aren't frozen in place til they act. You can tell if some guy is trying to run or raise his gun to shoot or what have you.

 

THe reason high DEX guys get hurt by being stunned is because if you act before you are stunned you lose the next phase. If you are so slow you move after the guy who stuns you, you lose that phase instead of the next one. Its an artifact of how the DEX/Speed system works.

[archermoo]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

Then how do High DEX Characters get "screwed" by being Stunned?

 

By losing 2 phases instead of 1 if they were holding their action.

[ghost-angel]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

By losing 2 phases instead of 1 if they were holding their action.

 

!

 

I meant under 5E rules which the original quote of mine was referencing which the which the quote I quoted was trying to determine where the "screwing" was coming from...

 

Oh it got all f-ing twisted about because partial quotes were used.

 

Needless to say - that bit of conversation is regarding how things work in 5E. Where both lose 1 Phase.

[archermoo]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

!

 

I meant under 5E rules which the original quote of mine was referencing which the which the quote I quoted was trying to determine where the "screwing" was coming from...

 

Oh it got all f-ing twisted about because partial quotes were used.

 

Needless to say - that bit of conversation is regarding how things work in 5E. Where both lose 1 Phase.

 

In 5E if you have a Held Action and get Stunned you lose that Held Action and have to wait for your next Phase to Recover from being Stunned.

 

As an example:

 

2 Characters, one with Dex 23 SPD 4 holds his action on 12, waiting to see what the bad guys do. Bad guy hits him hard enough to Stun him. He loses his action from 12 and has to wait until 3 to recover from being Stunned, and until 6 to act. But his buddy with the 18 Dex goes after the bad guys. He also gets hit hard enough to be Stunned. He recovers from being Stunned on his Phase in 12, and gets to act on 3.

[ghost-angel]

Re: What rule don't people know?

 

THe reason high DEX guys get hurt by being stunned is because if you act before you are stunned you lose the next phase. If you are so slow you move after the guy who stuns you' date=' you lose that phase instead of the next one. Its an artifact of how the DEX/Speed system works.[/quote']

 

Losing 1 Phase is Losing 1 Phase.

 

High DEX goes. Middle DEX Stuns Him.

High DEX recovers. Middle DEX gets an action/Phase without retaliation from High DEX.

 

Middle DEX Stuns Low DEX. Low DEX recovers.

Middle DEX acts before Low DEX. Middle DEX gets an action/Phase without retaliation from Low DEX.

 

It's simple.

Fifth Edition:

-Stunned - Lose a Phase.

-Knocked Out - Lose a possible many Phases, but you can only start to recover on a Phase after the Phase you were Kocked Out in, regardless if you've taken an action that Phase yet or not.

- Stunned & Knocked. See Knocked Out.

 

Fourth Edition:

Stunned - Lose a Phase.

Knocked Out - Lose a possible many Phases, but you can only start to recover on a Phase after the Phase you were Kocked Out in, regardless if you've taken an action that Phase yet or not.

Stunned & Knocked Out - Must recover from being Stunned, if you have acted in the Phase you were S/K.O. you have to wait until your next Phase to recover from being Stunned, then you recover from being Knocked out in subsequent Phases. If you have NOT acted in the Phase in which you were S/K.O. you recover from being Stunned in the Phase in which you were S/K.O. and then recover from being Knocked Out in subsequent Phases.

 

Fourth Edition clearly favored Low DEX Characters by allowing them to Recover from being S/K.O. faster.