Measuring Cunning

[CrosshairCollie]

Something my wife (who runs the Teen Champs game) and I were discussing a while back ... we let it slide, but curiosity has gotten the better of me.

 

What stat, skill or other mechanic, if any, would quantify cleverness, slyness, and cunning in the HERO System? My wife leans to intelligence (thus the idea that I may be playing Vixen too clever for her 10 INT score), but I tend to think of INT as more 'book smarts'.

 

What say you?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Measuring Cunning

 

I think INT is a good stat.

 

INT doesn't so much represent "book smarts" as "ability to think quickly and remember clearly"

(as a note, no edition of Hero I'm aware of has ever used INT to measure book smarts, which I usually take to meaning "knowing stuff")

 

After all, anyone can get a 16- in Intellect Skills, high INT just has an easier time of it. Especially when you take into account a large number of them.

[archermoo]

Re: Measuring Cunning

 

I think INT is a good stat.

 

INT doesn't so much represent "book smarts" as "ability to think quickly and remember clearly"

(as a note, no edition of Hero I'm aware of has ever used INT to measure book smarts, which I usually take to meaning "knowing stuff")

 

After all, anyone can get a 16- in Intellect Skills, high INT just has an easier time of it. Especially when you take into account a large number of them.

 

That pretty much jibes with what the book says. "[the] ability to take in and process information quickly"

[Psylint]

Re: Measuring Cunning

 

Depends on the cunning.

 

"Low cunning" probably best represented by "Street Fighting Martial Arts" eye gouging, kidney punches, and all that stuff banned by the Earl of Queensbury.

 

"Cunning Vixen" seduction? persuasion

 

"Cunning like the Desert Fox (i.e. Rommel)" Tactics

 

"We have a cunning lawyer" PS: Attorney, KS Law, Securities, Accounting

 

"Cunning Socialite" High Society

 

"Cunning use of available materials (e.g. MacGuyver)" VPP Gadget foci of opportunity; inventor subscale "Jury rig"

 

"Cunning tactics, (e.g. Captain Nationalism uses 2 skill levels to bounce his shield to strike the target from an unexpected direction)"

 

 

There are lots of different kinds of cunning, but they all tend to put a very high value on both perception and quickly processing information, so INT and SPD come to mind. They also tend to have a tactical or knowledge component. Then again, it could be an instinctive cunning; perhaps one's hardwired reflexes are just very well adapted to the particular environment.

 

Cheers

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Measuring Cunning

 

Something my wife (who runs the Teen Champs game) and I were discussing a while back ... we let it slide, but curiosity has gotten the better of me.

 

What stat, skill or other mechanic, if any, would quantify cleverness, slyness, and cunning in the HERO System? My wife leans to intelligence (thus the idea that I may be playing Vixen too clever for her 10 INT score), but I tend to think of INT as more 'book smarts'.

 

What say you?

 

It can be represented in any number of ways, INT being represented mainly thinking quickly on your feet and Skill levels representing a bonus to skills when being particularly clever or devious.

 

I've gone both ways on this.

 

Creative: +10 INT, Lim: Only to be incredible creative (bonus applies half the time, -1)

 

Deceptive: +3 w/all Deception based skills (roughly 5 point level)

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Measuring Cunning

 

I personally envision "cunning" (in humans) as a sort of mixture of quick-wittedness and ability to keep one's cool in dangerous situations. As such, I might average INT and PRE if I wanted a measure of cunning specifically.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Measuring Cunning

 

Something my wife (who runs the Teen Champs game) and I were discussing a while back ... we let it slide, but curiosity has gotten the better of me.

 

What stat, skill or other mechanic, if any, would quantify cleverness, slyness, and cunning in the HERO System? My wife leans to intelligence (thus the idea that I may be playing Vixen too clever for her 10 INT score), but I tend to think of INT as more 'book smarts'.

 

What say you?

 

INT does not equal IQ. You could have a "genius" with a 10 (or lower) INT. A brilliant physicist in a heroic game could very reasonably be modeled with a 8 INT and SS: Physics 19- for instance, and / or more esoteric ways in a more liberal setting.

 

What INT really measures is raw perceptive ability and the ability to "think fast on ones feet" -- making good split second decisions when time is of the essence.

 

 

As far as CUNNING is concerned however, it really depends on what you mean by "cunning". As others have pointed out, its a pretty broad descriptor.

 

 

In general I personally would consider the root of cunningness to be being able to capitalize on opportunities, and come out on top in "loose" situations. There are a LOT of ways to model this in the HERO System. A few that may not be super obvious however are Overall Skill Levels which by their very nature make a character very flexible and able to capitalize on opportunities. Luck, perhaps w/ an RSR component, is also appropriate to help take advantage of situations.

 

 

On the other hand if you mean "cunning" in the sense of being sly and manipulative, then PRE and Interaction Skills are where the money is at...particularly if you are using Ultimate Skill.

 

 

If you could be more specific on what you mean, it would help.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Measuring Cunning

 

Depends on the cunning.

 

"Low cunning" probably best represented by "Street Fighting Martial Arts" eye gouging, kidney punches, and all that stuff banned by the Earl of Queensbury.

 

"Cunning Vixen" seduction? persuasion

 

"Cunning like the Desert Fox (i.e. Rommel)" Tactics

 

"We have a cunning lawyer" PS: Attorney, KS Law, Securities, Accounting

 

"Cunning Socialite" High Society

 

"Cunning use of available materials (e.g. MacGuyver)" VPP Gadget foci of opportunity; inventor subscale "Jury rig"

 

"Cunning tactics, (e.g. Captain Nationalism uses 2 skill levels to bounce his shield to strike the target from an unexpected direction)"

 

 

There are lots of different kinds of cunning, but they all tend to put a very high value on both perception and quickly processing information, so INT and SPD come to mind. They also tend to have a tactical or knowledge component. Then again, it could be an instinctive cunning; perhaps one's hardwired reflexes are just very well adapted to the particular environment.

 

Cheers

 

Very cunning.

 

I think this is the best approach - as with almost everything in Hero. If you want to model a concept then first you have to decide what that concept translates to in game terms. You can't even rely on labels - intelligence, for instance, is not always best modeled by a high INT (although that usually helps!) - it depends what flavour you are after. A brilliant but methodical 'plodder' might not have a high INT at all, as Killer Shrike points out.

 

Personally I'd get rid of the INT statistic from the game entirely. Never did understand why INT should control the ability to both comprehend physics AND smell something that most other people miss.

 

All currently INT based skills (including PER) would default to either a 9- or 11- roll (haven't decided yet. Probably 11-) and would then be bought up with skill levels, so you could better define your ability to perceive, your ability to reason or, for that matter, your cunning.

 

The problem with even Psylint's examples (cunning though they are) is that a single skill might require different sorts of approach in different situations. For example High Society in a PRE based skill, but you might well be able to pull off a good impression just by knowing the right fork to use. If you had 'levels of cunning' then you could apply them as you needed, and the base characteristic of the skill woudl be less important.

[lensman]

Re: Measuring Cunning

 

What stat, skill or other mechanic, if any, would quantify cleverness, slyness, and cunning in the HERO System?

 

What say you?

 

A combination of the following:

 

For quick wittedness: PSL to offest Skills which are used at faster time interval than normal.

HERO 5th ed. rev. pg 45 under Time chart.

 

Deduction. The player cheater skill. Basically trying to squeeze from the situation(GM) 'data' not readily available.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Measuring Cunning

 

This is really a role-playing issue, not a build issue. If you think you're playing the character "too smart" then just cut back on the smart actions. It shouldn't be hard to tone it down. It's really no different conceptually than avoiding osmosis; which has the character improperly acting on information the player has rather than knowledge the character has.

 

Keep in mind that a 10 INT is already higher than the average human; so INT 10 or 13 may be perfectly reasonable to represent someone with cunning. If you think "cunning" should require more INT (or some other point expenditure), then you can buy a bit more of it to assuage your conscience. (To me it indicates you're a good role-player.)

[casualplayer]

Re: Measuring Cunning

 

I think Cunning wouldn't be something that you would represent with a specific proactive addition of abilities or stats but by Psych. Lims that restrict the character's options or, if they are just minor aspects of the character's background, play them as Quirks. If it's a Teen Champs game many characters are prime candidates for Naive, but if you don't have that you may just be a worldly, jaded teen. The classic "How Can This Ever Disadvantage Me" Psych. Lim. Overconfidence would limit your Cunning because you wouldn't realize that your plan really isn't that clever and should be reconsidered.

 

There are proactive features that would lead to your character being seen as Cunning: Tactics, Analyze Style, Find Weakness, Skill Levels, Psych. Lim. Considers Actions Extensively Before Acting. But I don't think any of these individually represents Cunning.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Measuring Cunning

 

You can go further:

 

Armour (3 PD/3 ED Hardened 11 points active. Nonpersistent -1/4 and Cunning Based -1/2): 6 points

 

This is built exactly like Combat Luck, only we call it Combat Cunning, and it basically the ability to 'read' an opponent, and educe the harm they might do you in combat by, you know, cunning.

 

Why stop there?

 

+2d6 HtH Attack (10 points) 0 END 15 active points. HtH Attack -1/2 and Cunning Based -1/2): 7 points

 

You can work out the best place to hit an opponent to hurt them. I could go on (it has been said...)

 

The thing is you need to decide how cunning manifests for this character and apply that.

 

Here's a pretty good one:

 

Cunning: 8d6 luck

[archermoo]

Re: Measuring Cunning

 

You can go further:

 

Armour (3 PD/3 ED Hardened 11 points active. Nonpersistent -1/4 and Cunning Based -1/2): 6 points

 

This is built exactly like Combat Luck, only we call it Combat Cunning, and it basically the ability to 'read' an opponent, and educe the harm they might do you in combat by, you know, cunning.

 

Why stop there?

 

+2d6 HtH Attack (10 points) 0 END 15 active points. HtH Attack -1/2 and Cunning Based -1/2): 7 points

 

You can work out the best place to hit an opponent to hurt them. I could go on (it has been said...)

 

The thing is you need to decide how cunning manifests for this character and apply that.

 

Here's a pretty good one:

 

Cunning: 8d6 luck

 

So how would you buy Cunning Linguist?

 

(I couldn't resist anymore...)

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Measuring Cunning

 

So how would you buy Cunning Linguist?

 

(I couldn't resist anymore...)

Well, let's see...

 

Extra Limb (to simulate fine manipulation with... well, you know.)

Change Environment (dry to moist).

Mind Control, Telepathic, No Range, Concentrate, Extra Time, One Command (be really happy).

 

[Sean Waters]

Re: Measuring Cunning

 

Well, let's see...

 

Extra Limb (to simulate fine manipulation with... well, you know.)

Change Environment (dry to moist).

Mind Control, Telepathic, No Range, Concentrate, Extra Time, One Command (be really happy).

 

 

 

You forgot the 'Window Of Opportunity' limitation

[Sean Waters]

Re: Measuring Cunning

 

So how would you buy Cunning Linguist?

 

(I couldn't resist anymore...)

 

 

 

That particular phrase always conjours a line from a Deep Purple song, 'Knocking At Your Back Door'*:

 

So we put her on the hit list

Of a common cunning linguist

A master of many tongues

 

http://www.seeklyrics.com/lyrics/Deep-Purple/Knocking-At-Your-Back-Door.html

 

Happy days

 

* Something about excessively persistent salesmen, I've always assumed.

[archermoo]

Re: Measuring Cunning

 

 

That particular phrase always conjours a line from a Deep Purple song, 'Knocking At Your Back Door'*:

 

So we put her on the hit list

Of a common cunning linguist

A master of many tongues

 

http://www.seeklyrics.com/lyrics/Deep-Purple/Knocking-At-Your-Back-Door.html

 

Happy days

 

* Something about excessively persistent salesmen, I've always assumed.

 

You are a very bad man.

[pinecone]

Re: Measuring Cunning

 

Something my wife (who runs the Teen Champs game) and I were discussing a while back ... we let it slide, but curiosity has gotten the better of me.

 

What stat, skill or other mechanic, if any, would quantify cleverness, slyness, and cunning in the HERO System? My wife leans to intelligence (thus the idea that I may be playing Vixen too clever for her 10 INT score), but I tend to think of INT as more 'book smarts'.

 

What say you?

 

I don't see "cunning" as a stat...Dumb but cunning sounds real to me ...they may be Too cunning for thier own good (not smart)...but sneaky none the less....

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Measuring Cunning

 

So how would you buy Cunning Linguist?

 

(I couldn't resist anymore...)

 

I knew someone would fail that Ego roll eventually ...

[Comic]

Re: Measuring Cunning

 

Base characteristic for cunning? SPD, obviously.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Measuring Cunning

 

I'd have to say INT. Animals typically have INT at or above a typical human level, so INT is not a measure of the ability to reason. That comes from NOT having "animal intelligence" as a disadvantage. That leaves INT as a measure of perceptiveness, quick thinking and raw cunning, in my view.

 

To turn the original question around, this issue started because the GM feels the player's character is played too cunning for a 10 INT. If reduced or increased cunning is not the result of sliding along the INT scale, what is the advantage of a high INT, or the drawback of a low INT? It can't just be skill rolls - PRE costs 1:1, and has both skill and non-skill applications.

[Psylint]

Re: Measuring Cunning

 

How about this....

 

You ever have one of the scenarios where a whole bunch was going on at once,....

 

GM: "Right so a great big spot light pops up displaying Jane Doe Normal dangling over a bubbling vat of noxious chemicals, while "Men in Black" suits are wheeling away several chemical drums on dollies across a cat walk. Meanwhile, Punchline has a gun to the head of the Mayor and is laughing hysterically. An oversized alarm clock is ticking toward noon, or midnight, and with dozens of bundled wires coming off of it to stacks and stacks of red cylinders approximately a foot long and an inch in diameter, and in all otherways appear to be dynamite....."

 

and have a player say, "Huh, what was that again..."

 

Such a player with a high INT character gets to hear the spiel again, a low INT character has to take a half phase, make a PER roll, and then react.

 

The problem with intelligence in gaming generally, is that it is very hard to separate a player's intelligence from the character. I agree with you Hugh, it seems that INT did get a short stick (personally I preferred the house rule for Mental Illusions being based off of EGO [i refuse to the believe this] or INT [something's not right] at the option of the target, but that's me).

 

To return to the OP's point, how is the player's character being too cunning? For example, if the character is always bouncing attacks or using impromptu weapons; maybe start requiring PER rolls at penalties based on the "cunningness" of the tactic?

 

Is the character demonstrating excessive knowledge? Like they always avoid the Holographic duplicates of the antagonist, because they know that she's almost always invisible? Then require KS Super Antagonist.

 

Do the bluff a lot of their interactions? Call the bluff.

 

I think it would help to understand what kinds of things are at issue, to address it specifically.

 

Peace

[Comic]

Re: Measuring Cunning

 

So, by this scenario, Spiderman or the Flash would be the most cunning heroes, since they always ace these situations?

[Spidey88]

Re: Measuring Cunning

 

Well, both of these guys are extremely experienced heroes with reflexes out the wazoo - it's hard to say where their success comes from.

 

Is it their speed, agility, and experience? Is it their high INT scores? Undoubtedly both - but for our purposes, it's hard to pick out "cunning" from that example.

 

 

My two cents? INT score, overall levels, skills, and a silver tongue all contribute to "cunning", but different aspects are used in different situations.

[Psylint]

Re: Measuring Cunning

 

So' date=' by this scenario, Spiderman or the Flash would be the most cunning heroes, since they always ace these situations?[/quote']

 

No. Least not that I see. Wolverine sets a mean ambush, 'Morph is kinda insanely cunning what with the switch of appearance and power sets as is Mystique. Batman has always been crafty even taking the "long view" to provide the government with the Achilles heal of all of the Justice League. Ariel was a darned good fast talker and at least slightly psychic with a penchant for chaos theory and planar physics. Green Arrow, Hawkeye, and all the rest of the folks who "played over their heads" tended to be quite cunning in their use of tactics and the environment to compensate for their lack of phenomenal cosmic power. Lex Luthor, his political maneuvering alone should give him a Master's of Cunning. Apocalypse, High Evolutionary, Beyonder in certain iterations, we all similarly crafty in operating huge, cosmic schemes, often using the mere mortals as cat's paws or canon fodder without their awareness.

 

There are a lot of ways to be cunning. The question that occurs to me is of all the cunning heroes or villains in the genre, are their any I would expect to have an average or below average intelligence score?

 

The answer is yes. Every James Bond type villain. Absolutely brilliant set up, and always flailing around like a chicken when the slightest monkey wrench gets thrown in.

 

Peace