lapsedgamer Posted October 18, 2007 Report Share Posted October 18, 2007 I just found a pristine copy of Watchers of The Dragon online, and it came in the mail today. I did not read it when it was it was first published, as I had sworn off gaming forever at that point. I think I will really like this book. You can clearly see the origins of most of the martial artists in the current CU. I haven't really noticed any major conversion issues at first glance. You could probably just run the characters as written and fudge any minor changes in rules between editions. It looks like Mr. Long did a great job on it, as always, I 'm going to try to read it cover to cover next week. If anyone has both Watchers of The Dragon and Ninja Hero--which I don't have--could you fill me in on anything that I would be missing if I didn't read Ninja Hero. I'm wondering if the updated material from WOTD is there, or somewhere else. I am mainly interested in superheroic martial artists, and I try to avoid redundant purchases. Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theron Posted October 18, 2007 Report Share Posted October 18, 2007 Re: Watchers of the Dragon vs. Ninja Hero Ninja Hero (the 4th Edition version) was really a forerunner of The Ultimate Martial Artist, with a decent amount of genre discussion and a couple of scenarios aimed at different (though mainly heroic power levels). Ninja Hero (5th Edition) is a guide to martial arts genres. Neither has much bearing on Watchers of the Dragon, which is my hands-down favorite 4th Edition supplement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobGreenwade Posted October 18, 2007 Report Share Posted October 18, 2007 Re: Watchers of the Dragon vs. Ninja Hero You can think of Watchers of the Dragon as more of a combination scenario book and "Martial Arts World" supplement for Champions. Ninja Hero (both editions) is more of a genre book for the martial arts adventure genre, with plenty of material to help add martial-arts flavor to other genres (even if it wasn't originally designed to do so). Whether you're missing something by not buying NH depends on what you want to do with your games. If you like martial-arts flavored games (whether your preferred style is The Matrix, Walker, Texas Ranger, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, Yo-Yo Girl Cop, or something else altogether), it can be a big help. At the other end of the spectrum, I happen to be part of a small (but hopefully growing) minority who think that the Champions Universe suffers by not having a 5th Edition "Martial World" supplement like WotD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted October 18, 2007 Report Share Posted October 18, 2007 Re: Watchers of the Dragon vs. Ninja Hero Funny, I think of Watchers as a Character book, first and foremost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 18, 2007 Report Share Posted October 18, 2007 Re: Watchers of the Dragon vs. Ninja Hero Ninja Hero was also, though not solely, intended for a superheroic setting. The Yoosoo were clearly supervillains. Or do I remember something wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheQuestionMan Posted October 18, 2007 Report Share Posted October 18, 2007 Re: Watchers of the Dragon vs. Ninja Hero I always thought of The Watchers of the Dragon as an Adventure Book combined with Villainy Amok. LOL QM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted October 18, 2007 Report Share Posted October 18, 2007 Re: Watchers of the Dragon vs. Ninja Hero Yeah, Watchers of the Dragon is pretty clearly an adventure/setting book with some extra characters. I've gotten a deal of use out my copy as source of ideas, even though I primarily run heroic level games. However, here's a related question - I also have ultimate martial artist and that also gets a fair amount of use. It's equally clearly a character-building book for martial arts. What's the difference between that and 5th Ed. Ninja Hero? cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobGreenwade Posted October 18, 2007 Report Share Posted October 18, 2007 Re: Watchers of the Dragon vs. Ninja Hero I also have ultimate martial artist and that also gets a fair amount of use. It's equally clearly a character-building book for martial arts. What's the difference between that and 5th Ed. Ninja Hero?To put it as concisely as possible' date=' the difference is that the latter book is a [i']campaign[/i]-building book for martial arts. I could also mention that someone once said that the difference between 4th and 5th Ed NH is that the former shows how to run a Martial Arts campaign, and the latter shows why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted October 18, 2007 Report Share Posted October 18, 2007 Re: Watchers of the Dragon vs. Ninja Hero At the other end of the spectrum' date=' I happen to be part of a small (but hopefully growing) minority who think that the Champions Universe suffers by not having a 5th Edition "Martial World" supplement like WotD.[/quote'] Count me in on wanting a 5th Ed "Martial World" supplement. I think it would sell pretty well, since martial arts stuff seems to be a perennial favorite with gamers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted October 18, 2007 Report Share Posted October 18, 2007 Re: Watchers of the Dragon vs. Ninja Hero Ninja Hero was also, though not solely, intended for a superheroic setting. The Yoosoo were clearly supervillains. Or do I remember something wrong? What you're remembering is 4th Ed. Ninja HERO. While that book did deal with heroic-level martial arts campaigns and characters, and the rules presented would apply to any, I agree that it slanted more toward supporting superheroics. However, the 5th Ed. version of the book is truly cross-genre, providing a full spectrum of genre and campaigning advice, with example NPCs of all sorts. IMO what makes Watchers of the Dragon unique is that it covers so many bases at once. It presents a major adventure arc written as an interesting prose narrative; provides martial-arts oriented characters of all power levels from around the world; sets up the scenario for running the Tournament of the Dragon, with maps and NPCs; and even includes a grimoire of oriental-style magic spells. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobGreenwade Posted October 18, 2007 Report Share Posted October 18, 2007 Re: Watchers of the Dragon vs. Ninja Hero IMO what makes Watchers of the Dragon unique is that it covers so many bases at once. It presents a major adventure arc written as an interesting prose narrative; provides martial-arts oriented characters of all power levels from around the world; sets up the scenario for running the Tournament of the Dragon' date=' with maps and NPCs; and even includes a grimoire of oriental-style magic spells.[/quote']That's my favorite thing about that book. I'd love to see that approach taken with more gaming supplements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greeter Posted September 27, 2008 Report Share Posted September 27, 2008 Re: Watchers of the Dragon vs. Ninja Hero I am presently in the beginning stages of running the Tournament of the Dragon in my Champions campaign. My first book was destroyed years ago. I recently purchased a second book but it is damaged (didn't see the damage until I got it home). Blessedly, it is only a couple of small sections, but one of them is necessary. What is the bonus to the fighter, who wins the tournament, in fighting the Death Dragon? The section of his rewards is only slightly damaged. I know about the talisman making his country of choice the next leading world power, but it looks like he gets somethiing else in addition to reputation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted September 28, 2008 Report Share Posted September 28, 2008 Re: Watchers of the Dragon vs. Ninja Hero Let me see if I can remember 2d6 luck 5 pts of wealth contacts with the watchers.. okay I'll go grab the book... I was right sort of, Favor from Watchers long life 2pts of LS vs aging and the Preeminent country thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greeter Posted September 28, 2008 Report Share Posted September 28, 2008 Re: Watchers of the Dragon vs. Ninja Hero Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba smith Posted September 28, 2008 Report Share Posted September 28, 2008 Re: Watchers of the Dragon vs. Ninja Hero i think i'll see if i can get a copt of wotd it sounds interesting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greeter Posted September 28, 2008 Report Share Posted September 28, 2008 Re: Watchers of the Dragon vs. Ninja Hero It was just an awesome idea! I have used it for many campaigns, and all the groups have loved it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted September 28, 2008 Report Share Posted September 28, 2008 Re: Watchers of the Dragon vs. Ninja Hero What is the bonus to the fighter' date=' who wins the tournament, in fighting the Death Dragon?[/quote'] The short-term benefits to the winner of the Tournament which apply to actually fighting the Death Dragon are: Holy amulets and talismans which trigger the DD's Susceptabilities 5d6 Luck +6 Lightning Reflexes with all attacks +2 Damage Classes for martial arts maneuvers +2 DCV +50 END, +10 REC, +30 STUN The long-term benefits the champion gains and retains if he defeats the Death Dragon are: 2d6 Luck (or +2d6 if he already has Luck) One Favor from the Watchers of the Dragon (1 point) 5 points of Money Perk 2 points of Life Support: Longevity Home country becomes preeminent on Earth for next 60 years Regarding that last point, I always wondered what the consequences would be if Firewing entered and won the Tournament and defeated the Death Dragon... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted September 28, 2008 Report Share Posted September 28, 2008 Re: Watchers of the Dragon vs. Ninja Hero Must've missed this thread before. Let me answer one of the questions that was discussed early on: Watchers Of The Dragon is an enemies book. It has a scenario tacked on (much like Classic Enemies had Escape From Stronghold), and is presented in an unusual format, but it's an enemies book, pure and simple. It's original working title was something akin to "Martial Arts Enemies," IIRC. And have no fear -- we definitely intend to do a Martial World book. It'll be for 6E and thus a little down the road, but we'll do one. Too many cool things running around out there not to do a book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba smith Posted September 28, 2008 Report Share Posted September 28, 2008 Re: Watchers of the Dragon vs. Ninja Hero thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted September 28, 2008 Report Share Posted September 28, 2008 Re: Watchers of the Dragon vs. Ninja Hero Watchers Of The Dragon is an enemies book. It has a scenario tacked on (much like Classic Enemies had Escape From Stronghold)' date=' and is presented in an unusual format, but it's an enemies book, pure and simple. It's original working title was something akin to "Martial Arts Enemies," IIRC.[/quote'] I would strongly disagree that there's anything "pure and simple" about WOTD. Your creation transcends any other "Enemies" book ever published by Hero Games, which is why it's warmly remembered and treated as special by so many Champsfiles. In case that wasn't clear, the fact that's it's not simply an Enemies book is a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greeter Posted September 28, 2008 Report Share Posted September 28, 2008 Re: Watchers of the Dragon vs. Ninja Hero Regarding that last point, I always wondered what the consequences would be if Firewing entered and won the Tournament and defeated the Death Dragon... Funny you should mention that. Firewing ended up winning last time I ran the tournament. We spent a full session just discussing, among the gaming group, what he would do. The PCs kept trying to get him to sponsor their home countries. The players were happy to learn Firewing will not be participating in the tournament this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobGreenwade Posted September 28, 2008 Report Share Posted September 28, 2008 Re: Watchers of the Dragon vs. Ninja Hero Watchers Of The Dragon is an enemies book. It has a scenario tacked on (much like Classic Enemies had Escape From Stronghold), and is presented in an unusual format, but it's an enemies book, pure and simple. It's original working title was something akin to "Martial Arts Enemies," IIRC. And have no fear -- we definitely intend to do a Martial World book. It'll be for 6E and thus a little down the road, but we'll do one. Too many cool things running around out there not to do a book. As reluctant as I should be to contradict the author's description, I feel I must do so in the case of Watchers Of The Dragon. It may be an enemies book, but the adjectival phrase "pure and simple" is (no offense intended) complete malarkey. It's a lot more than just an Enemies book with a scenario tacked on. It's a fiction book, a Martial World sourcebook, and probably (at least, to my mind) a better guide for getting around in one of the Champions Universe's subcultures (albeit the 4th Edition CU) than anything else along those lines that Hero Games has published, regardless of owner, editor, author, edition, or anything else. It's the only role-playing book I've ever read that actually gave the reader a sense of immersion, and I wish every Ultimate Book had been accompanied by one like it. So I'm sorry, Steve, but you're just plain wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagisawa Takumi Posted September 29, 2008 Report Share Posted September 29, 2008 Re: Watchers of the Dragon vs. Ninja Hero Of my 4e books it and the Ultimate Martial Artist of that time were my favourite books. And frankly, I'd love to see another like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted September 29, 2008 Report Share Posted September 29, 2008 Re: Watchers of the Dragon vs. Ninja Hero Funny you should mention that. Firewing ended up winning last time I ran the tournament. We spent a full session just discussing, among the gaming group, what he would do. The PCs kept trying to get him to sponsor their home countries. The players were happy to learn Firewing will not be participating in the tournament this time. I was thinking more of the implications of Malva becoming "preeminent among the nations of Earth;" and whether the blessing of Earth's gods might be enough to counteract the Elder Worm curse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted September 29, 2008 Report Share Posted September 29, 2008 Re: Watchers of the Dragon vs. Ninja Hero It would make a wonderful twist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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