Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

[Mike W]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

5th Edition has actually cut out a lot of the old fashioned EC abuse. You can't buy stats or armor and the like in ECs anymore, so no more vampires and werewolves on 150 points. Also, no more EC for "my godlike abilieis." just to shoehorn in more points.

 

I also think that disallowing the old focus and OIHI combo has stopped a lot of powered armor munchkinism.

 

I never allowed it in the first place. OIHD and Focus are completely different. You get one or the other but not both.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

I never allowed it in the first place. OIHD and Focus are completely different. You get one or the other but not both.

 

OIHD, wrong acronym, thanks. That was one of the biggest scams going in the games I played years ago. There was always some min maxing twink out to play God on a budget slapping those two limits on everything on their character sheet with the excuse of a powered armor concept. Meanwhile, I'm trying to honestly play my 250 point version of Iron Fist. I know I sound bitter, but I had issues with this.

[Vestnik]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

Miss Thing gets to play a character that can suck an Asgardian dry.

 

Must... not... make... joke...

[AdamLeisemann]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

I find it pretty difficult to get any of my characters to conform to the point limits. I usually need to enlist my brother's help.

[Lord Fyre]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

Must... not... make... joke...

 

Much . . . too . . . late . . .

[pinecone]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

I just got a horrifying visual image there that you could not have possibly intended...

 

Dude it made me smile....what?

[pinecone]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

The extras that you have to buy to make a Growth based character tenable do jack up the cost. You need a lot of PD/ED, and you'd better make almost all of that resistant. You are a friggin' target with all the DCV penalties, and you're going to get hit a lot. Extra Running, extra PRE and other extra stats add up quickly. You also have to add seperate area effect for STR and other nice to have stuff into the mix too.

 

I think there are some internal problems with Growth and Shrinking and how they interact with each other and normal sized objects in Hero, but that's another thread. In fact, I started it once. That horse is good and dead.

 

Yeah, for that one the trick I use is linking the stuff to growth...+3 Armor per level of groeth, etc.... it's usually Ok......

[nexus]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

I think the Dark Horse comics character Ghost would be pretty hard to do on 350 points though I admit I've never tried. She's a desolidification based character with all the bells and whistles. She can affect the solid world while intangible, make others intangible and uses these ability for a variety of instant kill type attacks like dragging her opponents into solid matter and letting them become corporeal again and sticking her gun through her opponent's armor (and sometimes skull or body) and firing it. She seemed fairly agile, quick and athletic though not "superhuman" was a good shot, could teleport (though it was a little dangerous). Her powers did comes with some costs. She was permanently intangible and could pass through anything but jade so she had sleep on it or she'd sink into the ground for example.

[Vondy]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

I think the Dark Horse comics character Ghost would be pretty hard to do on 350 points though I admit I've never tried. She's a desolidification based character with all the bells and whistles. She can affect the solid world while intangible' date=' make others intangible and uses these ability for a variety of instant kill type attacks like dragging her opponents into solid matter and letting them become corporeal again and sticking her gun through her opponent's armor (and sometimes skull or body) and firing it. She seemed fairly agile, quick and athletic though not "superhuman" was a good shot, could teleport (though it was a little dangerous). Her powers did comes with some costs. She was permanently intangible and could pass through anything but jade so she had sleep on it or she'd sink into the ground for example.[/quote']

 

It would be expensive, but you could probably build her with Deso, 0 End, Persistent, Affects Physical World, UAO, always On, Not Through Jade (136) and a 50 Point VPP, Cosmic +2, Desolidification Related Powers Only -1/2 (106). It comes out to ~242 Points in powers, but you could do most of what you describe that way. If all you really need is that she's a good shot and moderately athletic, then you have 108 points to build a shooter on. If you didn't allow the VPP it would probably become nigh impossible.

[Doctor Agenda]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

About an immortal's skills...this might be a place to use Multiform: have an alternate form with an earlier skill set that is accessed through 'flashbacks'. Have THAT form pay the Multiform cost because it was not as experienced as you are now. Need to shoe a horse, translate ancient Greek, or pilot a clipper ship? Just think back.

 

The Multiform option for imitating powers is the way to get the closest build to Rogue, IMO. Just buy enough different forms to carry her through her career. 64 should be plenty, and if it isn't you should be able to come up with 5 points by then to double it. In this case the base character pays the cost, as her alternate forms are her plus the powers she's sucked up. The power-sucking options are still pricy, but Multiform still simulates what she does better than a power pool. I would not allow alternate forms over the level of the other PCs, but others might.

[mirage]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

OIHD' date=' wrong acronym, thanks. That was one of the biggest scams going in the games I played years ago. There was always some min maxing twink out to play God on a budget slapping those two limits on everything on their character sheet with the excuse of a powered armor concept. Meanwhile, I'm trying to honestly play my 250 point version of Iron Fist. I know I sound bitter, but I had issues with this.[/quote']

 

Sounds like a GM issue, if only one player is getting away with it.

 

On the other hand, if everybody else is slapping -1/2 to -1 limits on everything, then stop sweating about how the game is "supposed to be played", just have fun and build your characters to match the campaign.

[nexus]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

As I recall: Ghost

 

Desolidification 0 Endurance, Persistent, Always On Affect by Magic, can't pas through Jade

 

Desolidification, 0 Endurance, Usable as Attack

 

Affect Real World on Strength (lets give her an 18 to 20 I recall her wrestling some fairly big guys but generally it was a surprise attack so maybe they only got Casual Strength and were dead before their phase came up). 0 Endurance on this as well or she had a very high Con/lots of Endurance.

 

To her shoot through armor trick at 1d6 would cost around 80 Active Points (Affects

Real World, NND, Does Body 0 Endurance) the last one is iffy but I don't remember her running out of bullets or losing her weapon enough for it to be a focus, again subject to interpretation. That one would be No Range since she had to stick the barrel into her target, IIRC.

 

She'd have another just plain Affects Real World Killing attack.

 

I'd argue they'd be more than 1d6. It was a big gun and tend allot of damage, usually one shotting targets.

 

I'm not sure how to write up pulling people into Solid Matter and letting them go. I guess you could use the Teleportation into Solid Object rules but it's kind of handwave driven.

 

I remember she could fly and Teleport by moving through her own personal Hell.

 

She had good Dex and Speed but it didn't appear to be Superhuman. Opponents acted before her at times but generally couldn't effect her so usually she didn't evade much so DCV is hard to guess. Good Speed, maybe 4-5. High Pre, she scared people and nothing much phased her. Good to high Ego, High Com (of course), Good with her gun and rarely missed, was able to trick shots like shooting through an elevator cable while under duress/attack. She made allot of headshots

 

Some hand to hand ability but it wasn't her strong suit, tough enough to take a heroic beating by the few things that could hurt her and seemed to have Reduced Endurance on most if not all of her powers. In the Champions Universe I'd guess guess her physical attributes were hovering around the 18-23 range.

 

Eventually she buys off the Always On on her Desolidification.

 

and...that's all I can really remember off the top of my head. I didn't read the comic steadily. The character's attitude grated and the seeming lack of challenge in her "fights" was dull. I've been told the later series improved in both regards and the series/character are somewhat popular.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

The most obvious character concept you can't build on 350 points is anyone based on stopping time.

 

Nakamura Hiro from Heroes, Kirby Winter from the Girl, the Gold watch and everything, etc.

 

You can't build time stop on 350 points. Not if you have the ability to interact with the 'time stopped' environment.

 

Arguably, you can't build this for any amount of points without an egregious amount of handwaving.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

Nakamura Hiro from Heroes, Kirby Winter from the Girl, the Gold watch and everything, etc.

 

The girl, the gold watch, and everything. I almost forgot about that movie. I seem to remember loving it at the time. Early 80s, is that right? I wonder if that's just nostalgia, or if I would enjoy it today.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

I never allowed it in the first place. OIHD and Focus are completely different. You get one or the other but not both.

 

 

Funny we fell its almost necessary to do powered armor properly. You use it to represent a damageable real focus that is hard to store ( usually stored like a real several hundred pound suit of armor.) and takes considerable time to put on. One that the player can be removed from but not in combat.

[jtelson]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

The most obvious character concept you can't build on 350 points is anyone based on stopping time.

 

Nakamura Hiro from Heroes, Kirby Winter from the Girl, the Gold watch and everything, etc.

 

You can't build time stop on 350 points. Not if you have the ability to interact with the 'time stopped' environment.

 

Arguably, you can't build this for any amount of points without an egregious amount of handwaving.

 

This depends entirely on what you want to accomplish during 'stopped time'. TK, Missile Deflection, Change Environment, Teleport and a Variable SFX attack or 2; some of which have AOE Selective can accomplish most time-stop effects with little to no handwavium. It's all about the difference between 'I stop time' and 'What does stopping time get me?'

[Vondy]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

Funny we fell its almost necessary to do powered armor properly. You use it to represent a damageable real focus that is hard to store ( usually stored like a real several hundred pound suit of armor.) and takes considerable time to put on. One that the player can be removed from but not in combat.

 

Which may be more gamer rationalism than genre application. In the comics, using Iron Man as an example, he can carry the armor in a briefcase and don it in a single, conveniently discreet panel. He need not count phases or turns when donning and doffing the suit. I'm not saying the way we do it, or even a more rational less genre driven approach is wrong (its a game, not a comic, and we get to be in the driver seat), but the diveregence of reasoning is interesting.

[nexus]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

The most obvious character concept you can't build on 350 points is anyone based on stopping time.

 

Nakamura Hiro from Heroes, Kirby Winter from the Girl, the Gold watch and everything, etc.

 

You can't build time stop on 350 points. Not if you have the ability to interact with the 'time stopped' environment.

 

Arguably, you can't build this for any amount of points without an egregious amount of handwaving.

 

I think you could squeeze in Enter the Speed Zone in a 350 point character but that's a big old Stop Sign power

 

but then again, stopping time should be.

[nexus]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

This depends entirely on what you want to accomplish during 'stopped time'. TK' date=' Missile Deflection, Change Environment, Teleport and a Variable SFX attack or 2; some of which have AOE Selective can accomplish most time-stop effects with little to no handwavium. It's all about the difference between 'I stop time' and 'What does stopping time get me?'[/quote']

 

Since he mentioned interacting with the Time Stopped universe he was going for the "Everyone and Everything else frozen while the character can do whatever they want" kind of Stop Time. It's true that you can "fake it" more cheaply. I have PC in a low point campaign (Stopwatch) that had some effective Time Stop tricks built on 250ish points

[casualplayer]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

I think you could squeeze in Enter the Speed Zone in a 350 point character but that's a big old Stop Sign power

 

but then again, stopping time should be.

 

The Stop Sign for ETSZ should be large enough to see from space with the naked eye.

 

For Ghost, she pretty much just has Desolid UAA, a "merge with stuff" KA and a naked Indirect to use with all her attacks. She gets pretty creative later on but that could be bought with experience. The biggest expence is her COM when drawn by Adam Hughes.

[nexus]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

For Ghost, she pretty much just has Desolid UAA, a "merge with stuff" KA and a naked Indirect to use with all her attacks. She gets pretty creative later on but that could be bought with experience. The biggest expence is her COM when drawn by Adam Hughes.

 

Even in the beginning she could do things like fly, the "stick the gun in 'em" trick among other things. Indirect doesn't allow a character to ignore personal armor or attack solid characters when the the character is desolid. As I recall, she could fly and teleport from the beginning as well. Her attacks are pretty consistently lethal enough so that it's not just hype to make fairly large in game terms. 1 or 2 dice of Killing Damage would be selling them short, IMO.

[OddHat]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

I can build a tribute to pretty much any comic book character on 350 points. However, there are concepts that require some serious point massaging and min maxing to fit on that level, and many GMs would (reasonably) refuse to have those character tributes in a campaign. Cries of munchkinism would also ring throughout the boards.

[nexus]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

I can build a tribute to pretty much any comic book character on 350 points. However' date=' there are concepts that require some serious point massaging and min maxing to fit on that level, and many GMs would (reasonably) refuse to have those character tributes in a campaign. Cries of munchkinism would also ring throughout the boards.[/quote']

 

That would make a good challenge thread "Build this character in 350 points or less".

 

Edit: The problem would be finding an "objective" assessment of the character in question.

[OddHat]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

That would make a good challenge thread "Build this character in 350 points or less".

 

Sure. Or 150 or less, or 50 or less for uber min-maxers.

 

The New Circle managed tributes to the core Justice Leaguers for 350 (albeit at reduced power level in some cases, but Power Level is only one aspect of a character's Concept). The Five managed tributes to the core Avengers at 350 each. The Young Titans manage tributes to the Teen Titans at 350 each. I've posted several tank smashing 350 point characters, and Socially Conscious Man at 350 points can manage pretty close to Molecule Man / Franklin Richards / Plot Device of the Week effects at least on a planetary level. The real trick isn't "What can you build for X points" so much as "what can you build that's reasonably straightforward to run and fun to play for X points". And then you get people arguing over "reasonably straightforward" and "fun".

 

On the flip side, as Susano discusses in his many great posts on the subject, creating a faithful game version of a long running fictional character will often cost far more points than a slimmed down tribute.

[assault]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

On the flip side' date=' as Susano discusses in his many great posts on the subject, creating a faithful game version of a long running fictional character will often cost far more points than a slimmed down tribute.[/quote']

 

This is the core fact, and it's why I'm personally such a bore on the topic of "build the character as they first appeared, not as they are after fifty years".

 

Even there, though, there are indeed some characters that can't be reasonably built on starting points, although they are rarer than you might think.

 

For what it's worth, I've never had an opportunity to apply a "first appearance" analysis to Rogue, who is one of the most commonly cited examples of a character it is impossible to build on starting points. It's conceivable that her absorbing powers may not have been quite so ultimately crunchy at first. Of course, Rogue is also a prime example of the fact that the rules are different for PCs compared to NPCs, and that the GM can cheat!