EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

[Fitzerific]

Hi all! I've been skulking about the forums here for some time and just rescently created an account here. I am just starting up with Champions again after a several year hiatus, and I have noticed that the fifth edition has introduced a new rule that I find myself needing to break in order to create my characters the way I had made them in fourth edition.

 

The change is that of a prohibition of powers that naturally cost zero end englobed into an elemental control. This was usually how I used to make all of my super armored heroes, I take an EC where I put all of my static powers such as life support, armor, flash defence, mental defence, power defence, damage resistance, and most importantly characteristics. The more dynamic powers were placed into a MP such as force fields, EB's, RKA's, HKA's, and any other powers that I could safely scale back in order to change tactics in combat.

 

I can get used to the fact that now we cannot use characteristics bought as powers to allow for the calculation of figures characteristics, but I'm feeling constrained to create a house rule allowing non-end powers to be bought into EC's just to follow my previous notions.

 

I'm interested to hear what other people think of the change and how they have adapted from the change.

[Alibear]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

I don't like flaming people after their first post but for you I'll make an exception.

 

That is the most heinous sounding rules rapery I've encountered in many a year. Obviously if all characters are built to these guidelines you have no problems but if anyone is actually following the rules you'll have horrible imbalance between power levels which makes the GM's job that bit harder.

 

Anyways, I'd reccomend that you stick to the rules but as they say, "Your game, your rules."

 

Enjoy.

[Fitzerific]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

I don't understand how allowing powers that inherently cost zero end into EC's is unballancing. Please clarify for me.

[SteveZilla]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

ECs are a point savings for having a good, coherent concept. But they have limitations to prevent just anybody from getting that savings (and thus the potential imbalance)

 

With a reduced cost of powers, a character can buy more powers (or bigger ones). With a reduced cost, the main (IMO) limiting factor of the powers in an EC is the Endurance they Cost. Yeah, all your powers may be half-cost (barring the EC pool itself), but can the character pay 48 END a Phase?

 

Allowing natively Zero-END powers in there destroys one of the main limiting factors to abuse (the END Cost). The reason why END-costing powers can be placed in an EC even when bought down to Zero END is that the extra cost of making it Zero END eats up much of the savings that the EC would give, thus limiting the abuse (though it's still possible).

 

Also, to have an EC, you have to explain why when one of the powers is Drained/Suppressed, they *all* are.

 

Remember, EC's are a reward, not a right. See the quote in my sig, also.

[jtelson]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

I don't understand how allowing powers that inherently cost zero end into EC's is unballancing. Please clarify for me.

 

The thinking is that EC's were inherently unbalanced. They provided cost reduction for what was essentially nothing and not all characters used them. So limitaions needed to be added

 

OK now that I've said that I think they might be less balanced now not more. They still provide a cost reduction but fewer characters have access to them. Alright now I need clarification as well. Thanks a lot

[Fitzerific]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

If the main limiting factor to ballance out characters who use EC's versus those who do not use EC's is that you're paying twice the END compared to the point cost paid, then I suppose I can see the reasoning behind it. I suppose that I used EC's like I had primarilly because it put all of the appropriate powers in a tight package that was kept nicely. With this change of thinking, I'm confined to find another method of packaging static powers of a given effect (with or without any form of discount to cost).

[Fitzerific]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

Just for clarification, since I cannot remember and as I am at work, I do not have my mannual, is the restriction against naturally non-END powers reserved for only EC's or all power frameworks? I'm under the impresion that it was just EC's, however as I stated, I don't remember.

[Vondy]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

Just for clarification' date=' since I cannot remember and as I am at work, I do not have my mannual, is the restriction against naturally non-END powers reserved for only EC's or all power frameworks? I'm under the impresion that it was just EC's, however as I stated, I don't remember.[/quote']

 

Its just for ECs. And I'm pretty sure Steve hardcoded the GMs right to make exceptions into the rules. As it is, I find the rule works as a hands-free balancing tool and, as a GM, enforce it with very, very few exceptions.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

ECs are a point savings for having a good, coherent concept. But they have limitations to prevent just anybody from getting that savings (and thus the potential imbalance)

 

With a reduced cost of powers, a character can buy more powers (or bigger ones). With a reduced cost, the main (IMO) limiting factor of the powers in an EC is the Endurance they Cost. Yeah, all your powers may be half-cost (barring the EC pool itself), but can the character pay 48 END a Phase?

 

Allowing natively Zero-END powers in there destroys one of the main limiting factors to abuse (the END Cost). The reason why END-costing powers can be placed in an EC even when bought down to Zero END is that the extra cost of making it Zero END eats up much of the savings that the EC would give, thus limiting the abuse (though it's still possible).

 

Also, to have an EC, you have to explain why when one of the powers is Drained/Suppressed, they *all* are.

 

Remember, EC's are a reward, not a right. See the quote in my sig, also.

 

 

One more thing to add to this...

 

If a power costs END it is visible to 3 sense groups.

A power that costs 0 END by default has Invisible Power Effects (IPE) by default.

[SteveZilla]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

One more thing to add to this...

 

If a power costs END it is visible to 3 sense groups.

A power that costs 0 END by default has Invisible Power Effects (IPE) by default.

 

This being in reference to the power's native END cost (or lack thereof). Buying a power down to Zero END via the Advantage doesn't also grant Invisible Power Effects.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong (like I need to ask ). So a Battlesuit built as OIHID (it had *tons* of backup systems and it almost never gets taken away from the character) could have Armor with the Visible Limitation?

[jtelson]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

ECs are a point savings for having a good, coherent concept. But they have limitations to prevent just anybody from getting that savings (and thus the potential imbalance)

 

With a reduced cost of powers, a character can buy more powers (or bigger ones). With a reduced cost, the main (IMO) limiting factor of the powers in an EC is the Endurance they Cost. Yeah, all your powers may be half-cost (barring the EC pool itself), but can the character pay 48 END a Phase?

 

Allowing natively Zero-END powers in there destroys one of the main limiting factors to abuse (the END Cost). The reason why END-costing powers can be placed in an EC even when bought down to Zero END is that the extra cost of making it Zero END eats up much of the savings that the EC would give, thus limiting the abuse (though it's still possible).

 

Also, to have an EC, you have to explain why when one of the powers is Drained/Suppressed, they *all* are.

 

Remember, EC's are a reward, not a right.

 

But if I buy powers without an EC, I'd still have to pay the End for them. What's really bugging me about this is I know I've argued the other side of it now I just can't remember why.

[L. Marcus]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

This being in reference to the power's native END cost (or lack thereof). Buying a power down to Zero END via the Advantage doesn't also grant Invisible Power Effects.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong (like I need to ask ). So a Battlesuit built as OIHID (it had *tons* of backup systems and it almost never gets taken away from the character) could have Armor with the Visible Limitation?

. . . Wouldn't the battlesuit be the Heroic ID? Then I'd say no, no Visible Lim.

[Trebuchet]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

If the main limiting factor to ballance out characters who use EC's versus those who do not use EC's is that you're paying twice the END compared to the point cost paid' date=' then I suppose I can see the reasoning behind it. I suppose that I used EC's like I had primarilly because it put all of the appropriate powers in a tight package that was kept nicely. With this change of thinking, I'm confined to find another method of packaging static powers of a given effect (with or without any form of discount to cost).[/quote']It's called a Focus. Battlesuits are a traditional form of Focus for Powers and nothing prohibits you from cramming any number of Powers into one. You can even put an EC into a Focus so long as it's Powers all require END and are otherwise legal.

[JmOz]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

A few things, the limit on no END powers is a "Without GM permision" and many GM's will allow them if they fit thematicaly...However trying to cram all your Battlesuit stuff into a EC is not point mongering, it is bad character design, realise you save 1/2 the points of each power after the first of the least expensive power, if you have low costing powers in it you will actualy wind up spending more points

 

Also and you say "especialy" characteristics, Characteristics require you to take No Figured Characteristics (This actualy was in 4th, but was unclear if you took the lim or just suffers it), Characteristic are a much better deal WITH Figured Characterstics than the small amount you save in the EC...

[sbarron]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

This was usually how I used to make all of my super armored heroes' date=' I take an EC where I put all of my static powers such as life support, armor, flash defence, mental defence, power defence, damage resistance, and most importantly characteristics.[/quote']So, you probably save at least 50 points in your build because you use an EC, and it costs you nothing. And then you say...

 

I suppose that I used EC's like I had primarilly because it put all of the appropriate powers in a tight package that was kept nicely...

If I were a player in your group and you gave that as the reason for using an EC that saves you at least 50 points...well, we'd be going to post-segment 12.

[McCoy]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

This is the change I like least about FRED.

 

Since the original Champions, a rough guideline ws that defenses cost half as much as attacks. Most of the inheirently zero-END powers are defenses. By allowing attacks but not defenses into an EC it effectively doubles the cost of defenses in character where an EC is approperate.

 

let's take Rock Guy, a classic brick with the Sx of he is animated stone. Under 4th sdition I could say, "Rock is strong. Rock is tough. Rock has no metabolism. So an Elemental Control with extra STR, nonfocused Armor, and Life Support is approperate for this character." Life support being the least expensive sets the limit on the EC, so full life support, an extra 30 STR, and 10 PD/10 ED armor.

 

Under FRED, the only way to put STR and armor into an EC is to redefine the armor as a zero-end force field, and no way to put in the life support without making puppy-dog eyes at the GM.

[incrdbil]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

This was usually how I used to make all of my super armored heroes, I take an EC where I put all of my static powers such as life support, armor, flash defence, mental defence, power defence, damage resistance, and most importantly characteristics.

 

characteristics, and big custom power slots of every special defense under the son seems too abuseable for an Elemental Control. a lot of GM's excuse non-end costing powers for many slots. I'd stop, for game balance reason, at EC's with large slots that are merely a combination power of a lot of special defenses and enhanced characteristics.

 

way back, this is the horrid broken constructs for power armor I used to see..and shamefully admit, a long time ago, I ran stuff like it

 

13 EC Power Armor OIF (20 point base slots)

13 slot 1 +22 PD Armor, Hardened (41)

13 Slot 2 +22 ED Armor Hardended (41)

13 Slot 3 20" flight (40)

13 Slot 4 Some silly linked power life support, special defenses (40)

13 Slot 5: Boat load of enhanced senses. (40)

13 Slot 6 + 40 STR (40)

13 Slot 7 +20 CON (40)

13 Slot 8 +5 Dex, +2.5 SPD (40)

13 Slot 9 (Extra end or stun ,these days, probably an END Reserve for

maximum munch) (40)

13 Slot 10: A mish mash of PD/ED, recovery, Damage Resistance for

base PD/ED, and hardened on those characteristics

13 slot 11: 40 poitns of power defense (ok, i never did this, but to avoid

the drain of all abilities problem of Ec, this is what any self-respecting

power gamer would do)

 

Slot 15 could be some 40 odd points of computer based skill levels, talents.

 

158 points....and this charcater is incredibly powerful already. You only need to spend about 70-80 points on characteristics, 25-30 on skills. leaving over 97 points to spend on that offensive multipower. (assuming an ) OIF, thats easily a 75 point multipower with 9 ultra slots.

 

 

For this amount of savings, anyone not playing a power armor type just sits back and gets used to paying second fiddle.

 

Other things that just don't belong in an EC. END Reserve.

 

I've dealt with the changes simply by paying a fair cost for the stuff. One easy way to make up for points is not taking the 'no figured characteristics' limitation on your extra characteristics. with the 1/2 limitation of OIF, or even HIDO. this is plenty of cost savings.

[schir1964]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

I don't understand how allowing powers that inherently cost zero end into EC's is unbalancing. Please clarify for me.

Just an additional note.

 

4th Edition Hero (Champions) did have a rule that "Special Powers" may only be placed in an Elemental Control with GM Permission Only. In other words, the default rule was that "Special Powers" were not permitted in Elemental Controls at all.

 

What were the "Special Powers"?

 

It was a category of powers that when examined were all Persistent powers by default.

 

Just A Little Trip In The Wayback Machine (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

I've always permitted two things inside an EC, so long as it was appropriate:

• Armor
  
• Strength
  

These two are typical brick powers; you should be able to build yourself a decent semi-invulnerable 50-80 STR Colossus without having to totally gut yourself. I know some GMs don't permit Strength, but for the brick it's a primary power. Likewise with the Armor; I'd otherwise might as well drop 'Force Field, 0 END' into it instead. (Yeah, I know -- it'd need Persistent, too. Anyhow.)

 

Otherwise, though, it depends on the intended power level of the campaign, at least for me.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

Hi all! I've been skulking about the forums here for some time and just rescently created an account here. I am just starting up with Champions again after a several year hiatus, and I have noticed that the fifth edition has introduced a new rule that I find myself needing to break in order to create my characters the way I had made them in fourth edition.

 

The change is that of a prohibition of powers that naturally cost zero end englobed into an elemental control. This was usually how I used to make all of my super armored heroes, I take an EC where I put all of my static powers such as life support, armor, flash defence, mental defence, power defence, damage resistance, and most importantly characteristics. The more dynamic powers were placed into a MP such as force fields, EB's, RKA's, HKA's, and any other powers that I could safely scale back in order to change tactics in combat.

 

I can get used to the fact that now we cannot use characteristics bought as powers to allow for the calculation of figures characteristics, but I'm feeling constrained to create a house rule allowing non-end powers to be bought into EC's just to follow my previous notions.

 

I'm interested to hear what other people think of the change and how they have adapted from the change.

 

Hi, Fitzerific! Welcome to the community. Your debut inquiry seems to have stirred up a bit of controversy, but we really do want to be helpful and constructive with newcomers. We just tend to get passionate about the HERO System.

 

I feel constrained to point out, as a couple of other posters have already hinted, that the EC construct you describe was already illegal, or at least highly questionable, under Fourth Edition rules as well, without the change to no END-costing Powers. For example:

 

4th Edition Hero (Champions) did have rule that "Special Powers" may only be place in an Elemental Control with GM Permission Only. In other words, the default rule was that "Special Powers" were not permitted in Elemental Controls at all.

 

What were the "Special Powers"?

 

It was a category of powers that when examined were all Persistent powers by default.

 

And the list of Special Powers includes Flash Defense, Mental Defense, and Power Defense (HERO System Fourth Edition p. 56), all of which you specifically list as common elements of your Elemental Controls. P. 112 of the 4E rulebook specifies that "Power Frameworks cannot be used with any of the Special Powers or Talents, except with special permission of the GM."

 

 

Also and you say "especialy" characteristics' date=' Characteristics require you to take No Figured Characteristics (This actualy was in 4th, but was unclear if you took the lim or just suffers it), Characteristic are a much better deal WITH Figured Characterstics than the small amount you save in the EC...[/quote']

 

In furtherance to JmOz's point, "Characteristics bought with the Multipower Power Framework never add to Figured Characteristics. Characteristics can only be bought within other Power Frameworks with special permission from the GM." (4E p. 60 -- emphasis mine)

 

It would appear that the same balance issues that my board colleagues have eloquently expressed were also on the minds of the designers of Fourth Edition when they put in those prohibitions. So to do what you describe doing under the previous system would already have required either house rules, or a very generous GM.

[Alibear]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

The loss to the diplomatic service is our gain, Lord L.

[CTaylor]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

I have noticed that the fifth edition has introduced a new rule that I find myself needing to break in order to create my characters the way I had made them in fourth edition.

 

I ignore that rule for building undead, all undead in my Bestiary have a basic package (life support, automoton powers), it's a tidy way of combining their abilities into one group and makes them slightly cheaper than they would be otherwise. Keep in mind, most of the powers life support gives are extremely rare to be useful to anyone but a player character. Once in a while you will run into one in the bottom of the ocean or what have you, but most of the time it's not going to come up. Thus, while technically they're worth the full points... they aren't to an NPC.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

The "only powers that cost END by default go in an EC" is a poor one in my view. So I can have a 0 END force field, but not 0 END armor? Aid has to be limited to Cost END, but Healing can be advantaged to cost 0 END? Why? How does that make the game more balanced?

 

The fact is that there isn't a unifying theme governing which powers do or do not cost END so basing other restrictions on END costs makes no sense.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

I ignore that rule for building undead' date=' all undead in my Bestiary have a basic package (life support, automoton powers), it's a tidy way of combining their abilities into one group and makes them slightly cheaper than they would be otherwise. Keep in mind, most of the powers life support gives are extremely rare to be useful to anyone but a player character. Once in a while you will run into one in the bottom of the ocean or what have you, but most of the time it's not going to come up. Thus, while technically they're worth the full points... they aren't to an NPC.[/quote']

 

I did something similar for the "super" undead in my DH article on Prof. Muerte, putting Damage Reduction and Life Support into an Elemental Control. It was meant to reflect a common concept of "undeath" for these monsters, that they existed only partly in this world and partly in the realm of Death, so forces and conditions from this world had less impact on them.

 

The beauty of the "GM Permission" loophole that so often appears in the HERO rules, is that it grants leeway to construct unusual, but reasonable and interesting characters and concepts that the default rules might restrict. As long as the GM evaluates that it makes sense and won't be unbalancing to his campaign, rules exceptions can add quite a bit to the game. Heck, there are no few published examples of that in Fifth Edition books, and if Steve Long can bend his own rules, spread some of that sauce on this gander.

 

OTOH, if one were to bend the default rules regularly and on a large scale there's the risk of distorting the built-in balance of the system. If all the players in your group used the same rules exceptions to the same degree, that might still work fine for your campaign; but your characters and other constructs could end up seriously out of whack if you try to export them to someone else's campaign, or to import official published write-ups.

[schir1964]

Re: EC's cannot have non-END powers!!!!

 

The "only powers that cost END by default go in an EC" is a poor one in my view. So I can have a 0 END force field, but not 0 END armor? Aid has to be limited to Cost END, but Healing can be advantaged to cost 0 END? Why? How does that make the game more balanced?

 

The fact is that there isn't a unifying theme governing which powers do or do not cost END so basing other restrictions on END costs makes no sense.

I agree. I don't like inconsistent rules. (Yeah, I know that came as a surprise. (8^D))

 

- Christopher Mullins