How do you visualize combat?

[nexus]

Do you take the dice rolls literally (every attack roll represents one attack, all results are exactly what the say, location rolls, knockback, etc) or do you feel the rolls represent an abstraction of what's going on? A missed attack might be an attack that didn't do any damage or even the attacker failing to see an opening and make an attack at all, low end "knockback" can be someone staggered and stumbling back, momentarily stunned by the force of the blow, things like that.

[Maur]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

A miss is a miss. An attack that does no damage is one that fails to do more damage than the defenses of the target. Someone who is Stunned... well, depends on the NPC and where he was hit. Stun him and hit him in the leg... down he goes. Take out his arm, hope the item in that hand was strapped on. In the chest, well, he might stagger back a step or two, but that doesn't even come close to moving him out of his hex. No knockback or knockdown generally (Heroic games instead of superhero).

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

Unless something happens that somehow just shouldn't, I run HERO combat concretely. A hit is actually a hit, and so forth, as opposed to D&D's abstract system where loss of HP does not necessarily mean physical damage.

[ghost-angel]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

Sometimes It's concrete... sometimes I just visualize the Dice Rolls as the important parts of the combat with lots of other fluff-for-the-camera going on (feints, dodges, weaves, light hits, etc), especially for Martial Artist combats.

 

Missed Rolls might be narrated more dramatically than "you miss" ... missing Mechanically and missing Dramatically can be two different things.

[teh bunneh]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

Usually I run it straight, but for dramatic effect I sometimes play up descriptions. For instance, in a recent combat one of the heroes threw some shiruken at a villain. He hit, but rolled crappy damage (nothing got through, not so much as a point of Stun). I described it as "the villain bats the throwing stars away harmlessly."

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

6 of one, half a dozen of the other.

 

Every attack roll represents an attack. Mechanics stuff like Hit locations are always in that location.

 

However the special effect of the hit, miss or knockback can change around. Misses can go by SFX - if a Martial artist with a high DCV is missed that could be seen as a block (or a dodge). A block could be seen as "taking it on the chin" and taking no damage (great color for ch'i martial artists taking shots from a brick).

[Markdoc]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

Do you take the dice rolls literally (every attack roll represents one attack' date=' all results are exactly what the say, location rolls, knockback, etc) or do you feel the rolls represent an abstraction of what's going on? A missed attack might be an attack that didn't do any damage or even the attacker failing to see an opening and make an attack at all, low end "knockback" can be someone staggered and stumbling back, momentarily stunned by the force of the blow, things like that.[/quote']

 

A bit of both. Hero combat is granular enough that "an attack" is always "an attack" but it could be a single blow, a flurry of blows, or whatever. A "Grab and throw" could just as easily be "legsweep" or "ankletap on a running foe", a block could be an aggressive block or a "lightly deflect the attack aside", but it's still an active defence. In general, again, a hit means some form of contact - and a miss means just that (to simplify things like damage shield, sticky attacks, etc). However, low end knockback could easily be somebody stumbling backwards: they still need a half phase to orient themselves and are at reduced DCV.

 

I tend to assume feints, missed opportunities, etc, are what is occurring between actual attacks.

 

Hero combat is flexible enough that you don't need to abstract it: it's trivial to build special moves, combo attacks and so on. For example, the pirate queen in my current game has a couple of signature fighting moves "kick to the groin" and "kick to the knee" which are both simply triggered HAs (one an attack that automatically takes a low attack and one with double KNB). She fights defensively, and tends to use the attack when her opponent has thrown all his levels into all-out attack - so their DCV is at its lowest - and she has successfully blocked (ensuring an attack next phase - hopefully against a stunned or prone opponent - before they can act). This allows a cinematic "sword block and kick and then stab" maneuver without any handwaving.

 

cheers, Mark

[nexus]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

I abstract some things to make interesting visual or explain odd results and some maneuvers I consider sfx. A "Block" is an active defense that puts your opponent at a disadvantage, not necessarily a parry or something similar. It can be dodging a blow, a defensive move that unbalances your opponent, etc. "Misses" are generally portrayed some sort of defense on the target's part to account for DCV, characters as moving around since exact position in a hex is vague and I like to be flexible on sfx as long as it generally fits the the dice results.

[Alibear]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

Very vague is how I like it. Any special effect can mean just about anything rules-wise as far as I'm concerned if that is what makes most dramatic and common sense.

 

I sound like Steve.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

I play it pretty straight with hit and miss but use lots of dramatic license with knockback or stunning etc. I describe attacks and defense according to the special effects the player has showed and expressed he/she wants. Descriptions are always larger than life.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

Dice exist so that my players don't thnk I'm just reading them a story, and so that I don't have to keep telling them 'in your dreams'.

 

I've played Stop Motion Hero before, where every action is a specific thing, but it is much more fun for 97% of players to have a rolling narrative with as much rules transparency as possible. Rarely do I now hear the words 'OK I hit him'. I'm working from the basis that look and feel is more important than measuring inches to target in many cases so I tend to do a quick layout sketch on a piece of A4 and get people to point out where they want to be and where they want to go to, but I still use minatures and tape measures now and then.

 

Using both methods is quite a useful way to play the game - the quick and dirty style allows rapid progress to be made whereas the minatures and tape measures combat signals a climactic battle.

 

None of that answers your question though. Hopefully this will: ABSTRACTION.

[casualplayer]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

I have my players describe their actions and I translate it into HEROspeak. "I take a swing at him while keeping my guard up" is a Defensive Strike, and so on.

 

Most of my players, and the kind that I prefer, forsake the crunchy for the cinematic and descriptive.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

I have my players describe their actions and I translate it into HEROspeak. "I take a swing at him while keeping my guard up" is a Defensive Strike, and so on.

 

Most of my players, and the kind that I prefer, forsake the crunchy for the cinematic and descriptive.

 

I have my players act out what they want to do in crowded shopping centres dressed in monkey suits.

 

I mean, the games take ages to get through, but,oh boy, is it worth it.

[casualplayer]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

I have my players act out what they want to do in crowded shopping centres dressed in monkey suits.

 

I mean, the games take ages to get through, but,oh boy, is it worth it.

 

LARPer alert! LARPer alert!

[Utech]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

I try to match up my description with the way the player envisions his character.

 

For example, an agent pulls out an automatic weapon and sends a spray of lead at our heroes. I make a to-hit roll and come up with nada. Not a single shot hits. I might say to...

 

...Brick Man, "The five slugs smack into your chest like gnats. There's not a scratch on you. Still, you're aware that a lucky shot might really cause you harm. You're not invulnerable. Not quite."

...Speedster Man, "The five slugs zip toward you faster than any human eye can follow. But you're so much more than human. Totally prepared for the barrage, you thread your way through them as easily as a New York cabbie heading uptown. Still, you're aware that even New York cabbies have accidents. If you somehow lost your concentration -- or your footing -- this might not be so easy."

...Mentalist Man, "Instinctively, you step into his thoughts. See what he sees. Know where he's shooting. And you make sure you aren't there. All five slugs zip past you. Still, you're aware that you were acing in instinct. You might not step into his mind so thoroughly next time. Or he might not be aiming quite where he thinks he is..."

...Energy Projector Man, "He sends five shots in your direction. Like many people, you instinctively raise your arm to shield yourself. Unlike many people, you're able to project waves of plasma. Instinct takes over and the blast of high energy meets the bullets before they can find you. The hot lead gets even hotter. Three melt outright. The flight path of the other two is so distorted that they never pass within a meter of you. Still, you know that the accidental discharge of plasma was lucky. You might not manage it again. Or you might not get all those bullets..."

 

And so on and so forth.

 

Of course you can have too much of a good thing. So I have no problem with saying, "He swings at you, but misses by a mile" as well.

 

What's important to me is making sure that each character gets to shine in the way each player intended.

[Tech]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

I do it both ways, depending on if it adds flare, what the episode's like, etc etc etc. However, in a general way, a hit is a hit is a hit. I like to occasionally tell players the damage that's occuring when they miss.

[Egyptoid]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

when I visualize combat, I always see

Enforcer84 passed out GMO

face down on the concrete,

with legions of Viper Agents hosing him down

with automatic plasma rifles.

oh wait...

[Katherine]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

I think this is a good thread to bring this up. Our group has been using Hero System/Champions for a little while now and overall we like it. We came to it from Storyteller, Cyberpunk 2020 and similar games. But there are two people that are having a big issue with one part of the system: Defensive Combat Value. They don't feel it's realistic or even fits most cinematic battles especially when guns come into play. I'm not sure how to explain or defend it really.

 

For instance, they complain that this scene

 

 

From V for Vendetta couldn't happen in Hero since if V was as agile as he seemed he'd just dodge all the bullets.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

I think this is a good thread to bring this up. Our group has been using Hero System/Champions for a little while now and overall we like it. We came to it from Storyteller, Cyberpunk 2020 and similar games. But there are two people that are having a big issue with one part of the system: Defensive Combat Value. They don't feel it's realistic or even fits most cinematic battles especially when guns come into play. I'm not sure how to explain or defend it really.

 

For instance, they complain that this scene

 

 

From V for Vendetta couldn't happen in Hero since if V was as agile as he seemed he'd just dodge all the bullets.

 

That depends on how he's built. If he has some OCV levels with thrown weapons, a whole lot of levels with melee combat, and possibly an Area Effect advantage with his knives, he could do all that without an incredibly high DCV against the firearms.

[casualplayer]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

I think this is a good thread to bring this up. Our group has been using Hero System/Champions for a little while now and overall we like it. We came to it from Storyteller, Cyberpunk 2020 and similar games. But there are two people that are having a big issue with one part of the system: Defensive Combat Value. They don't feel it's realistic or even fits most cinematic battles especially when guns come into play. I'm not sure how to explain or defend it really.

 

For instance, they complain that this scene

 

 

From V for Vendetta couldn't happen in Hero since if V was as agile as he seemed he'd just dodge all the bullets.

 

Unless he voluntarily chose not to dodge all the bullets (Psych Lim: Slave to the Theatric.) Besides, levels in OCV with Knives don't help much for getting out of the way of bullets.

 

What I saw was a character shifting all of his levels into OCV, performing a Block/Missile Deflect that didn't actually look like a stereotypical Block/Missile Deflect and then launching a series of Multiple Power Attacks or possibly a power construct like HKA Area Effect: Selective. While V clearly has greater than base 2 SPD, this wasn't an example of him having several multiples of the Fingermens' SPD.

[Shaft]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

Unless he voluntarily chose not to dodge all the bullets (Psych Lim: Slave to the Theatric.) Besides, levels in OCV with Knives don't help much for getting out of the way of bullets.

 

What I saw was a character shifting all of his levels into OCV, performing a Block/Missile Deflect that didn't actually look like a stereotypical Block/Missile Deflect and then launching a series of Multiple Power Attacks or possibly a power construct like HKA Area Effect: Selective. While V clearly has greater than base 2 SPD, this wasn't an example of him having several multiples of the Fingermens' SPD.

 

I would have built the fight as follows:

 

V has DEX 23 at least (based DCV of 8) and SPD 5 vs the Fingermen's DEX 14 (at best) and SPD 3. He probably has multiple combat levels and uses some of them defensively at all times in that scene. He probably also has levels that counter his penalties for called shots allowing him to target the head and vitals every time.

 

He also has Rapid Attack ranged and HtH skills and the Two Weapon Fighting (Ranged and HtH) skills (allowing him to sweep/snap fire every time he attacks with less penalties.

 

It's reasonable to assume that he has a naked 2 or 3 round autofire naked advantage with his knife throwing and he has the autofire skills to use them most effectively. This combines with the Rapid Attack and Two Weapons skills to minimise his OCV and DCV penalties.

 

After he kills the first 3 guys, combat stops while V and Creedy exchange words.

 

He delays his phase 12 to let the finger men use their action to open up on him (assume they all snap fired on him) and uses a Power such as Aid to Stun combined with his phase 12 recovery. He then presence attacks (Verbal component is "My turn"; displays powers by surviving the onslaught of bullets) them (lowering their DCVs) to mess with their upcoming phase 4 actions. On phase 3 he went into full OCV mode to kill as many as he can. On phase 4 the Fingermen lose their action recovering from the Presence attack, but he still kills more of them on phase 5. On phase 8, he goes first, and any surviving Fingermen get another round of shots off at him (that miss). By the time phase 10 ends, he has killed the last of the Fingermen. Creedy is probably only SPD 2. V delays to let Creedy fire at him on 12, takes the Recovery, uses his delayed 12 to grab Creedy and hoist him against the wall. He then spends 3 and 5 choking him to death.

 

V's Aid power fades every turn, so the extra Stun he got starts dropping every 12 seconds even as combat has ended. And he is still bleeding from the barrage he took at first. His armor may have reduced the damage to 1 or 2 pips per shot that struck him, but only his chest/vitals were armored. If he took 30 rounds, and 5 of them did 1 point of damage, he is still in bad shape, health wise, even if he has 20 BODY or so if bleeding rules are being used...

 

Overall he's still quite the killing machine...

[薔薇語]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

I think this is a good thread to bring this up. Our group has been using Hero System/Champions for a little while now and overall we like it. We came to it from Storyteller, Cyberpunk 2020 and similar games. But there are two people that are having a big issue with one part of the system: Defensive Combat Value. They don't feel it's realistic or even fits most cinematic battles especially when guns come into play. I'm not sure how to explain or defend it really.

 

For instance, they complain that this scene

 

 

From V for Vendetta couldn't happen in Hero since if V was as agile as he seemed he'd just dodge all the bullets.

 

Looks to me like the player told the GM his plan and explained to him the general cinematic display he wanted for his characters last moments alive. If I recall the movie right, V dies shortly after this. This kind of cinematic display can be done in any game system for any genre, when a player is done with a specific character he and the GM should arrange a proper and suiting ending scene.

 

It seemed to me, to be all storyline driven for the scene rather than game.

 

Also I LOVE detailed scenes where the GM takes the time to explain even the most seemingly trivial things that add to the moment. "as you look upon the knight riding towards you, armor smugged with dirt, the brilliant glow from the burning mill lights this star drench night on fire. It Flutters, as the breeze kisses your swet covered neck wisking away the terror of what just passed." This by no means is needed for every moment but I find it very mood setting. Alas I have only had the pleasure of GMing scenes like this and only then did one of my players take it upon themselves to help in creating the mood.

 

hmm Now I want to GM again...Darn you nexus...

 

La Rose,

 

PS. In answer to nexus's orginal post. I love the dramatic and prefer that all motions be with a little detail explained by players. Then roll effect, and depending on the roll it is done as the player says, barring a failure, a great failure, or great success.

[Maur]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

This doesn't look like a character with superhuman dex. This looks like a character with SPD for more attacks only (e.g. he doesn't seem to get extra movement out of it). He chose to just stand there and take it assuming that the goons were going to teamwork and take the -3 OCV penalty to make all shots hit his torso (which he had armored with resistant defenses). The rest of the fight was just him using his high speed and sweep/autofiring his knives at various opponents with maybe an Aid to boost his body and keep himself from dying temporarily. Then the aid faded and down went his body...

[nexus]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

I think Katherine's problem isn't the mechanics behind the scene but with DCV specifically that some people in her group are arguing that it's unrealistic for a person to have the ability to "evade" things like bullets. The example scene, for example, in Hero depending on how you wrote him up, V could have theoretically "dodged" those shots, at least some of them. (IOW: His DCV caused them to miss for whatever reason/sfx).

 

Judging from the games they usually play, gunfire often can't be evaded by normal beings. Options are limited to cover, falling prone or other "realistic" counter measures and that's causing some hang ups with some of her group.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: How do you visualize combat?

 

That's another way to look at her post, I suppose.

 

All I have to say on that matter is that a moving target is harder to hit than a stationary one, and if you don't want characters coming off as almost unshootable, don't build them with that much DCV vs firearms.

 

Although, it's not as if Storyteller or Cyberpunk 2020 didn't have people who were able to superheroically dodge bullets either. The Cyberpunk combat rules are pretty realistic and gritty, and yet Solos get a bonus to their defense that makes them hard to shoot.

 

Most people enjoy having adventurous games, and not uber-realistic ones that require them to constantly make new characters. If these guys do like uber-realism, then Hero can accommodate that, assuming they build their characters right.