Machine Class of Minds

[Qelan]

I am having a bit of trouble coming up with some real world examples of equipment that would be affected by Mind Powers – Machine Class of Minds.

 

Computers would be obvious, most vehicles have computers in them so you could communicate and or control some vehicles in a limited fashion (turn on/off, read log, input error codes, etc…) after these examples my brain starts to smoke.

 

Hmm, BTW, to input an error code into computer would that be mental illusions or mind control? I assume mental illusion but I could be wrong.

 

Any assistance would be appreciated.

[caris]

Re: Machine Class of Minds

 

I am having a bit of trouble coming up with some real world examples of equipment that would be affected by Mind Powers – Machine Class of Minds.

 

Computers would be obvious, most vehicles have computers in them so you could communicate and or control some vehicles in a limited fashion (turn on/off, read log, input error codes, etc…) after these examples my brain starts to smoke.

 

Hmm, BTW, to input an error code into computer would that be mental illusions or mind control? I assume mental illusion but I could be wrong.

 

Any assistance would be appreciated.

 

Well, a lot depends on how you conceptualize the powers working. I can see justifications that wouldn't require computers.

 

Even limiting yourself to computers, consider the number of devices that have what basically dedicated computers: digital cell phones, mp3 players, DVRs, digital thermostats, digital watches, digital cameras, etc. Think about devices that probably have computer chips in them. I believe that my microwave, television, bathroom scale, kitchen scale, instant read thermometer all have computer chips in them. Welcome to the digital age.

 

Well, we see that there is a lot of things that you could use mental powers on. Of course how usefull it is use them on my bathroom scale is very debatable. On the other hand, cell phones could be useful to read, control or fool.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Machine Class of Minds

 

Anything with a computer chip.

 

Add things like cars, airplanes, *any modern vehicle* to that list above.

[Edsel]

Re: Machine Class of Minds

 

This is the ultimate solution to programming your DVR.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Machine Class of Minds

 

This is an issue that cries out for expansion. I prefer the elimination of Classes of Mind, and a "cyberpathy" approach to mental powers where any machine is affected by mental powers purchased as cyberpathy. It would then act against a computer's INT, and the cyberpath would easily control anything with a computer chip.

[Comic]

Re: Machine Class of Minds

 

I'd include any optical or electromechanical control or sensor in 'machine class of minds', too, depending on special effects.

 

Thermostats, motion detectors, smoke alarms, carbon monoxide alerts, closed-circuit tv cameras, the visual interfaces and the movement actuators in powered armour, the pacemaker in a DNPC's chest or the 100-year-old pocketwatch in his breast pocket, or Big Ben.

[Qelan]

Re: Machine Class of Minds

 

Very intersting stuff. So, this should mean only electrically powered machine class of minds would be a limitation, might be only worth +0 or +1/4 but it would be a limitation?

[caris]

Re: Machine Class of Minds

 

Very intersting stuff. So' date=' this should mean only electrically powered machine class of minds would be a limitation, might be only worth +0 or +1/4 but it would be a limitation?[/quote']

 

Depends on the campaign, as always. Many games only allow computers to be affected by the machine class of minds, given that all but the rarest of computers work off electricity (I seem to remember reading about a primitive computer that ran off of pure mechanical energy), as a default it wouldn't be worth even noting on the build. If the campaign was such that even a tricycle could be influenced with Mental Powers using the machine class of mind, than a limitation might be worth while.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Machine Class of Minds

 

I would generally rule that in order to have a "mind" for purposes of Classes of Mind, an object has to have an INT or EGO score. Objects without either of these don't have a mind.

 

If you wanted to control a tricycle (or other object without an INT or EGO score), you'd need to use Telekinesis or some other Power.

[Marcus Impudite]

Re: Machine Class of Minds

 

Depending on special effects, just about anything goes. These days cars have onboard minicomputers to regulate engine functions etc.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Machine Class of Minds

 

I'd include any optical or electromechanical control or sensor in 'machine class of minds', too, depending on special effects.

 

Thermostats, motion detectors, smoke alarms, carbon monoxide alerts, closed-circuit tv cameras, the visual interfaces and the movement actuators in powered armour, the pacemaker in a DNPC's chest or the 100-year-old pocketwatch in his breast pocket, or Big Ben.

 

...although nothing about the machine class of minds gives you any special ability to see through stuff, so the pacemaker in the DNPC's chest is safe unless you have some sort of N-Ray vision to target it with.

 

Also I'd probably be seeing the 100 year old pocket watch as an automaton and so immune to mental powers. Ditto Big Ben (although it almost certainly now has some sort of computer attached to it for monitoring and such, sot hat would be vulnerable).

 

Good list though

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Machine Class of Minds

 

Well' date=' we see that there is a lot of things that you could use mental powers on. Of course how usefull it is use them on my bathroom scale is very debatable. [/quote']

 

Sending a message on the digital readout could eb useful way to get messages to someone...

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Machine Class of Minds

 

Also I'd probably be seeing the 100 year old pocket watch as an automaton and so immune to mental powers. Ditto Big Ben (although it almost certainly now has some sort of computer attached to it for monitoring and such, sot hat would be vulnerable).

 

I can categorically tell you that there is no computer attached to Big Ben...the bell and associated clockwork are entirely non-digital.

 

 

Doc

[jaws]

Re: Machine Class of Minds

 

Well' date=' we see that there is a lot of things that you could use mental powers on. Of course how usefull it is use them on my bathroom scale is very debatable. On the other hand, cell phones could be useful to read, control or fool.[/quote']

 

Have your hated rival go bulemic by playing with his electronic scale to make them think they are always to fat.

 

 

I'd include any optical or electromechanical control or sensor in 'machine class of minds', too, depending on special effects.

 

Thermostats, motion detectors, smoke alarms, carbon monoxide alerts, closed-circuit tv cameras, the visual interfaces and the movement actuators in powered armour, the pacemaker in a DNPC's chest or the 100-year-old pocketwatch in his breast pocket, or Big Ben.

 

Mechanical is a bit to much though, no "mind", for a mind I would require some kind of digital processing or programing as a minimum.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Machine Class of Minds

 

"Worlds most powerful cyberpath... and I still can't get my VCR to stop blinking 12:00 at me. . ."

[caris]

Re: Machine Class of Minds

 

Have your hated rival go bulemic by playing with his electronic scale to make them think they are always to fat.

 

I'm talking about my bathroom scale. I haven't been on the thing in months.

 

Mechanical is a bit to much though' date=' no "mind", for a mind I would require some kind of digital processing or programing as a minimum.[/quote']

 

Well, in a setting/campaign/game where machine class included the mechanical it would be assumed that those machines had something that was functionally a "mind" and therefore would be warrant some combination of INT and EGO (possibly other stats, too).

[Comic]

Re: Machine Class of Minds

 

The issue with sensors and controls is that they are corelatives of biological inputs and outputs to the human brain.

 

If one Mind Control is strictly command of muscles, tissues or the like -- a fairly frequent group of special effect -- then why shouldn't machine class Mind Control allow this, too?

 

If one Mental Illusions is manipulation of images in the eyes or ears or parts of the brain, rather than the whole brain itself or the abstract intangible mind without physical connection, then why not for machine class Mental Illusion?

 

Arguably these two effects could be constructed as Telekinesis and Images with enough limitations (Physical Manifestation: appropriate machine), but depending on their spfx and intended usefulness and scope, it could be kludgy to do it that way.

 

So where the sensor or actuator itself is strictly a mindless automaton with no connection to a larger, more complex machine (group approximating the complexity of a 'mind'), then by special effect I'd go with Tk/Images.

 

Where the possessor of the power is feeding energy to the machine and determining the machine's strength by their own power, not the machine's, that would definitely be Tk. Likewise if an ordinary cell phone were made to project perfect lifesize holographic illusions of the hero, that'd be Images. Where the device itself limits the scope of what could be done, I'd be more likely to consider these outputs the result of tampering with the machine's mind.

 

Where the devices are interconnected enough to approximate the complexity of a mind (linguistic analysis suggests a minimum of 30 Turing machines, say a network with 30 active CPUs)... I might consider Mind Control/Mental Illusions.

 

A television network, a security grid for a large installation, the traffic controls of a major metropolitan center.. I'd definitely base the effects on mental powers.

 

On another note, I'm not terribly convinced limiting Machine Class of minds to digital computers is correct. Analogue computers have a long and rich history, and comprise the majority of computing devices. Brown-box computing, quantum computing, molecular and some optical computer designs are nondigital. I'm not going to exclude very complex automata that overshoot the mark of what automata do and wander into 'intelligence' because they aren't stamped 'Intel Inside'.

 

For such reasons, any magically enhanced, haunted-but-still-mechanical, mythic, or significant mechanisms might qualify for Mind Control, because their status is more than merely automaton.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Machine Class of Minds

 

Next we should discuss letting players take the Machine Class of mind...

[Egyptoid]

Re: Baron Karza Class of Minds

 

On another note' date=' I'm not terribly convinced limiting Machine Class of minds to digital computers is correct. Analogue computers have a long and rich history, and comprise the majority of computing devices. Brown-box computing, quantum computing, molecular and some optical computer designs are nondigital. I'm not going to exclude very complex automata that overshoot the mark of what automata do and wander into 'intelligence' because they aren't stamped 'Intel Inside'. [/quote']

 

His Excellency agrees with you...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Machine Class of Minds

 

One thing you can't get stuff to do with mind control/telepathy/mental illusions is anything it can't normally do. This is so basic that it often gets forgotten. You can't, for instance, get a lamp to turn on if it requires a switch to be..er..switched. Lamps can not move their own switches. TK or transform should be used for that kind of thing.

 

Also you have to decide (and this is a right royal pain) what counts as having an EGO for mental powers against the machine class. I'd personally think that there were very few if any real world computers today that have an EGO, and if they don't have an EGO then they are not susceptible to mental powers, however you dress them up - and we are back to transform or TK.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Machine Class of Minds

 

One thing you can't get stuff to do with mind control/telepathy/mental illusions is anything it can't normally do. This is so basic that it often gets forgotten. You can't, for instance, get a lamp to turn on if it requires a switch to be..er..switched. Lamps can not move their own switches. TK or transform should be used for that kind of thing.

 

Also you have to decide (and this is a right royal pain) what counts as having an EGO for mental powers against the machine class. I'd personally think that there were very few if any real world computers today that have an EGO, and if they don't have an EGO then they are not susceptible to mental powers, however you dress them up - and we are back to transform or TK.

 

I'd say if they have an INT, they have a "mind" of sorts... hence the Machine Class of Minds.

 

If you were doing all Mental Powers with detects, for Telepathy you could have Detect Thoughts, or Detect Human Class Thoughts, or Detect Animal Class Thoughts. For Cyberpathy you could use Detect Data.

 

To be honest I've actually considered (for my 6e Mental Powers rewrite project) doing Mind Control as TK. While I don't like it, I'm having a hard time figuring out why not to use it.

[Qelan]

Re: Machine Class of Minds

 

Next we should discuss letting players take the Machine Class of mind...

 

The more this topic is analyzed I start seeing the merit of your statement.

 

Mind Powers – Machine Class of Minds does seem to require a bit of handwavium or logic leaps but in the end as long as you end up with a definable power that performs with repeatable and consistent results then that’s all that really matters. But then that’s the real trick in character design.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Machine Class of Minds

 

I'd say if they have an INT, they have a "mind" of sorts... hence the Machine Class of Minds.

 

If you were doing all Mental Powers with detects, for Telepathy you could have Detect Thoughts, or Detect Human Class Thoughts, or Detect Animal Class Thoughts. For Cyberpathy you could use Detect Data.

 

To be honest I've actually considered (for my 6e Mental Powers rewrite project) doing Mind Control as TK. While I don't like it, I'm having a hard time figuring out why not to use it.

 

Whilst I agree that to make a mental machine class power worth the points, a GM has to be a bit generous, technically unless the target has an EGO they cannot be targeted. You could substitute INT for EGO, but presumably you can have machine automatons and they should be immune to mental powers.

 

The Ultimate Energy Blaster mentions using TK as a form of mind control (or, more accurately, Body control, or Body Puppetry). There should be a power that enables you to, for instance, take over the controls of a car and make it do what you want. TK seems to fit the bill here, but needs quite a complex build - whilst TK itself is indirect, the person ostensibly controlling the car would need some sort of special sense to actually be able to turn teh wheel etc (assuming they are not in the car). it is an interesting area and could do with a lot more exploration.

[The Main Man]

Re: Machine Class of Minds

 

Anything with a computer chip.

 

Add things like cars, airplanes, *any modern vehicle* to that list above.

 

Seconded.

 

If a player is a robot in a campaign, they may only be machine class if they roleplay it; they can only perform tasks that they are programmed to do, and are intensely naive; basically little to no emotional recognition.

 

They basically have a limited personality, but on the other hand they are a brutal surprise to any mentalist with an attitude (unless they are cyberkinetic of course).

 

I have had only one player successfully accomplish this, and the character is now a mainstay in the roster.

[Utech]

Re: Machine Class of Minds

 

The Ultimate Energy Blaster mentions using TK as a form of mind control (or' date=' more accurately, Body control, or Body Puppetry). There should be a power that enables you to, for instance, take over the controls of a car and make it do what you want. TK seems to fit the bill here, but needs quite a complex build - whilst TK itself is indirect, the person ostensibly controlling the car would need some sort of special sense to actually be able to turn teh wheel etc (assuming they are not in the car). it is an interesting area and could do with a lot more exploration.[/quote']

 

There was actually an official Power similar to this. I think it was in Champions III.

 

I think a return to that Power (or building a new one) would be a good idea. You might call it "Animation" -- the item in question gains a certain amount of mobility and the will to move, but the animator generally dominates (Mind Controls?) the animated item.