We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

[JmOz]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

Totally agreed, but you also have to trust your players.

 

In most fantasy games I have run, I only allowed human player characters. THere was just not enough RP experience among most of my players to trust that they could play a different species/race without reverting to "short, drunk humans" and "pointy eared conservationist humans" for dwarves and elves.

 

for my next FH game I am planning on only allowing humans and 1/2 breeds (Human/demi-human). and only 2 half breeds

[Curufea]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

Let's say a buddy (who's a decent GM) says he's going to start up a new Fantasy Hero campaign. How important is it to you that his fantasy world has the standard elves-dwarves-orcs assortment of fantasy races? Or to flip it around' date=' how disappointed are you if you hear it's not going to have the standard elves-dwarves-orcs lineup? [/quote']

 

I would rejoice at any game not being yet another D&D clone. It means the creator actually is using their imagination - rare and laudable.

 

How do you feel about game worlds that feature more or less the standard assortment of races but give them different names and/or change them in generally not terribly significant ways?

 

It's a start. Whilst it has been mentioned before, I will again - the purpose of stereotypes and common knowledge over originality - is to enable several people to be familiar with a setting. However, I've always been in favour of occasionally asking players to learn - it is a far less demanding skill than the GM's creation of the setting and is the least they can do.

 

How do you feel if the world has a mix of standard and more-like-Star-Wars-aliens races? Is it weird having the cliche next to the extremely different/unusual?

 

Strangely enough, fantasy roleplayers often seem blind to the first word in their description. When I think fantasy, I don't think "Hollywood Middleages".

You don't want too many though unless you actually do want players to dissociate with the setting and have difficulty empathising.

 

How do you feel about fantasy game worlds that have a slate of non-human races that are all very unusual and non-standard?

 

I still have difficulty equating "standard" with "fantasy". Why is standard a desirable trait again?

 

I know that the politically gamer correct answer is that what's important is how good the campaign is, building interesting characters, how good a job the GM does of making the world come to life, etc., etc. And of course, that's all true. But all of that aside, it's okay to say how you really feel. Let it out! If you have to have halflings, admit it. If it kind of bothers you when the GM gets too creative with his fantasy races, that's okay. If you hate the cliches and will hurl if you see one more half-orc, we want you to share!

 

There are two things I hate - racists, and hobbits.

[Markdoc]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

The problem I have with the standard races is that too often, they become stereotypes. Even if the GM tries to tweak the races, it's hard to fight against the vast mass of counter-propaganda from mainstream sources. Runequest suffered from this in an extreme. They had dwarves - well, sort of dwarves, actually they are called Mostali and served the world engine, etc. But in real life, nine times out of ten (or more), they were just dwarves. If I had a bolg for every Mostali who acted exactly like he'd staggered straight out of a Warhammer campaign, I'd be a rich troll.

 

There's nothing really wrong with that - our current D20 game has 2/3rds non-humans in the party, and I'm having fun, but in that case the nonhumans are an integral part of the background, and the sorce of the stereotype.

 

So as a GM, I don't really want to try and fight the players' preconceptions: if I were to use elves, dwarve, orcs, etc, I'd use 'em straight up.

 

cheers, Mark

[JmOz]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

I had an idea for Elves in my next fantasy campeign last night, a nice twist

 

Having five types

 

High

Wood

Winged

Fire

and Sea

 

Basicaly have elves be mortal elementals, right now

[Shadowsoul]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

You might consider giving the different types of Elf different names in order to help players get into the spirit of playing them differently. E.g. Sidhe for Wood Elves or Djinn for Fire Elves.

[DusterBoy]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

If I was to run a fantasy campaign with the standards, my elves would live in the mortal and fairy worlds simultaneously, which would account for their immortality and their supernatural abilities. Their lack of body hair would stem from the fact they are not human, or even really animal. Nor would they have huge pointed ears or slanted eyes or long blonde hair (or at least, not all of them).

 

They would also be completely amoral, totally unconcerned with human concepts of good and evil. All they really want to do is have a good time. It's just that sometimes, mortals get caught up in their fun and bad stuff happens.

 

'Cos originally elves were the bad guys, yes? Robbing cradles, kidnapping people, conning us into worshipping them, keeping us superstitious and afraid. They were not good people to know.

[Old Man]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

I still have difficulty equating "standard" with "fantasy". Why is standard a desirable trait again?

 

To lower the campaign learning curve for new players. It's much easier to tell a prospective player "you can play a high elf, a wood elf, a dwarf or a hobbit" than it is to explain the peculiar cosmology and physiognomy that drives a five-limbed Qarzha'ni to seek the rarest pebbles for his Dowry of War.

[Curufea]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

It's desirable with new players, certainly - but surely that is a rare event? Most players are long-term.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

I'm OK with 'standard' fantasy races.

 

I'm OK with modifying them.

 

I'm OK with 'new and exciting!' races, if they fit.

 

I'm OK with human-only (and am currently running a game w/out elves, etc.).

 

Don't have a big problem with them, don't have a problem without them.

[Old Man]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

I wouldn't have a problem with certain races except that they tend to attract the worst kinds of munchkin for some reason. Right, Legolas?

[JmOz]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

Drist,,,

[Captain Obvious]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

I can take or leave the standard races, but I do get kind of wary when someone says something like "no elves!" I have to wonder what the background is to such a vehement restriction....

[Shadowsoul]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

I did actually create a thread based around compiling unusual races or twists on old ones. I may have to revive it since I have a few more ideas these days.

[Chris-M]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

I did actually create a thread based around compiling unusual races or twists on old ones. I may have to revive it since I have a few more ideas these days.

 

Please do!

 

I did want to mention that while I like games with nonhuman races, I think human-only campaigns can be a lot of fun too (sadly, I've never gotten to play in one). I do think human-only, from what I've seen, tends to push GMs in the direction of thinking things through a little more about making things fun, different, and interesting for the players since they don't have the ol' multi-race mix to fall back on.

[Shadowsoul]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

Please do!

 

I did want to mention that while I like games with nonhuman races, I think human-only campaigns can be a lot of fun too (sadly, I've never gotten to play in one). I do think human-only, from what I've seen, tends to push GMs in the direction of thinking things through a little more about making things fun, different, and interesting for the players since they don't have the ol' multi-race mix to fall back on.

 

Heh, that's all the encouragement I need.

 

It is actually possible to combine these two ideas. As in the View from a Mirror series and it's successor the Well of Echoes. Different races of humanity that were distinct enough to count as D&D sub-races basically.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_View_from_the_Mirror

 

I didn't actually get into the series but many people do seem fond of it.

 

Of course 'racial characteristics' can turn up in the older 'all-human' fantasies as well. The original Conan stories are full of them, Zamorians are thieves, Cimmerians are surly barbarians and Stygians are evil.

 

Ultimately I think it's fun to play around with our ideas about these races. Sometimes this can lead to silliness and weirdness 'for the sake of weirdness' but it can be interesting as well.

 

I have thought about a setting in which Elves are simply a pleasing form assumed by merciless demonic invaders while Orcs are an honourable race with a medieval European style society. Humans are strange individualists who drift through life trying different things and rarely settling on a single career path or trade. Dwarves are a subrace of Humans with a greater proficiency for magic. Whether it would work or not I don't know, but it's fun to experiment.

[CTaylor]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

I prefer a more classic fantasy setting, I find that the more people tinker with the classic faerie tale setting (unless they are relying on another culture's version of faerie tales), the less fantasy it ends up seeming.

 

Empire of the Petal Throne, for example, works because while it is atypical fantasy it is based on fantasy from another culture, with a coherent and traditional build over centuries. A fantasy based on Native American cultures or even Amercian tall tales would work as well.

 

Especially when people add in technology, that basically wrecks the whole feel for me. Almost every FRPG computer game has to jam tech in with fantasy as if that's somehow innovative and cool. It got old back in the 1970s with the movie Wizards.

[Chris-M]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

Especially when they add in technology' date=' that basically wrecks the whole feel for me.[/quote']

 

Yeah, I know what you mean. I don't mind technology so much if we're talking about a mixed-genre situation that achieves its own level of unique appeal. For example, I like Planetary Romance and Science Fantasy just fine, and I could conceivably get into a Post-Apocalyptic story or game, but all of those are strong instances of something else where fantasy is the icing on the cake, as it were.

 

What I don't like are half-hearted kind of mish-mashes of fantasy and something else, where technology is an aspect of the "something else," or standard fantasy where too much technology is tacked on for "flavor" or something. Just my take -- as always, YMMV.

[Enforcer84]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

I decided to nix the "Basics" and use jrpg (Japanese RPG -think Breath of Fire, Final Fantasy, Suikoden, etc) beast men. Everything basically came from human stock, and the verious demi-humans range in appearance from anthropomorphic animals like IronClaw/Jade Claw (or Kung Fu Panda) to Cat-Girl style Humans with tails and pointed ears; and that's within each race.

 

But I've got a shot creators attention span. My races have already overthrown me.

[ghost-angel]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

Or worse, somebody who is disruptive and attention grabbing. In one of my very old groups, we had a player that modeled his style of play on his perceptions of what kender would do. In many ways he played the style brilliantly; too brilliantly.

 

We'd change up DMs (AD&D 2nd) and his buddy would provide him with items like a wand of wonder or similar things. The player, in turn, would use these in the single most disruptive manner possible. It effectively prohibited any real role-playing, by redirecting the focus away from whomever had center spotlight. It even ruined combat because more often than not, something bad or distracting would happen to fellow party members.

 

We hates kenders because of Him. I cannot even lower my blinders to give another player a fair shake at playing a kender. My impression of them will always be colored by the grotesque misuse of that one (now long gone) player. And yes, it is the player's fault. Doesn't change my perception of kender in any way.

 

I could probably play a Kender in a way to change your mind about them.

 

You know, if I could get over my own hatred of the little moving targets.

[Old Man]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

I'm sure you could, but what are you going to do about the fifty zillion munchkins who run them as greedy selfish kleptomaniac assassin thieves? Especially the ones who want to run half-kender half-dark elf crossbreeds.

[Vulcan]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

GM: "Wait a minute. You want to play a half-Kender, half-Drow assassin?

 

Player: "Yeah."

 

GM: "Moron. Before asking to play a kender, try reading about them and figuring out their mentality first..."

[Blue Jogger]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

You know, I just realized the reason I killed off all the pure-breed Elves in my world probably was heavily influenced by one or two players who played super-annoying snooty, noble Elves back in the early college days.

 

It was so cathartic, and I didn't know why.

[Zeropoint]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

Everything I've heard about Kender, including information from people who have played them, makes it sound like they are an excuse for the Kender player to annoy the other players as much as possible and then claim, "hey, don't blame me, I'm just roleplaying my character."

 

Again, based on what I've heard, I would decline to play in a campaign where anyone was playing a Kender.

 

Either that, or I'd play a wizard, and do my best to come up with a spell that would have really, really bad consequences for anyone who removed the enchanted items from my person.

 

"Huh. My cloth-of-lead coin purse is completely empty. Looks like someone stole all my nice shiny plutonium pieces."

[JmOz]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

I was in a Dragonlance campeign with a kender player, my Minotaur Priest (Of Kith-Jolith) and him were pretty much a comedy Duo with me as the strait-man...Fun game, but the PLAYERS had to be willing to laugh at the misfortune of there characters for it to work, if we had not been we would have been pissed at Jeremy (the kender player) many many times

[Vulcan]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

There is that. With a kender in the game, everyone has to keep a sense of humor.

 

The fun one I had in a game was really good at picking pockets. She never stole from the party, but the characters kept finding various odds and ends she stashed in their pockets so she wouldn't have to carry them (being small and of limited carrying capacity).