What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

[Markdoc]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

And the rules lawyers would go along with it. After all' date=' half the fun was creating characters and finding new ways to exploit the rules. We all created far more characters than we ever played, often finding loopholes and displaying them to the other guys--and then agreeing that, no, that's not allowable in any of our games. Amusing. Clever. Fiendish, even--but not going to pass muster.[/quote']

 

We actually did this in an organized way. Make up any character you like, as long as it's rules legal, no GM's permission stuff and then set them up on a board and let them have at each other for a daylong slugfest.

 

It was a great way to learn/test the rules. Among many, many, other concepts, we got the tunnelling mindcontrolling slug with N-ray vision, before it became an internet meme, the killer robot with a flamethrower, the tiny Pixie with a really huge gun, the guy with extradimensional movement useable against others, the guy with N-ray vision and a multipower of indirect attacks, the little old granny with a baby carriage full of killer robots and the knight with a sword that would cut through anything.

 

It was helluva fun. I especially remember fondly the game where we had a village set up with a church in the middle of it. No less than 4 people thought it would be fun to start in the church tower. So the game starts with the GM asking these guys what their actions are and then informing the rest of the players "OK, first phase. The church tower explodes in a giant fireball. Smoldering body parts rain down."

 

cheers, Mark

[sinanju]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

We actually did this in an organized way. Make up any character you like, as long as it's rules legal, no GM's permission stuff and then set them up on a board and let them have at each other for a daylong slugfest.

 

It was a great way to learn/test the rules. Among many, many, other concepts, we got the tunnelling mindcontrolling slug with N-ray vision, before it became an internet meme, the killer robot with a flamethrower, the tiny Pixie with a really huge gun, the guy with extradimensional movement useable against others, the guy with N-ray vision and a multipower of indirect attacks, the little old granny with a baby carriage full of killer robots and the knight with a sword that would cut through anything.

 

It was helluva fun. I especially remember fondly the game where we had a village set up with a church in the middle of it. No less than 4 people thought it would be fun to start in the church tower. So the game starts with the GM asking these guys what their actions are and then informing the rest of the players "OK, first phase. The church tower explodes in a giant fireball. Smoldering body parts rain down."

 

cheers, Mark

 

We did nothing so formal, but the end result was often the same. We invented the GURPS mage who could buy up the spells Earthvision, Move thru Earth, Deathtouch and Staff (which allowed you to use "touch" range spells with a staff) to the level where he could move freely through the earth, see thru the earth for 50 yards, breathe normally despite being underground (all indefinitely) and smite his enemies with a deadly touch to the soles of their feet from more than six feet below ground with his staff.

 

We did play a game of GURPS Supers in which we all got 700!!! points to build supers under your same "if it's rules legal, no GM approval required" rule. It was fascinating...and horrifying. It ran one session before the GM ran screaming into the night.

[Eric, Omnirex]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

I especially remember fondly the game where we had a village set up with a church in the middle of it. No less than 4 people thought it would be fun to start in the church tower. So the game starts with the GM asking these guys what their actions are and then informing the rest of the players "OK' date=' first phase. The church tower explodes in a giant fireball. Smoldering body parts rain down[/i']."

 

Proof again the most obvious tactic isn't always the best.

[Eric, Omnirex]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

We did nothing so formal' date=' but the end result was often the same. We invented the GURPS mage who could buy up the spells Earthvision, Move thru Earth, Deathtouch and Staff (which allowed you to use "touch" range spells with a staff) to the level where he could move freely through the earth, see thru the earth for 50 yards, breathe normally despite being underground (all indefinitely) and smite his enemies with a deadly touch to the soles of their feet from more than six feet below ground with his staff.

 

Warning: this idea has been stoled.

NRay Vision only through earth and stone

Tunneling, Fill in

HKA no STR

Stretching using a staff.

 

Haha! Easy to HEROize.

[Shoutybloke]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

I came up with a horribly abusive build today: SpeedOfThoughtMan. SpeedOfThoughtMan has all his attack and movement powers built with trigger: when he wants to, activates as action that takes no time,resets automaticly.+1

[Markdoc]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

We did nothing so formal' date=' but the end result was often the same. We invented the GURPS mage who could buy up the spells Earthvision, Move thru Earth, Deathtouch and Staff (which allowed you to use "touch" range spells with a staff) to the level where he could move freely through the earth, see thru the earth for 50 yards, breathe normally despite being underground (all indefinitely) and smite his enemies with a deadly touch to the soles of their feet from more than six feet below ground with his staff..[/quote']

 

We did a version of this with GURPS called "The Earth Tank" - use Move Earth to call up a mobile mound of soil and then rumble around zapping people with the staff or simply running the dirt over the top of them and suffocating them. Put that together with the other mage with Firefinger and Mastery (never misses, never tires, provides fire support from behind the Earth Tank) and You could do this as a starting character too - early versions of GURPS fantasy magic were severely broken

 

Ah, good times

 

cheers, Mark

[Tech]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

This next one trumps the other GM unbalances I mentioned previously:

 

My friends and a brother decided to play in someone else's campaign whereas I did not. I do not regret that decision and here's why:

 

Characters were created for the campaign and followed the campaign rules. However, a GM train of thought, an aspect of the campaign that should have been told them... wasn't. The GM was still in the D&D train of though and it was a disaster:

 

the very first episode left the players wondering just what happened. They had to scramble for their lives just to survive Viper agents! Killing Attacks everywhere! This wasn't a case of a well-oiled agent team, this was a case of the GM not understanding GM balance as well as having the DM-Versus-Players mentality.

 

The GM's thoughts (apparently): well, agents like Viper are going to use lethal force so everything they use is Killing Attacks. This vastly ignores the fact that a 12d6 EB is lethal to normal people and most agents, as are 6d6 EB Autofire attacks. However, those attacks couldn't 'hurt' superheroes for BODY damage so it got turned into Killing attacks with the justification that it should be able to kill. He didn't understand that what is lethal to one person isn't necessarily lethal to superheroes.

 

The GM didn't tell the players that most attacks would be killing attacks. Shortly thereafter, my brother modified his hero to be able to survive the campaign, on it's own level. Our friend was shocked to see the revision.... not because of how lethal and powerful he'd become, but due to the realization of that is how your character would need to be to survive in that campaign. During the course of a different episode, the revised hero (with a forcefield) jumped in the way of a killing attack aimed at another hero. The GM was stupefied: why would the hero jump in the way and take the damage that was aimed at someone else? It didn't even enter his mind that being a heroic superhero meant taking a blow for someone that you could survive that a teammate could not.

 

The GM was a very poor GM. I still cringe when I think of the stories I heard. Fortunately, that campaign died and I say 'Good riddance'.

[DusterBoy]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

Ye gods.

 

I'm neither a player, nor a GM, but even I wouldn't pull any of this . . . stuff. Surely a game session is meant to be an enjoyable experience for both GM and players. And even I was married/had an SO, I wouldn't show favouritism. (So I sleep on the couch for a month. Big whoop. I like my couch.)

 

The GM isn't there to cheerlead for the PCs, but nor is he there to beat up on them. He has to be impartial, like a judge.

 

I would expect any GM to have the wit to think things through thoroughly before setting up the campaign, and to know his player's campaign preferences before start of play. And I would expect the same from the players.

 

My last experience of RP'ing was playing GURPS Discworld (with Phil Masters, yet, its creator, :thumbup:). I played a dwarf CSI - and I played in character.

 

However, a D&D player had the character on the next go round.

New player: "When do we get to the next monster?"

Me: "How about role-playing your character?"

Answer: a puzzled look. (It was back on 2002 so the details are a little hazy, but that's the gist).

 

Why it is that so many people come away from D&D (surely a system with as much opportunity for role-playing as any other) as power-gaming munchkins is a contant mystery to me.

 

(If you want to be a munchkin - play "Munchkin")

[Weldun]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

... D&D (surely a system with as much opportunity for role-playing as any other) ...

Quoted For Truth. And Repped.

 

Example.

[sinanju]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

Why it is that so many people come away from D&D (surely a system with as much opportunity for role-playing as any other) as power-gaming munchkins is a contant mystery to me.

 

I think it has to do with D&D's wargaming roots. It started out as "Chainmail," some supplemental rules for adding Heroic individual figures to fantasy-battle armies. So a lot of early D&D was played that way--it wasn't roleplaying per se, it was a more in-depth version of traditional wargaming.

 

Which, I think, also explains some of the "killer DM" and "GM vs Players" mentality we hear about (and many of us have experienced firsthand). The GM is still thinking as if he were playing a wargame against the opposing force--his objective, as General, is to crush the enemy. That the game has changed and now it's supposed to a collaborative effort hasn't sunk in yet.

 

I know, for instance, that back in the dim mists of prehistory, when Steamteck and I were in college, Steamteck believed it was his job as GM to kill off characters now and then. He admitted as much to me once, much later, when we'd all matured as gamers. So in those early years you knew with absolute bedrock certainty that sooner or later your character's number would come up. We only played D&D for a semester--then we switched to an increasingly-homebrewed version of Traveller.

 

But the results were still the same.

 

I still have the spiralbound notebooks in which I recorded my characters from those days. Most of the earliest character pages have no names. They're just collections of stats, powers, weapons and armor. I didn't bother giving them names or personalities or histories--they were disposable meat puppets. They fought until they died; their erstwhile comrades looted their bodies and then moved on without another thought for the fallen.

 

One of the other players routinely rolled up half a dozen characters per game session, and usually went through them all. Admittedly, he was a maniac--and his characters were maniacs. But still! When Julie (now Mrs. Steamteck) actually managed to keep a character alive for TEN GAME YEARS it was a fantastic feat! When she decided to RETIRE the character and start playing another rather than see her eventually but inevitably killed--that was an eye-opening moment.

 

It also coincided, more or less, with a change in how we all played. We began putting more (or some) thought into character backgrounds, personalities, goals (beyond surviving the next firefight). The end result is that today, more than 30 years later, Steamteck's campaign is still going on. Characters seldom die, though it isn't impossible. But "God" isn't actively trying to kill you.

 

Those early years, though? They were BRUTAL. The best fun I'd ever had in my life (with my clothes on)--but brutal.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

AH, back in the days of madness. They were days with their own crazed joy! He's right it NEVER OCCURRED to us to retire a character or that he didn't have to die for us to play another. One of our maniac friend's characters lasted all of 2 melee rounds!!! If someone died the next PC would just show up mysteriously on the other PCs side!

 

That character she retired eventually succumbed to death in NPC life but her descendants live on as great heroes.

 

I think Sinanju is right. We started playing D&D straight out of playing chainmail and the real roleplaying aspects took quite a while to cognate in our fevered college brains

[Weldun]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

If someone died the next PC would just show up mysteriously on the other PCs side!

So it was like you were playing one of the old SSI games?

[sinanju]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

AH' date=' back in the days of madness. They were days with their own crazed joy! He's right it NEVER OCCURRED to us to retire a character or that he didn't have to die for us to play another. One of our maniac friend's characters lasted all of 2 melee rounds!!! If someone died the next PC would just show up mysteriously on the other PCs side![/quote']

 

Yeah, as I recall explaining it to someone once, it's like you walk out your front door one day (armed and armored to the teeth, of course)--only to stumble across a vicious firefight. People are dropping like flies. You've never met ANY of them in your life--but you pick a side (presumably at random...) and leap into the fray on their behalf. Once the battle is over, you travel with them wherever the group goes.

 

When one of your mates dies, you strip his body of everything even remotely useful or valuable, and then leave the corpse behind. You never think about him again. And when it's your corpse lying smoking in a street or an alley...they do the same to you.

 

I think Sinanju is right. We started playing D&D straight out of playing chainmail and the real roleplaying aspects took quite a while to cognate in our fevered college brains

 

Of course I'm right!

[Maelstrom]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

Wow, dang. I started RPing right out of the box, and it took a while for the tactics to set in. Just the opposite.

[Markdoc]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

Yeah, as I recall explaining it to someone once, it's like you walk out your front door one day (armed and armored to the teeth, of course)--only to stumble across a vicious firefight. People are dropping like flies. You've never met ANY of them in your life--but you pick a side (presumably at random...) and leap into the fray on their behalf. Once the battle is over, you travel with them wherever the group goes.

 

When one of your mates dies, you strip his body of everything even remotely useful or valuable, and then leave the corpse behind. You never think about him again. And when it's your corpse lying smoking in a street or an alley...they do the same to you.

 

 

Wow' date=' dang. I started RPing right out of the box, and it took a while for the tactics to set in. Just the opposite.[/quote']

 

I got exposed to both of these early on. I GM'ed our first D&D games (28 years ago this month!) with only a copy of the player's handbook and since I had exactly zero other material and zero experience, I GM'ed it like a fantasy novel. Players had names and backgrounds (admittedly somewhat sketchy ones), went on quests, had epic adventures and developed non-combat goals. I don't recall any of them surviving to retirement in the early years (the body count was still pretty high), but some of them did live for years (both in game and real time)

 

About 6 months after that I joined a "proper" D&D game which is exactly like the one Sinanju describes, right down to looting the bodies of your deceased comrades. Just making it through a session alive was case for jubilation - doubly so because the survivors would usually gain a big chunk of experience, given that you got the party's accumulated XP take for killin' stuff divided up among the few survivors Casualty rates routinely exceeded 80%.

 

I enjoyed the hell out of both games, though I eventually dropped the second in favour of games more like my own style.

 

cheers, Mark

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

I know' date=' for instance, that back in the dim mists of prehistory, when Steamteck and I were in college, Steamteck believed it was his [i']job[/i] as GM to kill off characters now and then.

 

I talked to a guy (Dean) that worked at the local game store, and his main criticism of Champions was that "it's too hard to kill the heroes." (shake head sadly) I'm glad that Steamteck grew past that belief. I don't think Dean ever did. All I know is, I'm glad I never played in one of his games.

 

Don't get me wrong. I've heard of campaigns that were intentionally lethal, for good reasons and to good effect. But there's a difference between making character death a distinct possibility, and actively working to make it a certainty.

[MilkmanDan]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

I talked to a guy (Dean) that worked at the local game store' date=' and his main criticism of Champions was that "it's too hard to kill the heroes." (shake head sadly) I'm glad that Steamteck grew past that belief. I don't think Dean ever did. All I know is, I'm glad I never played in one of his games.[/quote']

 

I had a friend who didn't like the system for a similar reason. He didn't like Fantasy Hero because it was pretty much impossible to kill a PC in one hit. I pointed out it was "Fantasy Hero" and not "Fantasy Realism"; the idea behind the system was to create a heroic character who was supposed to be able to survive all sorts of things. I mean, with realism, page five of The Lord of the Rings would have finished the book with "And then a random arrow hit Aragorn, and he died". Ooooh, fun stuff there.

[BNakagawa]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

Wow' date=' dang. I started RPing right out of the box, and it took a while for the tactics to set in. Just the opposite.[/quote']

 

it all depends on the group you first gamed with. My first gaming group couldn't spell roleplaying if you spotted them all the consonants.

[sinanju]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

I talked to a guy (Dean) that worked at the local game store, and his main criticism of Champions was that "it's too hard to kill the heroes." (shake head sadly) I'm glad that Steamteck grew past that belief. I don't think Dean ever did. All I know is, I'm glad I never played in one of his games.

 

Yeah, fortunately when Steamteck thought it was his duty as GM to kill off characters now and then, we shared that misperception. The only downside was when you rolled up a really nifty character--and you just hoped he'd last a long while. Sometimes he did. Sometimes he didn't.

 

We played only one semester of D&D. I came back from Christmas break ready to play D&D--and Steamteck helped me roll up my very first TRAVELLER character. And almost immediately we began tinkering with the system. Steamteck threw in the mutation tables from GAMMA WORLD and METAMORPHOSIS ALPHA, and the tables expanded over time as we added powers (and disadvantages) culled from pulp novels, science fiction, fantasy, comics, movies and our own fevered imaginations.

 

The same was true of weapons, armor, psionics--everything. Steamteck's game was a melting pot of ideas, characters, plots, environments, tools and equipment from everywhere. There's no way to communicate just how weirdly entertaining it was. I often wish I could find a game which is as much fun as that one was, but--alas!--most of the fun was in the novelty. The idea that I could participate in fantasy or science fiction adventures instead of merely reading about them or watching them was mind-bending at the time.

[Fireleaper]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

I remember the first time I ran a game ever. It was DND 3.5 and I was touring the PC's through a world that I had made up. Unfortunately there was regular character deaths. Initially it was due to not quite getting the CL correct (having a PC roasted on the first turn by a Pyrohydra was not what I intended), which was partly due to a quote that floated around the table: "a monster of a given challenge is designed so that it will take 25% of the parties resources - including hit points". But later it was due do the lethality of players rolling really low on the save or die effects (namely 1's on a d20). Strangely enough when that was happening a bit too frequently I tried to veer away from instant kill effects.

[hfergus]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

Wow' date=' dang. I started RPing right out of the box, and it took a while for the tactics to set in. Just the opposite.[/quote']

Me too. But then I never played Chainmail. And as a kid, even playing with army men got a bit into roleplaying, so I went there naturally.

[Maelstrom]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

it all depends on the group you first gamed with. My first gaming group couldn't spell roleplaying if you spotted them all the consonants.

 

That wasn't the Beresford group, was it?

[BNakagawa]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

That wasn't the Beresford group' date=' was it?[/quote']

 

oh heck no. That's where I first learned what roleplaying was like. Sure, there was more than a little politics and drama, but it was a heck of a lot more interesting than kick in the door and start hacking things to pieces until they all died and we could loot the bodies.

 

My first group formed in middle school. It sort of folded when some of us started going to Beresford on friday nights.

[Weldun]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

I remember the first time I ran a game ever. It was DND 3.5 and I was touring the PC's through a world that I had made up. Unfortunately there was regular character deaths. Initially it was due to not quite getting the CL correct (having a PC roasted on the first turn by a Pyrohydra was not what I intended)' date=' which was partly due to a quote that floated around the table: "a monster of a given challenge is designed so that it will take 25% of the parties resources - including hit points". But later it was due do the lethality of players rolling really low on the save or die effects (namely 1's on a d20). Strangely enough when that was happening a bit too frequently I tried to veer away from instant kill effects.[/quote']You know me. If I have to roll anything but a one or my character is dead, I will roll a one. My Half-Orc to a Bodak and my Half-Ogre to a cloud kill. Hmm, maybe it was that I played a human next. My humans tend to last reasonably well. No, no. Weldûn. 'Nuff said.

[Maelstrom]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

My first group formed in middle school. It sort of folded when some of us started going to Beresford on friday nights.

 

There are times I really miss it.