What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

[Tech]

I have gotten so many laughs (of dismay perhaps?) when I think of one of my friends so I thought I'd share some new-GM stories. He decided he wanted to GM and would create his own villains. Even though an experienced GM myself, me, my friends and brothers decided to give him a chance. Fortunately, we wised-up pretty fast...

 

Our new GM brings in a character of his own as a NPC: a creepy one that I couldn't understand. I mean, did he just have a bunch of random powers or was there some actual design? I never did figure it out.

 

Our heroes find out some creatures are attacking people, due to Mr. Creepy (which I hereby dub him). Mr. Creepy leads us right to them, imagine that?

During the fight, the GM tells us "one of them attacks Mr. Creepy and rips half his face off", leaving us players shocked.

 

(The GM's inexperience decides to puff-itself out). The GM tells us immediately after that "another one attacks Mr. Creepy tearing the other half of his face off." At this point, we're thinking, "O-----kayyyyy." Seeing that these creatures are lethal and killers, we don't hold back anymore. The move-throughs and haymakers by the heroes commence.

 

Wait, there's more!

 

Three of the creatures attack our brother's armored hero, who was quite durable, such as a 40 CON, 30 PD and about 55 Stun. Quite nice stats.

Each creature hits with killing attacks for the following damage:

15 Body and 45 Stun

15 Body and 60 Stun

20 Body and 80 Stun

At this damage, my brother asks, "Hey, what kind of damage do these things do? I'm out already."

At this, the GM replies, "What? You're out already? I thought he was tough."

 

And now for the clincher:

 

After our heroes cause some serious damage to the creatures, one of them asks us to stop and they'll stop. My, my, it talks now! I don't recall everything but supposedly the creatures 'had a misunderstanding'.

 

Finally, the ending:

 

The heroes call a morgue to deal with the dead hero(?) I dubbed Mr. Creepy and start to leave (more like the players wanted this episode to end ASAP).

 

The GM is surprised that we aren't mourning for his character.

 

We're in denial here. My older brother says "Look, we didn't know him and he didn't like us. He had an aura of fear as a disadvantage. You said he had glowing red eyes. You said he was creepy. Why should we!?"

 

He did later tell us he didn't like the character and was going to get rid of him. My question is (which I should have asked him at the time): why did you even bother to bring him into the game?

[penemue]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

This is why I am the GM and I've been the GM for 25 years...

I'm also a grumpy player.

[The Main Man]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

Eh, GM'ing takes practice but that is an amusing story.

[Tech]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

Same GM, our herogroup is called to a small town. One of the hero's friends tell us something has killed a couple of the townsfolk but the police can't find out why. Now, I'm glad to say the storytelling part got much better. Our leads led us to the forest and the heroes geared up for what might be a monster. The mood was mysterious and the forest foreboding as we searched through the forest. The night sky is cloudy, making the forest hard to search. The night sky clears and a full moon shows, then we hear a wolf howl. Our heroes, realizing what's going on, shudder: a werewolf.

 

It shows up and attacks the heroes, naturally; what self-respecting werewolf wouldn't? Now, up to this point, we were actually enjoying ourselves. A nice story and way better episode...

 

Suddenly, GM inexperience kicks in and game balance out the window!

 

The werewolf becomes superwerewolf! It picks up a tree and hits us with it (or did it rip the half of the upper tree off? Maybe it did both.) Oh yeah, it's Speed increased. Did I mention it stopped using it's 3d6 HKA and started using it's 70 Strength?

 

Now, despite this, we still managed to enjoy the battle. I would've preferred us capturing the werewolf and lifting the were-curse, or even had a second werewolf attack. It ended with a sheriff shooting it with a silver bullet.

 

This episode, at least, is amusing.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

My first Champions GMing experience - old Island of Dr. Destroyer.

 

Heroes make it to shore, deal with various automated defenses and such.

 

Make it to the nefarious Dr. Destroyer. HKA to the chest, manage to overlook the Armor on his sheet.

 

Short fight.

[The Main Man]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ytCEuuW2_A

[sinanju]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

He wasn't a new GM, but he was invariably out of his depth when dealing with the WOW gang--a bunch of unrepentant powergaming munchkins. I was one of them. We were playing his GURPS Supers game. I was playing Mr. Fusion, an energy blaster. Thru various cunning machinations, I ended up with an insanely powerful energy blast (32d6 AP RKA* in Champions terms).

 

We were fighting Kang the Conqueror, a long-time and very powerful villain from Marvel comics. I ran into Kang. He turned on his uber-powerful** forcefield. I hit him with 32d6 of AP fusion energy. Blew through his forcefield like a hot knife through butter and burned a dinner-plate sized hole clean through his torso.

 

End scenario.

 

*Hey, this was GURPS. ALL attacks were lethal unless explicitly purchased as Stun-Only.

 

**Or it should have been. But Todd had a habit of building his bad guys--even his uber bad guys--on the same points as a PC. And he wasn't nearly as adept at thinking on his feet and rules lawyering as his players were. So his bad guys invariably fell with alarming ease.

[nexus]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

I have gotten so many laughs (of dismay perhaps?) when I think of one of my friends so I thought I'd share some new-GM stories. He decided he wanted to GM and would create his own villains. Even though an experienced GM myself, me, my friends and brothers decided to give him a chance. Fortunately, we wised-up pretty fast...

 

Our new GM brings in a character of his own as a NPC: a creepy one that I couldn't understand. I mean, did he just have a bunch of random powers or was there some actual design? I never did figure it out.

 

Our heroes find out some creatures are attacking people, due to Mr. Creepy (which I hereby dub him). Mr. Creepy leads us right to them, imagine that?

During the fight, the GM tells us "one of them attacks Mr. Creepy and rips half his face off", leaving us players shocked.

 

(The GM's inexperience decides to puff-itself out). The GM tells us immediately after that "another one attacks Mr. Creepy tearing the other half of his face off." At this point, we're thinking, "O-----kayyyyy." Seeing that these creatures are lethal and killers, we don't hold back anymore. The move-throughs and haymakers by the heroes commence.

 

Wait, there's more!

 

Three of the creatures attack our brother's armored hero, who was quite durable, such as a 40 CON, 30 PD and about 55 Stun. Quite nice stats.

Each creature hits with killing attacks for the following damage:

15 Body and 45 Stun

15 Body and 60 Stun

20 Body and 80 Stun

At this damage, my brother asks, "Hey, what kind of damage do these things do? I'm out already."

At this, the GM replies, "What? You're out already? I thought he was tough."

 

And now for the clincher:

 

After our heroes cause some serious damage to the creatures, one of them asks us to stop and they'll stop. My, my, it talks now! I don't recall everything but supposedly the creatures 'had a misunderstanding'.

 

Finally, the ending:

 

The heroes call a morgue to deal with the dead hero(?) I dubbed Mr. Creepy and start to leave (more like the players wanted this episode to end ASAP).

 

The GM is surprised that we aren't mourning for his character.

 

We're in denial here. My older brother says "Look, we didn't know him and he didn't like us. He had an aura of fear as a disadvantage. You said he had glowing red eyes. You said he was creepy. Why should we!?"

 

He did later tell us he didn't like the character and was going to get rid of him. My question is (which I should have asked him at the time): why did you even bother to bring him into the game?

 

Count yourself lucky. Usually when I hear "The Gm brought in an old PC..." it's the prelude to a long night of the PCs being cheer leaders for the GMPC's exploits.

[BNakagawa]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

I met a fellow Hero player my freshman year in college. I was going through his binder of villains and asked him why all of his bricks had Find Weakness.

 

He said they needed it to compete with martial artists.

 

0_o

 

It turned out that he thought Find Weakness halved DCV.

[lemming]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

I met a fellow Hero player my freshman year in college. I was going through his binder of villains and asked him why all of his bricks had Find Weakness.

 

He said they needed it to compete with martial artists.

 

0_o

 

It turned out that he thought Find Weakness halved DCV.

I can't believe we ever gamed with that guy!

 

Though I remember a lot of balance problems with everybody.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

I recall someone running a game with 200 point characters where the villains were typically of the power levle where you needed 20d6 of attack to make them notice ...

[Certified]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

/e Peeks from around the Corner

 

Okay, let me star by saying I like the Hero System. However, I believe this thread helps to highlight one of Heroes greatest weaknesses, it's strength. Because it's so flexible there are infinite cool things one can do with it. At the same time people can pick it up and say, okay what do I do with it now. For a 500+ core rulebook it really leaves the reader in a sink or swim situation even with the sample characters. It's easy to unbalance a single character but when trying to design a challenge for a party one has to step back and wonder, is this going to be too effective/ineffective to be of any use? I think even with an experienced GM it can be easy for one to screw things up royally. Now, this is not to say, I'm advocating a negative advancement system that compares levels to challenge ratings and may or may not rhyme Sungeons & Sragons but it does mean that GMs must put a lot more thought into an encounter much less an adventure.

 

/e Looks around, flees inevitable reactions.

[Eric, Omnirex]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

Count yourself lucky. Usually when I hear "The Gm brought in an old PC..." it's the prelude to a long night of the PCs being cheer leaders for the GMPC's exploits.

 

Oh g** don't remind me! Ick. Ack. Uck.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

My first time playing Champions, back in 1983, was also the GM's first time. The game itself was pretty much brand new, and none of us (including the GM) knew thing one about the system.

 

My first character was GI Jones, a badass Vietnam vet with an M-16. And the rules listed an M-16 as "6d6 / 2d6K Autofire". We didn't know that meant 6d6 normal, or 2d6 RKA. Our interpretation was 6d6 damage per hit, and 2d6 Knockback.

 

Our first fight found GI Jones pitted against Brick, and I ended up hitting him with 4 shots. And as I said, none of us really knew the rules, so I rolled 6d6 four times, then 2d6 four more times for Knockback. The bullets themselves barely hurt Brick, but 30 inches of Knockback sent him through two buildings and into a third, and the damage he took from those took him out.

 

Shortly after that, the GM figured out how it really works, much to my disappointment.

[Certified]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

My first time playing Champions, back in 1983, was also the GM's first time. The game itself was pretty much brand new, and none of us (including the GM) knew thing one about the system.

 

My first character was GI Jones, a badass Vietnam vet with an M-16. And the rules listed an M-16 as "6d6 / 2d6K Autofire". We didn't know that meant 6d6 normal, or 2d6 RKA. Our interpretation was 6d6 damage per hit, and 2d6 Knockback.

 

Our first fight found GI Jones pitted against Brick, and I ended up hitting him with 4 shots. And as I said, none of us really knew the rules, so I rolled 6d6 four times, then 2d6 four more times for Knockback. The bullets themselves barely hurt Brick, but 30 inches of Knockback sent him through two buildings and into a third, and the damage he took from those took him out.

 

Shortly after that, the GM figured out how it really works, much to my disappointment.

 

I want that M-16!

[Maelstrom]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

MY worst problem as a GM is that I'm too much of a cheerleader for the players. I drop hints, and run combats by time rather than actual damage done. (They've been fighting this villain for a while -- next really good roll will put him down.)

 

This is partly because of recent bad experiences with a Champions game with a GM who brought in an undamageable brick -- with a constant damage field. Everything in that game was so tough, I gave up after two or three game sessions. He was a good GM, but his villains were just too uber. I like having players think, but I hate to see them frustrated.

[Vulcan]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

One of our newer players tried to GM a Champions game. The PC's were 350 points, but we lowballed things to not overwhelm him with uber-characters.

 

There was a fight in the woods where 8 minions ambushed 4 heros. One hero was killed outright in the intital barrage, the rest were KO'd by phase 3. This was partially due to some phenominal damage rolls, but there was also the little detail that the minions were 200 points and munchkined out...

 

By the end of the fight he realized what he had done and apologized. We replayed the battle the next week and things were... tough, but reasonable.

[Weldun]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

One of our newer players tried to GM a Champions game. The PC's were 350 points, but we lowballed things to not overwhelm him with uber-characters.

 

There was a fight in the woods where 8 minions ambushed 4 heros. One hero was killed outright in the intital barrage, the rest were KO'd by phase 3. This was partially due to some phenominal damage rolls, but there was also the little detail that the minions were 200 points and munchkined out...

 

By the end of the fight he realized what he had done and apologized. We replayed the battle the next week and things were... tough, but reasonable.

Sometimes this is all that needs to happen, other times you need to walk away.

 

Confession time, I really screwed up a Mekton game, once. I built the PCs mecha to be tough and versatile, and I succeeded. I then built the bad guys. I wanted them to be mooks, low cost and low defences. But I wanted them to be a threat, so I upped the speed and maneuverability and then I added (and here's where it hurts) two 2k weapons with a BV of ∞ (Mekton players know what this means, but in champions terms, 1k is equivalent to a .50 caliber machinegun round, and a BV of ∞ would translate to Autofire ∞), and then cross-linked them. Now this could have been fixed, but I made the mistake of constantly commenting with such things as "I can't believe this, you have more than 3 times their point value and they're you up the !"

 

My players did the right thing by telling me that they weren't playing any more and why. Fortunately, I agreed with them and asked if I someone else could run a game while I re-examined my GMing style. Nowdays, my mooks are that, mooks. They're lucky to hit, and they're lucky to do serious damage, but are enough that the PCs can't afford to ignore them. My goons can hit almost as often as the PCs, and can do almost as much damage, but aren't much harder to take out than mooks.

[Tech]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

/e Peeks from around the Corner

 

Okay, let me star by saying I like the Hero System. However, I believe this thread helps to highlight one of Heroes greatest weaknesses, it's strength. Because it's so flexible there are infinite cool things one can do with it. At the same time people can pick it up and say, okay what do I do with it now. For a 500+ core rulebook it really leaves the reader in a sink or swim situation even with the sample characters. It's easy to unbalance a single character but when trying to design a challenge for a party one has to step back and wonder, is this going to be too effective/ineffective to be of any use? I think even with an experienced GM it can be easy for one to screw things up royally. Now, this is not to say, I'm advocating a negative advancement system that compares levels to challenge ratings and may or may not rhyme Sungeons & Sragons but it does mean that GMs must put a lot more thought into an encounter much less an adventure.

 

/e Looks around, flees inevitable reactions.

 

To a small degree I agree but if it's Heroes greatest weakness, so it is for all RPG's. When someone who plays on the hero side decides he or she wants to be a GM, they encounter a whole new world to the game. There are so many nuances to the game they are not aware of, that they now run into suddenly. They encounter the planning of an episode, the possible episode derailing by the players, the realization that the episode that should've been three hours long gets finished by the players in 45 minutes, the enemy that was supposed to come across as a mastermind comes off as incompetent, and on and on. Any GM of any rpg will run into this, not just those of they hero system.

[Certified]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

To a small degree I agree but if it's Heroes greatest weakness' date=' so it is for all RPG's. When someone who plays on the hero side decides he or she wants to be a GM, they encounter a whole new world to the game. There are so many nuances to the game they are not aware of, that they now run into suddenly. They encounter the planning of an episode, the possible episode derailing by the players, the realization that the episode that should've been three hours long gets finished by the players in 45 minutes, the enemy that was supposed to come across as a mastermind comes off as incompetent, and on and on. Any GM of any rpg will run into this, not just those of they hero system.[/quote']

 

Sure, there are balance issues with any game. However, these become highlighted in the Hero System because everything rests so squarely on the GM's shoulders. Hero lacks a class system so one cannot easily define most characters. Sure, one player might be playing a traditional Brick or Weapon Master, but more than likely each character will have elements of different archetypes while possibly favoring one. This is not to say it's a bad thing, only that to GM Hero it requires more planning and a deeper understanding of both the Characters and the rules.

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

Count yourself lucky. Usually when I hear "The Gm brought in an old PC..." it's the prelude to a long night of the PCs being cheer leaders for the GMPC's exploits.

I have much greater fear of the phrase "My girlfriend is going to try playing tonight." At least with a GM's authorial insert character he may skew things to help the adventure follow a planned story track. I've found in most cases that the non-gamer girlfriend showing up to try things out results in ridiculous favoritism and derailing the tone of the game.

 

Note that the above problems don't seem to crop up if the GM's girlfriend is actually a gamer in her own right, just with significant others who come in without any RPG experience and are inclined to take what their boyfriend has happen to their characters personally.

[Cygnia]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

Note that the above problems don't seem to crop up if the GM's girlfriend is actually a gamer in her own right' date='[/quote']

 

That's right...when the GM's SO is a gamer, there's the chance of a whole NEW crop o' problems!

 

"So lemmie get this straight...everyone took damage from the no-save area effect fireball EXCEPT your wife, Bob?"

[hfergus]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

Count yourself lucky. Usually when I hear "The Gm brought in an old PC..." it's the prelude to a long night of the PCs being cheer leaders for the GMPC's exploits.

I almost always bring in an old PC in when I game. Does it become a cheering session for him? No. He tends to fade into the background, except for his "true hero" outlook. His flaws tend to get more attention. (Hates crowds; is kinda shy.) It depends on how the old Pc is played. Once I even killed him... but of course I brought him back eventually. His loss (not sacrificially heroic even, just a big boom directed at a disad) caused more pathos than I thought. The rest of the group were shocked, and one went rogue due to it for a while. (Well, he killed the bad guy who lead the guy that killed my PC- in cold blood.) I just thought it made a good story, but the group really reacted to it. He's in his 60's, the heroes tend to be younger, and he seems to end up being a father figure, whether I intend that or not.

[Vulcan]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

Using an old, favorite PC as an NPC in a background roll is OK. I've done it several times, usually with 'retired' PC's from an earlier game in the same timeline. That can help establish continuity with the earlier game.

 

The problem that crops up is when an NPC is a subtitute PC for the GM...

[Alverant]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

I would think this would be simple. If the players and GM are mature adults, they should be able to bring up their concerns and find a resolution rationally. If they're not mature adults, they should be power mongering in World of War-crack.

 

My first time as a GM in Hero the players rolled over all my goons. It was a DC game. The PCs had to knock over a Tong gambling den and retrieve $112,000 for a local Catholic church (sound familiar? it was based off a news story). Anyway it was a minor den on the edge of Chinatown so it wasn't that secure in the first place. But still, the bad guys only scored one hit, and that was against armor so no real damage, and the PCs killed all the bad guys and escaped in the chaos. So what did I do? Did I bring down the whole Tong army? No! Did a bunch of goons with military grade body armor and heavy machine guns charge out of a van? No! Were the PCs surrounded by Chinese sorcerers and their version of the ninja? No! Are the other dens going to set up security and be more alert? Yes.

 

In my game, everyone has an agenda and everyone is going to react in accordance to their personality. Right now the Tongs think this was done by the Mafia (the PCs were identified as being white), but they will be more careful in the near future and start preparing a counter-strike. Next time, they won't be such a push over.