What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

[Maelstrom]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

Using an old, favorite PC as an NPC in a background roll is OK. I've done it several times, usually with 'retired' PC's from an earlier game in the same timeline. That can help establish continuity with the earlier game.

 

The problem that crops up is when an NPC is a subtitute PC for the GM...

 

Knew a guy who did this, and gave his PC, who was NPCing for the run, as much xp as the players got. Also, his wife 'ran' his characters every night, so when he played his PCs, they had tons more xp than the other PCs. But, we were all young.

[nexus]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

I have much greater fear of the phrase "My girlfriend is going to try playing tonight." At least with a GM's authorial insert character he may skew things to help the adventure follow a planned story track. I've found in most cases that the non-gamer girlfriend showing up to try things out results in ridiculous favoritism and derailing the tone of the game.

 

Note that the above problems don't seem to crop up if the GM's girlfriend is actually a gamer in her own right, just with significant others who come in without any RPG experience and are inclined to take what their boyfriend has happen to their characters personally.

 

Ah, yes, GM's Girlfriend Syndrome

 

"You find 10 gp and a rusty dagger."

 

"You find a dented helm and a couple of chipped cloudy diamond."

 

And you honey find a Vorpal Sword +3 of Everything Slaying Elven mail, 30,000 fist sized platinum nuggets and a bottomless beaker of Healing potions!"

 

"Thanks, baby!"

[nexus]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

I almost always bring in an old PC in when I game. Does it become a cheering session for him? No. He tends to fade into the background' date=' except for his "true hero" outlook. His flaws tend to get more attention. (Hates crowds; is kinda shy.) It depends on how the old Pc is played. Once I even killed him... but of course I brought him back eventually. His loss (not sacrificially heroic even, just a big boom directed at a disad) caused more pathos than I thought. The rest of the group were shocked, and one went rogue due to it for a while. (Well, he killed the bad guy who lead the guy that killed my PC- in cold blood.) I just thought it made a good story, but the group really reacted to it. He's in his 60's, the heroes tend to be younger, and he seems to end up being a father figure, whether I intend that or not.[/quote']

 

Using an old, favorite PC as an NPC in a background roll is OK. I've done it several times, usually with 'retired' PC's from an earlier game in the same timeline. That can help establish continuity with the earlier game.

 

The problem that crops up is when an NPC is a substitute PC for the GM...

 

The old character of the GM's is fine, the GMPC is another issue and often abused, IME. Always no? But enough that's it's become something of a warning sign for many. It can lead to ego tripping and overstepping the PCs particularly with new and inexperience GMs. It might even be unintentional.

[QueenOfItAll]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

I have much greater fear of the phrase "My girlfriend is going to try playing tonight."

 

That's right...when the GM's SO is a gamer' date=' there's the chance of a whole NEW crop o' problems! [/quote']

 

Quoted for truth.

[Fedifensor]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

My first time playing Champions' date=' back in 1983, was also the GM's first time. The game itself was pretty much brand new, and none of us (including the GM) knew thing one about the system.[/quote']

Reminds me of the Champions game I played when I entered college (1988-1989). I was fairly new to the system (only played a few times in high school) but a mechanic at heart, and I wanted to play a brick. So, I made an absorption-based brick called Kinetic.

 

If I remember correctly, he was 20 PD/20 ED, 1/2 PD and ED Damage Reduction...and Absorption to STR and STUN. The campaign was based on averages of 10d6-12d6 for attacks, and around 25 for defenses.

 

First fight - multiple agents unload on me with 8d6 blasters, and knock me through a wall with knockback. I roll absorption, apply damage from each attack separately versus my defenses...and realize I have more STUN than I started with! I was absorbing more STUN on each attack than I was losing after defenses and DR.

 

Despite retooling the character afterwards to get rid of the STUN portion of the absorption, the GM made it a personal vendetta to take my character down at every opportunity for the rest of the campaign. I found out every possible way to take out a character like mine. I was grabbed so my absorption to STR wouldn't activate (the character was a low-STR brick with martial arts). I was thrown out a window where it took several phases to get back into the combat. I was targeted with multiple 8d6 Continuous attacks (which, since my defenses were lower due to the Damage Reduction, meant I dropped faster than a pure Brick would have). The only straight fight I had in the entire campaign was an accident, as I ended up taking on a foe designed to go against a different character.

 

Granted, this is as much player mistake as GM mistake...but the GM was more experienced with the system, and signed off on the character. Being able to spot problems like that before play starts is a very important skill for HERO GMs.

[Vulcan]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

Reminds me of the Champions game I played when I entered college (1988-1989). I was fairly new to the system (only played a few times in high school) but a mechanic at heart, and I wanted to play a brick. So, I made an absorption-based brick called Kinetic.

 

If I remember correctly, he was 20 PD/20 ED, 1/2 PD and ED Damage Reduction...and Absorption to STR and STUN. The campaign was based on averages of 10d6-12d6 for attacks, and around 25 for defenses.

 

First fight - multiple agents unload on me with 8d6 blasters, and knock me through a wall with knockback. I roll absorption, apply damage from each attack separately versus my defenses...and realize I have more STUN than I started with! I was absorbing more STUN on each attack than I was losing after defenses and DR.

 

Despite retooling the character afterwards to get rid of the STUN portion of the absorption, the GM made it a personal vendetta to take my character down at every opportunity for the rest of the campaign. I found out every possible way to take out a character like mine. I was grabbed so my absorption to STR wouldn't activate (the character was a low-STR brick with martial arts). I was thrown out a window where it took several phases to get back into the combat. I was targeted with multiple 8d6 Continuous attacks (which, since my defenses were lower due to the Damage Reduction, meant I dropped faster than a pure Brick would have). The only straight fight I had in the entire campaign was an accident, as I ended up taking on a foe designed to go against a different character.

 

Granted, this is as much player mistake as GM mistake...but the GM was more experienced with the system, and signed off on the character. Being able to spot problems like that before play starts is a very important skill for HERO GMs.

 

More to the point, continuing to pick on you after you reduced the power of the character... another GM no-no. On the other hand, your character did have 15 AP more defense than the average - more if the DR was resistant.

 

I have no problem with a GM saying "This is more powerful than I realized, can we tone it down a bit." We make some alterations and the game is the better for it. But don't pick on me for it afterwards, that really bothers me.

[Tech]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

Fantasy Hero time... I was in a fortunately short-lived campaign I had the displeasure of being in. The campaign had been created without anyone having any input and limits were imposed without consulting the players as to what kind of campaign they might like.

 

You were limited to 6d6 normal damage/2d6 Killing attack but the villains had no limits. Also, the 6d6 damage could be expanded to be 6d6 EB Explosion or even 6d6 AP EB but you still couldn't do more than 6d6.

 

I'm glad that campaign died. Campaign limits are one thing, a GM that simply will not budge on anything is another.

[Mark Rand]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

Not having gamed in about 20 years, I'm not sure what game balance is. Could someone please define it?

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

"So lemmie get this straight...everyone took damage from the no-save area effect fireball EXCEPT your wife, Bob?"

 

I've not run into that with the women who play RPGs because they like gaming (as opposed to the ones who must share all activities with their boyfriends/husbands because it's a Law of Coupledom). They neither asked for nor received preferential in-game treatment... pretty much the only difference between their SOs running the game and other friends from the group was that there was more teasing and bickering out of character.

[Cygnia]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

I've not run into that with the women who play RPGs because they like gaming (as opposed to the ones who must share all activities with their boyfriends/husbands because it's a Law of Coupledom). They neither asked for nor received preferential in-game treatment... pretty much the only difference between their SOs running the game and other friends from the group was that there was more teasing and bickering out of character.

 

Consider yourself lucky. And unfortunately, it comes on both sides. I've seen Wife/Girlfriend GMs blatantly favor their spouses/BFs too.

[Tech]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

Not having gamed in about 20 years' date=' I'm not sure what game balance is. Could someone please define it?[/quote']

 

Game balance is setting fair standards and having equalizing power levels, on both the player's side and GM side. You don't want to have heroes who are like Indiana Jones fight enemies who are as powerful as Superman; the heroes would be obliterated. Likewise, ten heroes walking around with machine guns and rocket launchers fighting puppy dogs wouldn't be very heroic or fun. There has to be a predefined balance in a game setting set by the GM where the players know they can have fun without being too powerful or too ineffective.

 

That's as best a definition I can come up with right now.

[Mark Rand]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

Game balance is setting fair standards and having equalizing power levels, on both the player's side and GM side. You don't want to have heroes who are like Indiana Jones fight enemies who are as powerful as Superman; the heroes would be obliterated. Likewise, ten heroes walking around with machine guns and rocket launchers fighting puppy dogs wouldn't be very heroic or fun. There has to be a predefined balance in a game setting set by the GM where the players know they can have fun without being too powerful or too ineffective.

 

That's as best a definition I can come up with right now.

 

Thanks. I was hoping it was something like that. That way, once I get a game started, I can use the rule, "Characters are built on 200 points, plus what you need in disadvantages and experience points to make them playable. Also, they must meet GM approval." Players must also give character background, personality and motivation, powers and tactics, a description, and a quote.

[input.jack]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

Reminds me of the Champions game I played when I entered college (1988-1989). I was fairly new to the system (only played a few times in high school) but a mechanic at heart, and I wanted to play a brick. So, I made an absorption-based brick called Kinetic.

 

.......

 

Granted, this is as much player mistake as GM mistake...but the GM was more experienced with the system, and signed off on the character. Being able to spot problems like that before play starts is a very important skill for HERO GMs.

 

That sounds completely and utterly like a shizzle GM. Your concept was valid, he signed off on the initial design, and then had the temerity to launch a "vendetta" against you for having made his mooks look bad.

 

Kick him in the bean bag and walk away.

[Tech]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

Thanks. I was hoping it was something like that. That way' date=' once I get a game started, I can use the rule, "Characters are built on 200 points, plus what you need in disadvantages and experience points to make them playable. Also, they must meet GM approval." Players must also give character background, personality and motivation, powers and tactics, a description, and a quote.[/quote']

 

Very fair but also be willing to give something new a try. It seems like every new Champions character that is made up for our campaign nowadays is trying out a new angle on a power or concept.

[sinanju]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

That sounds completely and utterly like a shizzle GM. Your concept was valid, he signed off on the initial design, and then had the temerity to launch a "vendetta" against you for having made his mooks look bad.

 

Kick him in the bean bag and walk away.

 

Yeah, I've posted a number of times on these boards about the games I played in (or ran) with a bunch of unrepentant rules-lawyers and powergamers. But the thing is--we also recognized that the point of the game was to have fun. So the GMs weren't shy about saying "Not in MY game!" or, if they allowed something that wasn't working, requiring the player to revamp or retire the characters.

 

And the rules lawyers would go along with it. After all, half the fun was creating characters and finding new ways to exploit the rules. We all created far more characters than we ever played, often finding loopholes and displaying them to the other guys--and then agreeing that, no, that's not allowable in any of our games. Amusing. Clever. Fiendish, even--but not going to pass muster.

[Mr. R]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

Ah, yes, GM's Girlfriend Syndrome

 

"You find 10 gp and a rusty dagger."

 

"You find a dented helm and a couple of chipped cloudy diamond."

 

And you honey find a Vorpal Sword +3 of Everything Slaying Elven mail, 30,000 fist sized platinum nuggets and a bottomless beaker of Healing potions!"

 

"Thanks, baby!"

 

Yeah but isn't that also due to the Rings of Husband control they wear? Hers is the controlling ring, his is the receiver. And it's telepathic "Disappoint me and you sleep on the couch--for a month"

[Vulcan]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

Obviously they are still relatively newlywed (within the first 5 years). After that, the husbands wise up and buy a more comfortable couch. Since the other benfits have dried up by then anyway in most cases.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

RE: sleeping on the couch. I think it was Rodney Dangerfield that once said, "Marry a good cook. Sex may fade over time, but you always have to eat."

 

I only made the mistake of gaming with one girlfriend (with me as GM running a Fantasy Hero campaign). I recall one occasion where the players were exploring some monster-infested caverns. It's hard to build up suspense when your girlfriend is drawing hearts and cute cartoon figures on the hexmap.

[QueenOfItAll]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

I only made the mistake of gaming with one girlfriend (with me as GM running a Fantasy Hero campaign). I recall one occasion where the players were exploring some monster-infested caverns. It's hard to build up suspense when your girlfriend is drawing hearts and cute cartoon figures on the hexmap.

 

That is an excellent method to become an ex-girlfriend.

[Eric, Omnirex]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

That sounds completely and utterly like a shizzle GM. Your concept was valid, he signed off on the initial design, and then had the temerity to launch a "vendetta" against you for having made his mooks look bad.

 

Kick him in the bean bag and walk away.

 

Oh yeah, spare me from vindective GMs.

[Maelstrom]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

That is an excellent method to become an ex-girlfriend.

 

Meh. Love conquers all.

[Fedifensor]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

More to the point' date=' continuing to pick on you after you reduced the power of the character... another GM no-no. [img']http://www.herogames.com/forums/images/icons/tsk.gif[/img] On the other hand, your character did have 15 AP more defense than the average - more if the DR was resistant.

25 defenses were average overall - I was playing a brick with higher than average defenses and lower than average damage (started at 8d6, went up as my Absorption to STR kicked in). I assume I reduced the power of my character enough...otherwise, why was the GM letting me play him? I certainly didn't upstage the other characters after that first adventure.

 

That sounds completely and utterly like a shizzle GM. Your concept was valid, he signed off on the initial design, and then had the temerity to launch a "vendetta" against you for having made his mooks look bad.

 

Kick him in the bean bag and walk away.

Well, it was 20 years ago, in college. Everyone drops the ball on occasion, and I was no exception to that rule. I've gotten over it.

 

Besides, other games I was in with him (whether he was a GM or fellow player) were fine...though aside from Champions I think the only other game I saw him GM was Shadowrun. If I met him again (and I know a friend who games with him), I'd probably ask his perception of that game out of curiosity, but it's water under the bridge at this point.

[ParagonAlpha]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

In my 24 years of gaming I'd have to say I seen my share of GM's who just don't understand balance. I've also been that GM.

 

The first Champs game I ever ran was designed to be a lead into the Deathstroke module (yeah I said Deathstroke). I wanted to inroduce SAT into the game (prior to this we had really only been doing "fights" there was no roleplaying really.)

 

I created an NPC cyborg assassin. Assassins are supposed to be good at combat so I gave the NPC a 55 DEX. Yeah that pretty much set the tone for that encounter. An 18 CV was way to much.

 

One of the players was notorious of throwing tantrums in the middle of sessions (His explosions were legendary and eventually the reason he was told not to show up for gaming) and he went nuts.

 

It took me a couple of years before I sat down behind the screen again.

[QueenOfItAll]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

Meh. Love conquers all.

 

In my experience, the one thing love "conquers" least often is being made to look like a fool, or the uncritical companion/supporter of a fool. Hence my observation.

[Maelstrom]

Re: What happens when a new GM doesn't understand game balance

 

In my experience' date=' the one thing love "conquers" least often is being made to look like a fool, or the uncritical companion/supporter of a fool. Hence my observation.[/quote']

 

Not quite sure what you mean. OTOH, I can't drag my wife away from Gruul's Lair long enough to play pen-and-paper games anymore.